52 réponses à ce sujet

[Fixers0]

Most of the big choices only end up making superficial differences, A good example is mordin's loyalty mission, Regardless of what you end up doing with Mealon's research non of the major events are substanciall altered, and instead, the entire decision is sidelined, same goes for the Rachni, or the Collector base decisions. None of the choices actully manage the change the context of the events and mostly serve a stylistic purpose.

[Bleachrude]

What are you talking about....Ashley CAN be talked down during the coup. I'm refering to the fact that if the VS dies during the coup, there are multiple "final words" depending on your actions before. Ashely says something differently if it is the original council, something different again if you never visisted her and were an ass to her during Mars etc.

As I said before, the final battle in most RPGs are independent of your decisions beforehand...You will ALWAYS defeat the final boss irrespective of your choice unless there was a fail path (as mentioned in another thread...the only time I remember this is in the Wing Cmdr franchise and that's going back to the 80s).

How you surmount the final problem (the three choices in Deus Ex:HR or say who takes the final blow against the archdemon) is what is diferent

[Bleachrude]

Fixers0 wrote...

Most of the big choices only end up making superficial differences, A good example is mordin's loyalty mission, Regardless of what you end up doing with Mealon's research non of the major events are substanciall altered, .

Actually, this is a GOOD decision point since it affects how YOU as a player approach the genophage question.

If Maelon's research data is loss, this automatically means that Eve dies. Now, this choice alters the scenarios.

Wrex + Eve vs Wrex alone vs Wreav + Eve vs Wreav alone.

Wrex + Eve alive, it's safe to say that if you think the krogans deserve a chance, curing the genophage makes sense especially AFTER you talk to both Wrex and Eve and ask them what they want to do with the krogan people.

Talking with Wreav, there's no question that curing the genophage will result in another galactic war and thus it's a no brainer to take the dalatress offer if Eve is dead.

The only dicey issue is with Wrex alone or Wreav + Eve. Do you believe that Wrex by himself can keep the krogans in line and thus take a chance on Wrex and cure it? Does Eve have enough influence with the rest of the krogans to keep Wreav in line and are you willing to take that chance?

Without metagaming, there's no right answer and you have to go with you gut. The question itself NEVER changes "Do you cure the genophage?" but the answer DOES depending on what your choices were before.

How is that NOT roleplaying and offering choice?

Modifié par Bleachrude, 16 juin 2013 - 01:20 .

[Fixers0]

Bleachrude wrote...
Actually, this is a GOOD decision point since it affects how YOU as a player approach the genophage question.

How is that NOT roleplaying and offering choice?

Actually, I believe anyone proposing a Genopage cure deserves a one-way ticket to the mental hospital, suffice to say, I was extremly dissapointed as to how auto-dialogue and "cinematic experiance" made my Shepard looked like he was suffering from Amnesia.

But you're missing my point. Where the difference between Wrex and Wreav's presence actually is legitimate, The difference made by Mordin's data is mostly stylstic, and offers little substancial change to the context of the events as how they play out, Consider how the enitire mission in ME2 is optional to begin with, It would seem only natural that they'd have 90% in order to present 10% which actually has some diference.

[Nightdragon8]

Fixers0 wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...
Actually, this is a GOOD decision point since it affects how YOU as a player approach the genophage question.

How is that NOT roleplaying and offering choice?

Actually, I believe anyone proposing a Genopage cure deserves a one-way ticket to the mental hospital, suffice to say, I was extremly dissapointed as to how auto-dialogue and "cinematic experiance" made my Shepard looked like he was suffering from Amnesia.

But you're missing my point. Where the difference between Wrex and Wreav's presence actually is legitimate, The difference made by Mordin's data is mostly stylstic, and offers little substancial change to the context of the events as how they play out, Consider how the enitire mission in ME2 is optional to begin with, It would seem only natural that they'd have 90% in order to present 10% which actually has some diference.

honestly it seems like you just don't want "Story" changes but in game changes. so saving the data = saving Eve isn't good enough?

Also it seems if things don't massivly change in game then it should'nt be a choice at all?? sounds like more of an excuse to use more Auto-Dialogue then.

I don't think every choice should be world changing. Yes a choice to keep the data, which then turns aroud and ends up saving 1 person IS world changing, cuase in that other world, that person is dead... 

