443 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

Wraith 02 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

remydat wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

You could say the same for all the dialouge in this game. If you didn't hear Mordin sing because in your playthrough the convo that  led up to it didn't happen are you going to say Mordin sang anyway in your playthrough?

No I wouldn't because in that scenario Mordin does not sing.  Mordin singing is a future event.  You have to trigger dialogue to ensure that future event happens just like in real life I can avoid a future event by doing something to prevent that future event happenning.

Liara recovering your body is a PAST EVENT.  It has already occurred.  The only thing your dialogue option does is determine whether your Shep hears from Liara that she performed this past event.  As the event is past it cannot be changed.

You are pretending there is an alternate reality in which Liara did not recover the body and someone else did.  This is simply not true.  There are other events in the game that represent alternate realities depending on your choice but this is not one of them.  It is 100% that Liara recovers your body in all scenarios whether you choose to learn of this fact or not.

Stop whining and deal with it. It's not my fault the devs didn't care enough to put it in ME3. Or how about they add it the first time you talk to Liara instead of after an optional side mission or in optional DLC.

Pretty much everything in Mass Effect is optional, Even playing the game is optional

That doesn't mean you should ignore facts about a game that you are currently having a debate about

What debate am I having other than ppl like you being butthurt cause I said LOTSB wasn't my canon.

[KaiserShep]

The only aspect of LotSB that wouldn't be part of your canon is Shepard's assistance in taking the Shadow Broker down. Other than that, the mission still occurs, even if you never discuss it with Liara. Anything that excludes it entirely, including the reasons why Liara went after him in the first place, would be purely head-canon. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 17 juin 2013 - 09:22 .

[Anthadlas]

When you say...

Hazegurl wrote...

She doesn't have my Shep's armor in her creeper case nor did she recover his body and "save" him.

And then follow it up with

Hazegurl wrote...

No it didn't. It's not in my game at all so it didn't happen. I'm not telling everyone else what their canon should be. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

Most people will think that you are denying that it ever happened, Not that you are choosing to ignore the fact that it did.

Modifié par Wraith 02, 17 juin 2013 - 09:28 .

[Hazegurl]

Wraith 02 wrote...


When you say...

Hazegurl wrote...

She doesn't have my Shep's armor in her creeper case nor did she recover his body and "save" him.

And then follow it up with

Hazegurl wrote...

No it didn't. It's not in my game at all so it didn't happen. I'm not telling everyone else what their canon should be. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

Most people will think that you are denying that it ever happened, Not that you are choosing to ignore the fact that it did.

I highlighted very important pieces of my comments. "MY SHEP" "MY GAME"

case dismissed.

Marc Walter's Shepard is not my Shepard. This is pretty much my entire point.

edit: before this starts another argument. I'm not saying he's a bad writer etc. It's just that I consider my Shepard my own character. I've taken bits and peices they have written in game and used it to construct my own Shep as I'm sure every player has done for their own canon Sheps. If Marc or another writer wants to write an entire novel about Shepard, his past etc and have Liara as their LI. I don't see why I have to accept their version of Shepard as my own canon past and all when I'm given in-game options to avoid it. That's all.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 17 juin 2013 - 09:43 .

[KaiserShep]

So then it's head-canon. In my head-canon, EDI is rebuilt after the magic wave, because nuts to reality.

[remydat]

Wraith 02 wrote...

No It is not, the impact with the floor would be exactly the same, Shepards suit is built to survive in space and can land on planets with extreme temperatures, re-entry wouldn't affect it.

And several billion credits spent on advanced technology and 2 years spent rebuilding him seems to make that not much of an issue. Whether it is technically possible is irrelevent, it makes sense within the plot and is therefore not plot armor.

YET AGAIN do I really need to point out that Shepard didn't survive the fall? He was dead and his corpse hit the floor. I'm not even saying he survived it, I'm saying his body would remain intact and you can't prove otherwise.

And the point is you can't use surviving a fall from 33 thousand feet as proof of anything when mercenaries in suits routinely die from falls.  There is no reson to bring it up period.  It is irrelevant because most people die in real life and most people die in the game from falls from high places.

So the only thing that can be debated is whether his organs should have been turned damaged beyond repair or whether his suit could withstand the heat generated from re-entry.  The suit was in pieces.  We know this for a fact.  You want to pretend that it was cut off when it makes little sense to cut off the suit in an uncontrolled environment like Alchera which has a highly flammable atmosphere as it includes Methane and it has unknwon bacterium.  You don't risk contaminating the body further by cutting the armor open and exposing the body in that scenario.  And what would be the point of cutting the armor open on Alchera.  There is none.

So logically the armor likely broke apart on re-entry or on impact.  Shep's armor is not immune to heat.  There are various vents, fires, and lava you have to avoid because it is too hot.  Further if the armor broke on impact then there is little reason to believe his internal organs could survive that kind of trauma.

