443 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

Hazegurl wrote...

remydat wrote...

snipped

So you don't have proof besides optional content. okay.

*last reply on this super derailed topic*:innocent:

Saying a comic that establishes canon is optional is the same as me saying buying ME1, ME2, or ME3 is optional.  Canon is canon whether you choose to buy it or not.

jtav wrote...

The comic is not optional content, or rather it's no more optional than playing past games.

Yeah this is the most convoluted logic I have ever come across, lol.

Modifié par remydat, 18 juin 2013 - 12:21 .

[Anthadlas]

remydat wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

Shepard is still an example, you still haven't produced a single example of a body falling from orbit being completely unsalvagable.

I never said it was cut of on Alchera.
Legion only had a shoulder piece, it isn't integral to the suits structure and doesn't prove your point that the suit shattered on impact.

Fall in lava in a mako and you will die, due to the heat. Yet the Mako shows no signs of melting and neither does the suit. And dying from heat exposure means nothing to a corpse falling from orbit that is already dead, so long as the suit is sealed and the body doesn't combust heat wouldn't affect it.

Definition of Plot Armor

A mysterious force that prevents characters that are integral to a game's plot from dying or being killed by forces
that would normally kill a person.

Shepard did die, It is therefore not plot armor

Asking me for another example of an unsalvageable body in a game when only one person every fell from space and was ressurrected is disingenuous.   The fact it only happens once in the known galaxy is evidence of its miraculous nature.

Any force that could break off a shoulder piece is likely enough to cause significant trauma to internal organs.  

You really think the Mako does not melt?  It's just Bioware not investing time to show it melting.  Further, if you are dying from that level of heat your organs and body would be getting cooked.

Shep was ressurected so he didn't stay dead. The only confirmed ressurection in the MEU of being dead for a prolonged period of time.  Plot armor.  Dying is meaningless if you don't actually stay dead, lol.

Again in a game where you said so many mercs fall and die from heights
you cannot find a single example where the body wouldn't land intact?
doesn't have to be from space, so long as it is at terminal velocity it
makes no difference.

Seems this discussion is pointless until you actually find some evidence to backup your baseless claims

[remydat]

Wraith 02 wrote...

Again in a game where you said so many mercs fall and die from heights
you cannot find a single example where the body wouldn't land intact?
doesn't have to be from space, so long as it is at terminal velocity it
makes no difference.

Seems this discussion is pointless until you actually find some evidence to backup your baseless claims

Pretty sure when a body falls from a height, it means I am at the top and I don't go to the bottom and investigate it.  Nor do I perform autopsies to check the state of their internal organs.  If you have an example of someone being thrown off a building and dying and the game allowing me to go investigate the body and remove the armor let me know.

If you don't then it proves nothing except that the game is not concerned with the fallen bodies of anyone other than Space Jesus.

Not to mention, I think most of the people that die from falls or being thrown off stuff don't even reach terminal velocity as they probably don't fall from a high enough height yet they still die.  Again, being Space Jesus is a good thing.

Space Jesus can also wake up during Arrival, take two bullets to the face or dodge them at point blank range and then one punch knockout two mercs wearing helmets by punching them in the those helmets with bare hands and no biotics.

Modifié par remydat, 18 juin 2013 - 12:38 .

[Anthadlas]

remydat wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

Again in a game where you said so many mercs fall and die from heights
you cannot find a single example where the body wouldn't land intact?
doesn't have to be from space, so long as it is at terminal velocity it
makes no difference.

Seems this discussion is pointless until you actually find some evidence to backup your baseless claims

Pretty sure when a body falls from a height, it means I am at the top and I don't go to the bottom and investigate it.  Nor do I perform autopsies to check the state of their internal organs.  If you have an example of someone being thrown off a building and dying and the game allowing me to go investigate the body and remove the armor let me know.

If you don't then it proves nothing except that the game is not concerned with the fallen bodies of anyone other than Space Jesus.

Not to mention, I think most of the people that die from falls or being thrown off stuff don't even reach terminal velocity as they probably don't fall from a high enough height yet they still die.  Again, being Space Jesus is a good thing.