I guess it just depends on how much worth 1 life is.

[Bleachrude]

Fixers0 wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...
Actually, this is a GOOD decision point since it affects how YOU as a player approach the genophage question.

How is that NOT roleplaying and offering choice?

Actually, I believe anyone proposing a Genopage cure deserves a one-way ticket to the mental hospital, suffice to say, I was extremly dissapointed as to how auto-dialogue and "cinematic experiance" made my Shepard looked like he was suffering from Amnesia.

And Victus himself is not 100% behind curing the genophage...but he's counting on krogans being grateful that they would be good citizens of the galaxy...sure that's a hopeless proposition with Wreav alone but talking with Eve and going through the ancient krogan ruins, you can see potential.

Fixer0 wrote...
But you're missing my point. Where the difference between Wrex and Wreav's presence actually is legitimate, The difference made by Mordin's data is mostly stylstic, and offers little substancial change to the context of the events as how they play out, Consider how the enitire mission in ME2 is optional to begin with, It would seem only natural that they'd have 90% in order to present 10% which actually has some diference.

Ah, but you're metagaming here. At the instant when you didnt know about the ending slides, when you're facing Mordin (or Paedron Wiks), and all you know is that Eve is dead because of the data and Wrex is alone, do you shoot Mordin?

I'm willing to bet that more people had no problem shooting not-Mordin than Mordin even though the situation is exactly the same (wrex alone).

How about though when the data is saved (wrex and eve) and its Wiks? Again, I'm betting that more people shot Wiks in this siuation than in the situation with Mordin....

Indeed, the actual data itself determines whether or not Mordin lives. if you had shot Wrex (or didn't recruit him in ME1 - yeah I know, caught me off-guard too when I saw it on youtube...weirdly there ARE people that didn't recruit him and ME3 actually acknowledges the difference between shooting and not recruiting Wrex - another example of a plot flag that BW had to account for), the ONLY way to save Mordin is by NOT having the data.

Sure, you get only an email from him afterwards but the game STILL is showing your choices affecting the player personally.

Modifié par Bleachrude, 16 juin 2013 - 02:27 .

[Fixers0]

Bleachrude wrote...
And Victus himself is not 100% behind curing the genophage...but he's counting on krogans being grateful that they would be good citizens of the galaxy...sure that's a hopeless proposition with Wreav alone but talking with Eve and going through the ancient krogan ruins, you can see potential.

Actually, the only potentional I See is to how much security personal it would take to escort Victus and Wrex/Wreav to the airlock for immidiate removal from the Ship.

Points: poor narrative design, with too little regard for previous choices, I actually made a rather lengthy post a while a go as to how it broke my suspension of disbelief.

Bleachrude wrote...
Ah, but you're metagaming here. At the instant when you didnt know about the ending slides, when you're facing Mordin (or Paedron Wiks), and all you know is that Eve is dead because of the data and Wrex is alone, do you shoot Mordin?

I'm willing to bet that more people had no problem shooting not-Mordin than Mordin even though the situation is exactly the same (wrex alone).

How about though when the data is saved (wrex and eve) and its Wiks? Again, I'm betting that more people shot Wiks in this siuation than in the situation with Mordin....

Indeed, the actual data itself determines whether or not Mordin lives. if you had shot Wrex (or didn't recruit him in ME1 - yeah I know, caught me off-guard too when I saw it on youtube...weirdly there ARE people that didn't recruit him and ME3 actually acknowledges the difference between shooting and not recruiting Wrex - another example of a plot flag that BW had to account for), the ONLY way to save Mordin is by NOT having the data.

Sure, you get only an email from him afterwards but the game STILL is showing your choices affecting the player personally.

Now let me re-iterate the only want to specificly look at is the Decision of what to do with Mealon's data, all the other variables are irrelevant here, why, because the existance of a genophage cure by default totally defeats the purpose of that one choice. There's consequence but again it's almost only stylistic, there's no major difference in the chain of events, the characters present or context and development of thep lot line. Instead given each outcome it's own path all variatons happen on the same template.

[Bleachrude]

Why would you escort Vitus off the ship?

The only way you're getting turian fleet support (while their own planet is being attacked I might add...something which the game itself mentions no other race would do including humans) is by getting the krogan on-board.