So again, it is a miracle dude.  A miracle.

[KaiserShep]

It'll be awesome when technology advances to the point when we can settle this argument by sending a cadaver up in a space suit and just dump it back into the atmosphere.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 17 juin 2013 - 09:37 .

[remydat]

Hazegurl wrote...

Stop whining and deal with it. It's not my fault the devs didn't care enough to put it in ME3. Or how about they add it the first time you talk to Liara instead of after an optional side mission or in optional DLC.

The keyword here is optional content and I am simply opting not to have it in my story. To those comparing it to a book, Don't compare it to a book. Books don't have optional content where you can pick and choose multiple dialouge between characters. (Unless it's a choose your own adventure book) If a past event happened in a book, it happened because the characters or narrator said so. Not "They said it or did it if you(the reader) pick this option here"

No one cares if you choose not to play it or you ignore.  You seemed to be suggesting that just because you ignore it, it means it did not happen.  That is logically ridiculous.  I simply pointed out why it is ridiculous and you tried to compare Mordin singing or not singing in the future to Liara recovering your body in the past as if time does not exist.

Liara recovering the body happens before the game starts.  There is no way for you to change that because the media it happens in is not interactive.  You don't get a choice in the matter.  That is not whining.  That is a fact.  You are the only one getting upset by people making factual statements to you.

Now, if you only point is that in your personal headcanon, you pretend it never happened then so be it.

Modifié par remydat, 17 juin 2013 - 09:46 .

[Hazegurl]

KaiserShep wrote...

So then it's head-canon. In my head-canon, EDI is rebuilt after the magic wave, because nuts to reality.

Well considering the fact that her name is on the death wall (see confirmed ingame) then it would be pretty much just you using headcanon, but whocares. *shrug* if it makes you feel good do it.

[Hazegurl]

remydat wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Stop whining and deal with it. It's not my fault the devs didn't care enough to put it in ME3. Or how about they add it the first time you talk to Liara instead of after an optional side mission or in optional DLC.

The keyword here is optional content and I am simply opting not to have it in my story. To those comparing it to a book, Don't compare it to a book. Books don't have optional content where you can pick and choose multiple dialouge between characters. (Unless it's a choose your own adventure book) If a past event happened in a book, it happened because the characters or narrator said so. Not "They said it or did it if you(the reader) pick this option here"

No one cares if you choose not to play it or you ignore.  You seemed to be suggesting that just because you ignore it, it means it did not happen.  That is logically ridiculous.  I simply pointed out why it is ridiculous and you tried to compare Mordin singing or not singing in the future to Liara recovering your body in the past as if time does not exist.

Liara recovering the body happens before the game starts.  There is no way for you to change that because the media it happens in is not interactive.  You don't get a choice in the matter.  That is not whining.  That is a fact.  You are the only one getting upset by people making factual statements to you.

Blah blah. The devs gave me leeway to ignore that shyt, so the shyt is getting ignored. cry to the devs or something so they can add it to the 1001 things ME fans already cry about.

[remydat]

Hazegurl wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

So then it's head-canon. In my head-canon, EDI is rebuilt after the magic wave, because nuts to reality.

Well considering the fact that her name is on the death wall (see confirmed ingame) then it would be pretty much just you using headcanon, but whocares. *shrug* if it makes you feel good do it.

Yeah but as long as Kaiser doesn't watch the wall scene, problem solved using your logic

[Anthadlas]

remydat wrote...

And the point is you can't use surviving a fall from 33 thousand feet as proof of anything when mercenaries in suits routinely die from falls.  There is no reson to bring it up period.  It is irrelevant because most people die in real life and most people die in the game from falls from
high places.

Shepard was dead...
Name one example ingame when a fall in an armored suit has ended with the body being unsalvagable.

remydat wrote...

So the only thing that can be debated is whether his organs should have been turned damaged beyond repair or whether his suit could withstand the heat generated from re-entry.  The suit was in pieces.  We know this
for a fact.

Proof? There is no evidence that the suit was in pieces as a direct result of impact,

remydat wrote...

So logically the armor likely broke apart on re-entry or on impact.

Assumption.

remydat wrote...

Shep's armor is not immune to heat.  There are various vents, fires, and lava you have to avoid because it is too hot.

Wrong, Shepards kinetic barriers are not immune to heat, There has never been an ingame example of armor being damaged by heat.

Furthermore in the first game you can land on planets and use your armor to survive in conditions where the atmosphere is several thousand degrees centigrade.

remydat wrote...

Further if the armor broke on impact then there is little reason to believe his internal organs could survive that kind of trauma.