Space Jesus can also wake up during Arrival, take two bullets to the face or dodge them at point blank range and then one punch knockout two mercs wearing helmets by punching them in the those helmets with bare hands and no biotics.

So you have no proof?

So far in this scenario Shepards body re-enters the atmosphere and is exposed to extreme heat, which i can prove he survives as his suit can withstand extreme heat on hostile planets in the first ME game. Thats without even considering that the planets atmosphere is thinner than earths and produce less resistance.

Then his body hits the floor, which you claim would shatter his armor without any proof, just seeing a few pieces of armor in Liara's and Legion's possession and assuming thats what happened. Where as I can prove that Shepards suit is capable of withstanding mass effect rounds, missiles and was even biotically kicked to the floor out a window in LOTSB and didn't even crack or get marked. Again not even considering that the planets gravity was also less than Earths

Then you claim his body would disintergrate on impact to the point where billions of credits and cybernetic enhancements would not be able to repair it, despite the fact that people have fell from altitude WITHOUT armor and survived the fall, and even if they didn't, The water content of the body absorbs the impact and the skin keeps the body intact so Cerberus would actually be able to repair the damage even if his armor didn't protect for some unproven reason.

Your assumptions are all very nice but without any kind of tangible proof they are simply that, assumptions

And if your going to make assumptions then ponder the fact that Shepards body may have even landed in snow or water or it may have remained in orbit and not even hit the planet at all, thus making your arguement even more baseless

Modifié par Wraith 02, 18 juin 2013 - 01:16 .

[remydat]

http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Alchera

Planet's atmosphere is thicker than Earth and includes the highly flammable Methane and Amonnia. And no you cannot prove it because we don't know the heat involved in the ME1` scenarios and re-entry into Alchera.

I said pieces broke off because that is the only way for Legion to have a piece since he got his piece on Alchera. And the fact all those things happen to his armor and he does not sustain a crack but Legion gets a piece from Alchera as a result of either a piece coming apart on reentry or impact just proves that it was subjected to something greater than the examples you list in game.

And no one claimed anything about his body disintegrating on impact. I said it would likely be mush in reference to his internal organs. And the fact that .00001% of people have survived a fall when 99.99999% do not many of which suffer massive internal injuries proves nothing except the person who survies was a fluke.

You have no tangible proof of anything either because the game does not tell us or show us enough for you to have it. You are just relying on the fact that highly remote things like people suriving falls has happened before so let's ignore that 99.99999% of the time they don't and they sustain massive internal injuries.

Modifié par remydat, 18 juin 2013 - 01:07 .

[Anthadlas]

remydat wrote...

http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Alchera

Planet's atmosphere is thicker than Earth and includes the highly flammable Methane and Amonnia. And no you cannot prove it because we don't know the heat involved in the ME1` scenarios and re-entry into Alchera.

I said pieces broke off because that is the only way for Legion to have a piece since he got his piece on Alchera. And the fact all those things happen to his armor and he does not sustain a crack but Legion gets a piece from Alchera as a result of either a piece coming apart on reentry or impact just proves that it was subjected to something greater than the examples you list in game.

And no one claimed anything about his body disintegrating on impact. I said it would likely be mush in reference to his internal organs. And the fact that .00001% of people have survived a fall when 99.99999% do not many of which suffer massive internal injuries proves nothing except the person who survies was a fluke.

You have no tangible proof of anything either because the game does not tell us or show us enough for you to have it. You are just relying on the fact that highly remote things like people suriving falls has happened before so let's ignore that 99.99999% of the time they don't and they sustain massive internal injuries.

Atm. Pressure - 0.83 atm
That is less than Earth
Surface Gravity - 0.85 g
That is less than Earth's

Don't even bother arguing if the evidence you do manage to bring forwards is completely wrong and you have no grasp of Physics

Modifié par Wraith 02, 18 juin 2013 - 01:21 .

[Eckswhyzed]

remydat wrote...

http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Alchera

Planet's atmosphere is thicker than Earth and includes the highly flammable Methane and Amonnia. And no you cannot prove it because we don't know the heat involved in the ME1` scenarios and re-entry into Alchera.