The krogans get on-board for only 1 reason and that's to cure the genophage. Pure dickish move on their parts since if the turians lose, they lose as well, but given that they have noting to lose ANYWAY, then the scenario itself is valid.

So let's look at Maelon's data in of itself.

It determines whether or not Eve lives or dies. Now as another poster mentions, how is a choice that affects the life of one person NOT a choice, especially one that many fans build a rapport with?

Eve living or dying partly affects whether or not Mordin lives (you can only save Mordin without the data).

So, how exactly does Maelon's data NOT affect the story itself?

indeed, this one choice has about as much effect on the storyline as does accepting Morrigan's DR offer does in Dragon Age. Irrespective of what you choose there, you STILL kill the archdemon.

It just determines who takes the final blow as at this point in time, the archdemon has been defeated.

[Tron Mega]

LOYALTY: its life or death

[Arcian]

CptData wrote...

^ because not everyone wants to kill the VS during the coup?

If the decisions of the past had some kind of influence, the showdown between my Shepard and Ashley would have been entirely different: she'd trust Shepard, because he had taken the time to convince her he's still loyal towards the Alliance. However, that's not part in the game.

Keep in mind: most decisions alter tiny details - some you can miss easily.

Thing is, I like those tiny decisions, they make the game feeling rich and add more deepness. On the other hand, important decisions didn't matter that much in the end and even worse: RP decisions didn't matter at all. As I said: if decisions would have made a real difference, Ashley wouldn't question Shepard in the coup and Liara wouldn't try to be Shepard's girlfriend, for example.

Next ME: should be like Heavy Rain.

---

You're right about the squadmates, but also keep in mind most of them can die only once - in the Suicide Mission. And that's one of the biggest issues in the series, even BW admitted it: it looked great on the paper but was a hell-of-a-problem for ME3.

No game should be like Heavy Rain, that interactive QTE-infested movie was complete and utter garbage with a script far worse than ME3's. And ME3's script was pretty lousy.

[Fixers0]

Bleachrude wrote...

The only way you're getting turian fleet support (while their own planet is being attacked I might add...something which the game itself mentions no other race would do including humans) is by getting the krogan on-board.

The krogans get on-board for only 1 reason and that's to cure the genophage. Pure dickish move on their parts since if the turians lose, they lose as well, but given that they have noting to lose ANYWAY, then the scenario itself is valid.

Purely in war assets, Neither turian or Krogan war assets, aquired through the Tuchanaka plot line, are needed to get the best possible ending.

That said, being the pragmatic I am, I would have Wrex/Wreav be escorted away by security personel and then kindly insist to Victus that he picked the wrong person to make such proposal.

Bleachrude wrote...
So let's look at Maelon's data in of itself.

It determines whether or not Eve lives or dies. Now as another poster mentions, how is a choice that affects the life of one person NOT a choice, especially one that many fans build a rapport with?

Eve living or dying partly affects whether or not Mordin lives (you can only save Mordin without the data).

So, how exactly does Maelon's data NOT affect the story itself?

Again, Most of it is stylistic, It affects the story, the most superficial manner possible, Major events are the same and the more importantly the context of the entire plot line, until the very end, remains unaffected.

But what perphaps is most important is how the choice itself is irrelevant, you can completly ignore it and still play the exact same levels, shoot the exact same mooks, and watch the same cutscenes. If you do play the level, and like I destroyed Mealon's data, It's even worse and the your entire decisions is subverted so that the plot wouldn't be messed up.

[Mordanticus]

StreetMagic wrote...

If they pick a time period that predates this one (for example, during Krogan Rebellions or something), it still is kind of bittersweet. It'll always be lingering in the back of your head that civilization and life itself is pointless. It'll all be changed by a little kid in the sky one day. There isn't a sense of the unknown, a sense of hope and drive that gives life to the world. It's ultimately fatalistic.

Indeed.. or, they can actually fix what they broke and we see all sorts of amazing possibilities for new stories.. Suddenly, past or future episodes all have meaning again..

Hold the Line.. For Life..

[Bleachrude]

Fixers0 wrote...



Again, Most of it is stylistic, It affects the story, the most superficial manner possible, Major events are the same and the more importantly the context of the entire plot line, until the very end, remains unaffected.