They didn't have to survive, thats what the billions of credits and advanced cybernetic technology was spent to fix.

No matter how much you argue this point it doesn't change the fact that this is not impossible within the plot and therefore is not a case of plot armor

Modifié par Wraith 02, 17 juin 2013 - 09:57 .

[remydat]

Wraith,

There is no example of anyone in the game other than Shep being brought back to life so that is irrelevant.  No one else is treated like Jesus.

Legion has a piece of Shep's armor that he got from the crash site not a Cerberus Lab. That is precisely the point of me explaining why it makes no sense for them to cut the armor on Alchera. That is the only place it could have been cut in order for Legion to have a piece. So the only logical conclusion is it broke off as a result of re-entry or the impact. Now of course, you will invent some implausible reason for it to be cut off on Alchera despite not really believing it was.

If you fall in lava on the mako or firestorm, you die. Lava is 2200 degrees Farenheit.  Yo die.  Now let's pretend your armor remains perfectly intact because we don't see it burning up.

Plot armor does not have to be impossible. Liara never encounters a situation that is impossible for her to survive. Doesn't stop people calling it plot armor.  Shep is Space Jesus.

Modifié par remydat, 17 juin 2013 - 10:05 .

[Anthadlas]

Modifié par Wraith 02, 17 juin 2013 - 10:18 .

[Anthadlas]

remydat wrote...

Wraith,

There is no example of anyone in the game other than Shep being brought back to life so that is
irrelevant.  No one else is treated like Jesus.

Shepard is still an example, you still haven't produced a single example of a body falling from orbit being completely unsalvagable.

remydat wrote...
Legion has a piece of Shep's armor that he got from the crash site not a Cerberus Lab. That is precisely the point of me explaining why it makes no sense for them to cut the armor on Alchera. That is the only place
it could have been cut in order for Legion to have a piece. So the only logical conclusion is it broke off as a result of re-entry or the impact. Now of course, you will invent some implausible reason for it to be cut off on Alchera despite not really believing it was.

I never said it was cut of on Alchera.
Legion only had a shoulder piece, it isn't integral to the suits structure and doesn't prove your point that the suit shattered on impact.

remydat wrote...
If you fall in lava on the mako or firestorm, you die. Lava is 2200 degrees Farenheit.  Yo die.  Now let's pretend your armor remains perfectly intact because we don't see it burning up.

Fall in lava in a mako and you will die, due to the heat. Yet the Mako shows no signs of melting and neither does the suit. And dying from heat exposure means nothing to a corpse falling from orbit that is already dead, so long as the suit is sealed and the body doesn't combust heat wouldn't affect it.

remydat wrote...
Plot armor does not have to be impossible. Liara never encounters a situation that is impossible for her to survive. Doesn't stop people calling it plot armor.  Shep is Space Jesus.

Definition of Plot Armor

A mysterious force that prevents characters that are integral to a game's plot from dying or being killed by forces
that would normally kill a person.

Shepard did die, It is therefore not plot armor

Modifié par Wraith 02, 17 juin 2013 - 10:19 .

[KaiserShep]

remydat wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

So then it's head-canon. In my head-canon, EDI is rebuilt after the magic wave, because nuts to reality.

Well considering the fact that her name is on the death wall (see confirmed ingame) then it would be pretty much just you using headcanon, but whocares. *shrug* if it makes you feel good do it.

Yeah but as long as Kaiser doesn't watch the wall scene, problem solved using your logic

I have terrible eyesight. Myopia saves the day. 

[Hazegurl]

remydat wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

So then it's head-canon. In my head-canon, EDI is rebuilt after the magic wave, because nuts to reality.

Well considering the fact that her name is on the death wall (see confirmed ingame) then it would be pretty much just you using headcanon, but whocares. *shrug* if it makes you feel good do it.

Yeah but as long as Kaiser doesn't watch the wall scene, problem solved using your logic

It's not the same logic. I'm talking about optional in game content. Turning away from the screen and not seeing EDI's name is just the player's own mistake or simply them not paying attention to what is presented in front of them and nothing the devs had anything to do with. That's just like saying the reapers didn't exist because I turned my head everytime they came up on screen. But I'm sure this logic would fly right over your head.

Let's end this now. Give me non optional content where it is stated in game that Liara recovered shepard's body and saved him. Auto dialouge from either Shepard or Liara, TIM or Miranda, Hackett or Anderson etc acknowledging this without optional side quests or optional DLC. I will certainly concede and say that whether I like it or not she did this to my Shepard in my game and perhaps I either forgot or didn't hear it etc. I don't care, it would simply be my own mistake for not paying attention to what the game presented in front of me. But if I have to do [X side quest here] or [pick dialouge X] to get it. Then guess what. Optional ingame content is all it is, in which case, complain to the devs.