I said pieces broke off because that is the only way for Legion to have a piece since he got his piece on Alchera. And the fact all those things happen to his armor and he does not sustain a crack but Legion gets a piece from Alchera as a result of either a piece coming apart on reentry or impact just proves that it was subjected to something greater than the examples you list in game.

And no one claimed anything about his body disintegrating on impact. I said it would likely be mush in reference to his internal organs. And the fact that .00001% of people have survived a fall when 99.99999% do not many of which suffer massive internal injuries proves nothing except the person who survies was a fluke.

You have no tangible proof of anything either because the game does not tell us or show us enough for you to have it. You are just relying on the fact that highly remote things like people suriving falls has happened before so let's ignore that 99.99999% of the time they don't and they sustain massive internal injuries.

Pretty much this.

Falling out a window is VERY different than falling from orbit. The presence of the N7 armor Legion is what clinches it for me. If we could establish that Shepard landed with armour intact I could handwave his/her survival by saying kinetic barriers, shock absorption etc.

Like Remy says, the fact that Legion has part of his armour means that it must have broken apart either during re-entry or on impact - Legion sure didn't get the armour off the Shadow Broker or Cerberus. Any impact forceful enough to split the armour would have been likely to instantly kill whoever's inside.

Is it a huge plothole? No, not really. By the standards of all 3 games I can overlook it easily enough.

[Eckswhyzed]

Wraith 02 wrote...

Atm. Pressure - 0.83 atm
That is less than Earth
Surface Gravity - 0.85 g
That is less than Earth's

These numbers are irrelevant. The fact is that Shepard had a velocity high enough to break their armour open upon impact.

[Anthadlas]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

Atm. Pressure - 0.83 atm
That is less than Earth
Surface Gravity - 0.85 g
That is less than Earth's

These numbers are irrelevant. The fact is that Shepard had a velocity high enough to break their armour open upon impact.

Broken armor means nothing, in much the same way a broken crumple zone on a car does, just because it may have broken doesn't mean it's kinetic barriers and the actual armor didn't absorb impact

Plus there is still no proof that it was the impact that was the direct cause for a shoulderplate to break off

Modifié par Wraith 02, 18 juin 2013 - 01:32 .

[David7204]

There's no hard evidence of that. More likely that Legion pulled the plate off a spare suit of armor.

You don't think you helmet you find on Alchera is the same one Shepard was wearing?

Modifié par David7204, 18 juin 2013 - 01:31 .

[Anthadlas]

Also worth pointing out

http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Patashi

An explorable planet in ME1 using just your suit you can survive temps over 500 degrees

[remydat]

Wraith 02 wrote...

Atm. Pressure - 0.83 atm
That is less than Earth
Surface Gravity - 0.85 g
That is less than Earth's

Don't even bother arguing if the evidence you do manage to bring forwards is completely wrong and you have no grasp of Physics

Being a fraction less than earth man matters very little.  Especially when the atmosphere consists of two highly flammable and explosive gases.  If you were falling at 200 mph as an examaple then it would be 170 mph if gravity was 15% less all other things being equal.

[David7204]

That's incorrect.

If you've been falling for the same amount of TIME, yes.

If you've been falling for the same amount of DISTANCE (which is what we're considering and what's important), no.

Modifié par David7204, 18 juin 2013 - 03:09 .

[remydat]

Wraith 02 wrote...
Broken armor means nothing, in much the same way a broken crumple zone on a car does, just because it may have broken doesn't mean it's kinetic barriers and the actual armor didn't absorb impact

Plus there is still no proof that it was the impact that was the direct cause for a shoulderplate to break off

Right you went on and on about all the types of high velocity impacts Shep has taken sometimes without even a stratch on his armor and suddenly armor sustaining some damage that it broke off means nothing.

[KaiserShep]

I guess you guys missed the tug o war contest Legion and Liara had over which parts of the armor they got to keep.

[remydat]

KaiserShep wrote...

I guess you guys missed the tug o war contest Legion and Liara had over which parts of the armor they got to keep.

Clearly Liara won though, lol.