But what perphaps is most important is how the choice itself is irrelevant, you can completly ignore it and still play the exact same levels, shoot the exact same mooks, and watch the same cutscenes. If you do play the level, and like I destroyed Mealon's data, It's even worse and the your entire decisions is subverted so that the plot wouldn't be messed up.

re: Krogan genophage
Victus saimply said "we need the krogans to relieve the pressue on the ground on palaven before I release my fleets"
Reasonable proposition given that, you know, his home was getting blasted when you blithely walked up to him and said "I need your fleets".
Wrex and Wreav are the two choices since any other krogan chosen is going to be either Wrex in everything but name OR Wreav in everything but name....


As for the argument that it is ONLY a stylistic choice, there is no choice in DA:O since you know, you actually have to go to Denerim and still have to kill the archdemon?

Indeed, even the Witcher 2 which gets lauded for choice has only 1 branching storyline and you end up in the same place come act 3 since you still end up facing Leto so was that choice irrelevant in Act 1?

Seriously, unless you go back to ME2 where there IS a failure state, no RPG actually has a FAIL state due to your choices. The end battle might be different, but you still defeat the enemy.

I'm honestly surprised that you consider the death of Eve (or the potential survival of Mordin) a small irrelevant choice.

[Fixers0]

Bleachrude wrote...
Victus saimply said "we need the krogans to relieve the pressue on the ground on palaven before I release my fleets"
Reasonable proposition given that, you know, his home was getting blasted when you blithely walked up to him and said "I need your fleets".

And if it wouldn't be for the increbily poorly designed dialouge system I would have said: "enjoy your trip to the mental hospital". Being dependent, on primitive, savage brutes makes me sick you now.

Bleachrude wrote...
As for the argument that it is ONLY a stylistic choice, there is no choice in DA:O since you know, you actually have to go to Denerim and still have to kill the archdemon?

Indeed, even the Witcher 2 which gets lauded for choice has only 1 branching storyline and you end up in the same place come act 3 since you still end up facing Leto so was that choice irrelevant in Act 1?

Seriously, unless you go back to ME2 where there IS a failure state, no RPG actually has a FAIL state due to your choices. The end battle might be different, but you still defeat the enemy.

I'm honestly surprised that you consider the death of Eve (or the potential survival of Mordin) a small irrelevant choice.

the Decision is irrelevant in light of the narrative development, which is only superficially alterd by that specific choice. It's downright insulting when destroying the Maelon's research in ME2 leads to a genophage cure in ME3 regardless of choice made. Yes a chararcter dies, the rest though is almost purely stylsistic, the decision fails to properly simulate the consquences and instead resorts to mostly stylistic changes in dialouge and text with making substancial changes to the narrative's context.

[Bleachrude]

*LOL*

You're going to escort the PRIMARCH of the turian hierarchy because he thinks that the only way to get breathing room on palaven is by getting the fiercest warriors on board? Heh..I would point out that Victus has no problem reminding a Renegade shepard who exactly Shepard is talking to.

(Which I thought was a great switch given that even in ME1, I thought it pretty damn weird that you can literally hangup the phone on your boss without any reprecussions. Let's see a CIA operative try that with the president of the US)

This is directly analogous to the rachni situation and the dalatress points this out but just like back then, better to deal with the situation NOW and then worry about the consequences later since you know, there won't be a LATER if the situation NOW isn't resolved which is Victus' viewpoint.

:re Maelon's data
That is a failure state since the game can't progress without the krogans initally helping palaven. The genophage is cured but it is YOUR choice as to whether or not it is actually used and for players, this is shaped in part by Maelon's data aka Eve.

Maelon's data does NOT make the genophage question irrelevant since a cure is NO GOOD if it is not actually used.

The Tuchanka arc is NOT about the cure. It's about whether or not the krogans DESERVE the cure. With Eve there, most believe that the krogans deserve that chance. Sure the game at the ending mentions that the krogans with Wreav go on the warpath but it DOES also mention that Eve herself is the biggest opponent trying to stop Wreav.

[AsheraII]

ThinkSharp wrote...

Showing the consequences of most choices right away, in the same game, like ME2 does or DA:O, would probably help. It wasn't necessarily the number of choices that caused issues, but that many were very large choices whose consequences were "saved" to be shown off in the future. That's why it becomes so disappointing when a player reaches the results of the rachni or the collector base decisions.