[Soggy-Snake-]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

Liara, definitely, as she appears in all three games, is a squadmate for two (all three if you include LotSB), and can never be put in a position where she will die until the endrun, where it no longer has any significance (and you have to have a specific EMS rating that will effectively cripple or doom the rest of the galaxy).

However, there are differing degrees of plot armor. There's the kind where they are protected for story reasons (not being able to kill Saren on Virmire), where they're protected for plot reasons (why Shepard never meets with the Illusive Man in person until the finale), where they're protected by the option not existing (not being able to defect from the Alliance in ME3), and then the detrimental plot armor, the kind that gives a feeling of preferential treatment on the part of the writers, and, as a result, that writer preference makes players dislike that character - every returning squadmate has a point in ME3 where they can die, except Liara and Garrus, and Garrus at least could have been killed in the Suicide Mission. That protection makes it so that the writers use her more often because she's a guaranteed variable, but to anyone playing who is not as fond of her character, it becomes the writers shoving her on the players, at the expense of other characters who the player is more interested and invested in. That's how it's detrimental for Liara, and because of that detriment, that's why she gets my vote.

Pretty much this.

[jtav]

The comics are part of the same continuity as the games. Liara met up with Miranda and an ex-SB agent to recover Shepard's corpse from the SB. Feron was captured. Liara handed the body over to Cerberus. This all happened, just as stopping Saren and Lazarus happened in a non-import game of ME3. The game never contradicts this. Ergo, it is canon.

[remydat]

Wraith 02 wrote...

Shepard is still an example, you still haven't produced a single example of a body falling from orbit being completely unsalvagable.

I never said it was cut of on Alchera.
Legion only had a shoulder piece, it isn't integral to the suits structure and doesn't prove your point that the suit shattered on impact.

Fall in lava in a mako and you will die, due to the heat. Yet the Mako shows no signs of melting and neither does the suit. And dying from heat exposure means nothing to a corpse falling from orbit that is already dead, so long as the suit is sealed and the body doesn't combust heat wouldn't affect it.

Definition of Plot Armor

A mysterious force that prevents characters that are integral to a game's plot from dying or being killed by forces
that would normally kill a person.

Shepard did die, It is therefore not plot armor

Asking me for another example of an unsalvageable body in a game when only one person every fell from space and was ressurrected is disingenuous.   The fact it only happens once in the known galaxy is evidence of its miraculous nature.

Any force that could break off a shoulder piece is likely enough to cause significant trauma to internal organs.  

You really think the Mako does not melt?  It's just Bioware not investing time to show it melting.  Further, if you are dying from that level of heat your organs and body would be getting cooked.

Shep was ressurected so he didn't stay dead. The only confirmed ressurection in the MEU of being dead for a prolonged period of time.  Plot armor.  Dying is meaningless if you don't actually stay dead, lol.

[remydat]

Hazegurl wrote...

It's not the same logic. I'm talking about optional in game content. Turning away from the screen and not seeing EDI's name is just the player's own mistake or simply them not paying attention to what is presented in front of them and nothing the devs had anything to do with. That's just like saying the reapers didn't exist because I turned my head everytime they came up on screen. But I'm sure this logic would fly right over your head.

Let's end this now. Give me non optional content where it is stated in game that Liara recovered shepard's body and saved him. Auto dialouge from either Shepard or Liara, TIM or Miranda, Hackett or Anderson etc acknowledging this without optional side quests or optional DLC. I will certainly concede and say that whether I like it or not she did this to my Shepard in my game and perhaps I either forgot or didn't hear it etc. I don't care, it would simply be my own mistake for not paying attention to what the game presented in front of me. But if I have to do [X side quest here] or [pick dialouge X] to get it. Then guess what. Optional ingame content is all it is, in which case, complain to the devs.

Watching the complete ending of the game is just as optional as dialogue choices.  The memorial is at the very end of the ending sequence.  I cut off my game long before it comes on after my first playthrough.

But this is the point.  The recovery of the body occurs prior in an outside media that you have no control over.  There is few years gap between the opening scene and Shep waking up and in that gap a comic in which you the reader have no ability to change established that Liara recovered the body.  There is no other choice provided to you during this gap period.  None.

Whether you discover this fact in game or not does not change a fixed event in time and space.  What part of this don't you understand?  Yesterday something happened in the world you are not aware of.  It still happened whether you become aware of it or not after the fact.  You seem to be confused by the fact the game gives you options but the canon comic that establishes Liara saving Shep does not.

Modifié par remydat, 17 juin 2013 - 11:26 .

[Hazegurl]

remydat wrote...

snipped

So you don't have proof besides optional content. okay.

*last reply on this super derailed topic*:innocent:

[jtav]

The comic is not optional content, or rather it's no more optional than playing past games.