[Anthadlas]

remydat wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...
Broken armor means nothing, in much the same way a broken crumple zone on a car does, just because it may have broken doesn't mean it's kinetic barriers and the actual armor didn't absorb impact

Plus there is still no proof that it was the impact that was the direct cause for a shoulderplate to break off

Right you went on and on about all the types of high velocity impacts Shep has taken sometimes without even a stratch on his armor and suddenly armor sustaining some damage that it broke off means nothing.

Do you have evidence that Legion didn't remove it from Shepards dead body?

[Anthadlas]

remydat wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

Atm. Pressure - 0.83 atm
That is less than Earth
Surface Gravity - 0.85 g
That is less than Earth's

Don't even bother arguing if the evidence you do manage to bring forwards is completely wrong and you have no grasp of Physics

Being a fraction less than earth man matters very little.  Especially when the atmosphere consists of two highly flammable and explosive gases.  If you were falling at 200 mph as an examaple then it would be 170 mph if gravity was 15% less all other things being equal.

Thats right, Ignore all the important facts because they don't back up your idiotic theories. Doesn't matter if it's only 15% less, it is still less and not dismissable.

And exactly what difference does it make that the gases in the atmosphere are flammable? Oxygen is also flammable....

That doesn't mean his body is going to suddenly explode into flames upon re-entry, ur thinking about comets which are going extremely fast when they enter the atmosphere. Not a body falling from a stationary postition back down to a planet at low speed.

And before you dismiss that in another baseless attempt,
Dev quote

Dusty Everman wrote...

I just want to give a comment about the Normandy SR-1 or Shepard burning up in the atmosphere.<br />
<br />
We
usually think of re-entry into an atmosphere as a massive event of heat
and fire. This is due to the speeds of the object entering the
atmosphere. Meteors fly in at amazing speeds. For example, the Leonid
shooting stars hit the earth at more than 160000 mph. Space vessels and
satellites orbit the earth at speeds from 6000 mph to 18000 mph. This
is obviously much faster than terminal velocity, so the atmosphere slows
down the object with a friction that generates the intense heat.<br
/>
<br />
The Normandy wasn’t in orbit around that
planet. After the combat that occurred, the ship was relatively at a
standstill above the planet. The ship and Shepard did a free fall
straight down into the planet

Modifié par Wraith 02, 18 juin 2013 - 06:41 .

[silverexile17s]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

remydat wrote...

http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Alchera

Planet's atmosphere is thicker than Earth and includes the highly flammable Methane and Amonnia. And no you cannot prove it because we don't know the heat involved in the ME1` scenarios and re-entry into Alchera.

I said pieces broke off because that is the only way for Legion to have a piece since he got his piece on Alchera. And the fact all those things happen to his armor and he does not sustain a crack but Legion gets a piece from Alchera as a result of either a piece coming apart on reentry or impact just proves that it was subjected to something greater than the examples you list in game.

And no one claimed anything about his body disintegrating on impact. I said it would likely be mush in reference to his internal organs. And the fact that .00001% of people have survived a fall when 99.99999% do not many of which suffer massive internal injuries proves nothing except the person who survies was a fluke.

You have no tangible proof of anything either because the game does not tell us or show us enough for you to have it. You are just relying on the fact that highly remote things like people suriving falls has happened before so let's ignore that 99.99999% of the time they don't and they sustain massive internal injuries.

Pretty much this.

Falling out a window is VERY different than falling from orbit. The presence of the N7 armor Legion is what clinches it for me. If we could establish that Shepard landed with armour intact I could handwave his/her survival by saying kinetic barriers, shock absorption etc.

Like Remy says, the fact that Legion has part of his armour means that it must have broken apart either during re-entry or on impact - Legion sure didn't get the armour off the Shadow Broker or Cerberus. Any impact forceful enough to split the armour would have been likely to instantly kill whoever's inside.

Is it a huge plothole? No, not really. By the standards of all 3 games I can overlook it easily enough.