ME actually does all the little choices well. It's why we love the dialogue wheel and squad banter. It's also what makes replaying fun. It's not the large choices that do that.

I have to agree. The "big" galaxy-shaping decisions are what (nearly) destroyed the whole setting.

However, it's the small decisions that really matter, which really allow you to shape your character and have a strong emotional draw into your character.

The writers will have to put in a LOT of effort to fix all the damage done with both the ME2 and ME3 endings, not to mention the damage done with the whole Quarian-Geth conclusion. I had rather see them spend all that effort in making the rest of the story a solid and varied experience.

Those were decisions that should NOT be left to the players in a good setting like this. The ME setting is raised head and shoulders above throw-away settings. I dare say it's even better than a long-time going IP like Star Wars.

The players only need the PERSONAL decisions, since those are the only ones that actually matter. Those galaxy shaping decisions? Hey, the games' almost over, who cares whether I blow up earth? And if Earth is back next game, or even just a moonbase is left standing, I'll just troll the forums with complaints!

Remember Bioware: small decisions matter, big decisions don't, but they do ruin the setting as a whole.

[Fixers0]

Bleachrude wrote...
You're going to escort the PRIMARCH of the turian hierarchy because he thinks that the only way to get breathing room on palaven is by getting the fiercest warriors on board? Heh..I would point out that Victus has no problem reminding a Renegade shepard who exactly Shepard is talking to.

He's a turian, He has no official juristiction on an Alliance Vessel.

Bleachrude wrote...
This is directly analogous to the rachni situation and the dalatress points this out but just like back then, better to deal with the situation NOW and then worry about the consequences later since you know, there won't be a LATER if the situation NOW isn't resolved which is Victus' viewpoint.

And I while glady remind you that Neither the Krogan nor the Turian War assets earned through the Tuchanka arc are neccesary to achieve the best Ending. Meaning that skipping the entire plotline and fasting forward to the coup is of little relevance to the plot.

Bleachrude wrote...
That is a failure state since the game can't progress without the krogans initally helping palaven. The genophage is cured but it is YOUR choice as to whether or not it is actually used and for players, this is shaped in part by Maelon's data aka Eve.

That's the whole point: poor choices implemenatation and narrative design. forcing the game down into a specific road in the most contrived ways possible.

Bleachrude wrote...
Maelon's data does NOT make the genophage question irrelevant since a cure is NO GOOD if it is not actually used.

Maelon's data is Irrelevant in the light of plot development, which will be 90% the same regardless of choice made (or whether the mission is done at all).

Bleachrude wrote...
The Tuchanka arc is NOT about the cure. It's about whether or not the krogans DESERVE the cure. With Eve there, most believe that the krogans deserve that chance. Sure the game at the ending mentions that the krogans with Wreav go on the warpath but it DOES also mention that Eve herself is the biggest opponent trying to stop Wreav.

I have allready decided, that I won't ever do it. the game forcing me down that path my subverting previous choices is poor writing and narrative design.

[AsheraII]

Fixers0 wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...
Victus saimply said "we need the krogans to relieve the pressue on the ground on palaven before I release my fleets"
Reasonable proposition given that, you know, his home was getting blasted when you blithely walked up to him and said "I need your fleets".

And if it wouldn't be for the increbily poorly designed dialouge system I would have said: "enjoy your trip to the mental hospital". Being dependent, on primitive, savage brutes makes me sick you now.

Bleachrude wrote...
As for the argument that it is ONLY a stylistic choice, there is no choice in DA:O since you know, you actually have to go to Denerim and still have to kill the archdemon?

Indeed, even the Witcher 2 which gets lauded for choice has only 1 branching storyline and you end up in the same place come act 3 since you still end up facing Leto so was that choice irrelevant in Act 1?

Seriously, unless you go back to ME2 where there IS a failure state, no RPG actually has a FAIL state due to your choices. The end battle might be different, but you still defeat the enemy.