Let me remind everyone of something -- Shepard DID fall all the way to Alchera's surface because we find the Commander's N7 helmet in the wrekage -- which is pretty damn intact for surviving an orbital, or at the very least, sub-orbital impact. And is also stated in ME3 as being on Shepard's body ("the helmet kept the brain intact" as said by the scientist.) all the way up intil Shepard's body came to rest. This is indicitive of the fact that Shepard's helmet was on the Commander's body the entire way down, else the brain would not have been intact. Meaning that since the Helmet is on Alchera, Shepard's body made it all the way down to the surface.   Meaning that, because there is physical proof (the N7 Helmet) that Shepard fell all the way back down. And was pretty damn intact. So I can understand where Wraith was coming from.
However, Shepard actually being able to survive is something that is freaking impossible unless Alchera has zero atmosphere. But, we know it does have atmosphere because Miranda mentions re-entry burns all over Shepard's body from the free-fall, and we see the St. Alimo's fire swathing Shep's body on the way back down. Although you wouldn't know it to look at the armor itself.
Also, Legion says that he recovered Shepard's chestplate from the Normandy's actual wreck, which is crashed into the ground, not floating in space.

Also, @Wraith 02, sorry to break this to you, but, unless Feron was being melodramatic in his recounting, the Broker had to scrape  Shepard's body back together, indicating that the Commander likely lost two of his/her limbs and likely part of his/her torso, either upper or lower, upon impact. Also, K-Barriers are programed to protect against high-velocity projectiles. They are spicifically tuned to not regester against blunt or imobile objects -- like the surface of an incoming planet. The suit V.I. is programmed to only recognize projectiles as a danger. Giant masses, or blunt surfaces, like a planet, don't regester, or pick up.
And besides, in terms of impact, hitting Alcera's surface would be like taking an M-920 Cain round full-on to the face. Which would kill you instantly if the way you're squad-mates in ME3 drop if caught in the blast-radius is any indication. Also, since you have planatary rotation to figure in, you would skid like a comet hitting the ground, causing friction damage and so-forth. So, yeah -- not a snowball's chance in hell that Shep could have lived through that.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 18 juin 2013 - 07:48 .

[silverexile17s]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

Atm. Pressure - 0.83 atm
That is less than Earth
Surface Gravity - 0.85 g
That is less than Earth's

These numbers are irrelevant. The fact is that Shepard had a velocity high enough to break their armour open upon impact.

The simple fact is that is not possible for Shepard's body to be in any recoverable state from such an impact, let alone in a survivalbe condition- it's a plot hole. Now, we know for a fact that Shepard made it all the way down to the planet because the Commander's N7 helmet is there -- which the scientists of Cerberus note is what kept the brain intact. We also know that according to Miranda's analysis from the recovery, Shepard sustained major burns over a majority of his/her body from re-entry -- meaning that Shepard travaled fast enough to be severly burned by the atmosphere upon re-entry. She also notes that there was sever celluar breakdown from damage caused by extreme cold and vacume of space-esposure, meaning that Shep's armor was breached well before impact and was in no condition to survive re-entry and impact. No offence to @Wraith 02, but I actually agree with you @Eckswhyzed -- I don't think Shep surviving re-entry is possible.

However, I must admit that I feel those statistics are relevent, as those gasses would ignite easier from something like the  burning wreck of the Normandy, meaning that once something organic lights up, it likely will keep burning until there is nothing to burn.
Atmospheric pressure and gravity are completely relevent, as it is a major difference in in the degree of orbital trajectory -- less gravaty + less atmospheric pressure means that something could spend a longer time free-falling then it would on Earth. Atmospheric composition is important in this too, because some gasses are heaver then others, acting as a better or worse cushion depending on what type of gas there is. I note that once again, remy has tried using Earth experances as a comparason for completely alien environments under the belief that every world is like Earth. I can understand where @wrath 02 is comming from on that -- even though I don't agree with that.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 18 juin 2013 - 07:45 .

[silverexile17s]

Hazegurl wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

jtav wrote...

The events of Redemption happen whether you like it or not. Liara recovered Shepard's body and handed it over to Cerberus. You can't control how Liara feels about you, but you can control how Shepard feels about her.

No it didn't. It's not in my game at all so it didn't happen. I'm not telling everyone else what their canon should be. <_<

No you can't really control how Shep feels about Liara. I've seen complaints about a non romanced Shepard acting like he's attracted to her in the Citadel DLC, forced hugs in ME2. You can only control how close you want her to be to your Shep (Not confiding in her after the dreams, telling her to keep it professional)and of course you can control how you, the player, feel about her.

Well, actually, when you ask Liara what the reason she hates the Borker is - right after the second terminal-hacking quest you do for her -- she responds by giving what is basically a word-for-word recounting of Redemption -- she gives Shepard to Cerberus after taking the Commander's body back from the Broker, who was going to sell it to the Collectors. Feron sacrifices himself to ensure she escapes. Hell, Tazzik -- the burly salarian merc -- is even refrenced by name in an E-Mail between Feron and Liara in ME3.
So, according to the in-game, Redemption is a cannon occourance. It happens behind the scenes, but it's cannon.

Also, I think the fact that Liara is a romance option in ME3 is supposed to hint to her always loving Shepard and never being able to bury those feelings. A romance with her is optional, but I think they were trying to hint at her always having feelings of attachement, no matter who you were with. Even at the end of ME3, she asks to share memories with you -- something usually only done between "close friends" or bondmates. As far as I know, Liara is the only squadmate aside from the Virmire survivor that can be romanced in both ME1 and ME3, and the only one that is shown to have strong feelings of attachment to Shepard in ME2 to the point of trusting Cerberus with the Commander in exchange for a possible ressurection.

I know the dialouge is mentioned if you do the hacker quest. But I don't do it and therefore its not in my game hence why I don't count it as my canon now if she had recounted the story in ME3 when I talked to her about how she managed to become the SB, I would totally accept it. But I don't care if it's everyone elses canon. Telling me that is also my canon story based on the dialouge being attainable is like saying curing the genophage is my canon by virtue of the option being there. Well if I didn't cure the genophage then it isn't my canon.  You might as well say ALL the dialouge options is everyone's canon whether they've chosen it or not but that kinda defeats the point of having a canon story to begin with.

As for Liara's feelings. I totally get it and I don't think there is anything wrong with Liara having feelings for Shepard regardless of who he is with. That's just a natural part of life. I just don't get why the devs try to force the player Shepard to feel the same way towards her. I would actually find Liara far more enduring if she had these feelings without the devs trying to push a Shepard who doesn't feel the same way onto her. Honestly, I blame the devs far more than Liara. She's a good character and I enjoyed talking to her in ME1. I find it a shame that the devs would try to force a "cosmic connection" with her though. I guess you could say that I'm hating the devs headcanon more than anything.

Problem is, even if you don't get the conversation, it's still cannon. Like if you don't find out Anderson was a spectre cannidate, it doesn't erase the fact that it happened. The only difference is that you don't know about it, but the truth is that everything in the books is pretty damn cannon. Unless the devs themselves say so (Deception book).
The events are completely cannon. Not knowing about Miranda wanting a chip in Spehard's brain does not make it non-cannon. If the diolouge and choices are there, they are representations of established cannon, You can only choose wheather or not to learn about it, but you are basically powerless to ignore or deny it -- it's the game's lore.
And again, curing the genophage is a completely seperate thing from this -- it literally has nothing to do with what I just said. Curing the genophage is an action of Shepard -- an action that is cannon only if you chose it to be. However, the recovery of Shepard's body -- that is an action that took place without you're imput, and thus is unchangable by you or your actions -- making it "set cannon" -- a factual occourance in the universe that happenes no matter what you do. Shepard's choices are "open cannon" where what Shepard does is cannon only if you want it to be. But actions that took place without you -- that's "set cannon" where the event stays the same and always happenes no matter what.

[CynicalShep]

@ Hazegurl: Saren killing Nihlus is not cannon. We only see him pointing the gun at him but then the cut-scene stops. I recon Nihlus might have killed himself because he couldn't save all the colonists and Saren became the villain because he experienced the suicide of his good friend. He even says as much in the dialogue with the council. Hurrdurr

[KaiserShep]

Technically the dock worker confirms it no matter what

[MassivelyEffective0730]

CynicalShep wrote...

@ Hazegurl: Saren killing Nihlus is not cannon. We only see him pointing the gun at him but then the cut-scene stops. I recon Nihlus might have killed himself because he couldn't save all the colonists and Saren became the villain because he experienced the suicide of his good friend. He even says as much in the dialogue with the council. Hurrdurr

For a second, I almost took your post seriously.

Don't ever change.