I'm honestly surprised that you consider the death of Eve (or the potential survival of Mordin) a small irrelevant choice.

the Decision is irrelevant in light of the narrative development, which is only superficially alterd by that specific choice. It's downright insulting when destroying the Maelon's research in ME2 leads to a genophage cure in ME3 regardless of choice made. Yes a chararcter dies, the rest though is almost purely stylsistic, the decision fails to properly simulate the consquences and instead resorts to mostly stylistic changes in dialouge and text with making substancial changes to the narrative's context.

The end result of decisions doesn't have to be radically different. the point of a ROLEPLAYING GAME is the shaping of your character. Roleplaying games are not about the destination. They are about the journey.

[Fixers0]

AsheraII wrote...
The end result of decisions doesn't have to be radically different. the point of a ROLEPLAYING GAME is the shaping of your character. Roleplaying games are not about the destination. They are about the journey.

Indeed, which is why the choice of Maelon's data was poorly implemented, that is being entirely subverted in the sequel. Generally the best possible consquence a choice can have is to realisticly simulate the reaction of the world to that choice.

Secondly Mass Effect 3's dialouge and choice system makes effective roleplaying next to immposible, the player being railroaded ontp the certain paths in the most contrived means possible, which mostly is autodialogue.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Bioware could also just make a two parter, since with no middle part they could more easily go crazy with choices and consequences.

[Bleachrude]

re: Victus

You're the one that needs Victus...what exactly were you hoping to do? Simply grab the turian fleets and move on (again, you're metagaming since at the time, you don't know how many war assets you actually need - beside, I thought pre-EC, you couldn't get the best ending without MP?).

What you're arguing for actually relates to the OP. Too many plot flags as you can ignore/skip certain things but that has to do with a game that allows for side missions to affect the main story which I actually consider a positive.

re: Plot development
Ok, I think we have a different interpretation of importance.

I think the death of Eve VASTLY changes how a player would look at the "Do the krogans deserve a chance" and the game itself makes note of this in that only in 1 scenario can you talk down Mordin and that requires Eve to be dead.

I think also your bias is slightly showing since I get the impression even BEFORE ME3 you thought a possible cure to the genophage was a bad idea and Eve does nothing to change your mind.

[Fixers0]

Bleachrude wrote...
You're the one that needs Victus...what exactly were you hoping to do? Simply grab the turian fleets and move on (again, you're metagaming since at the time, you don't know how many war assets you actually need - beside, I thought pre-EC, you couldn't get the best ending without MP?).

Actually, the story itself relies largely on metagaming, seeing that we're recruiting conventional fleets in a war that supposedly cannot be won conventionaly for no purpus other then keep the plot going.

Bleachrude wrote...
I think the death of Eve VASTLY changes how a player would look at the "Do the krogans deserve a chance" and the game itself makes note of this in that only in 1 scenario can you talk down Mordin and that requires Eve to be dead.

I think also your bias is slightly showing since I get the impression even BEFORE ME3 you thought a possible cure to the genophage was a bad idea and Eve does nothing to change your mind.

Actually it's the other way around, Shepard by default, through autodialogue and forced interactions, is pro-genophage cure, so that he plot wouldn't be messed up, which very contrived and bad storytelling in my eyes, please look at the link i've posted earlier for more clarification.
But I've think at this point we're wondering too much into the area of subjective storytelling and invidual perception, considering it's such a complex issue, that's not so strange, so let me return it all to the basics.

the outcome and consquence of Mordin's loyalty missions is very poorly implentend as it's entirely subverted in the sequel, that is the genophage cure being there by default, regardless of decisions made by the player, completly defeating the purpose and rendering the choice largly meaningless.
Instad the narrative pulls a retcon, by the virtue of adding Eve,  which handwaves the importance the player's decisions away by sidelining into Eve's surrivial. By doing  this objective story of the Tuchanka plotline (the chain of events) resumes for 90% with for the most part only superficial and stylstic changes in dialogue, with the ending being the only  noteworthy part that is fundamentally alterd based on the players choice.

Modifié par Fixers0, 16 juin 2013 - 07:26 .

[Bleachrude]

Fixers0 wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...
You're the one that needs Victus...what exactly were you hoping to do? Simply grab the turian fleets and move on (again, you're metagaming since at the time, you don't know how many war assets you actually need - beside, I thought pre-EC, you couldn't get the best ending without MP?).

Actually, the story itself relies largely on metagaming, seeing that we're recruiting conventional fleets in a war that supposedly cannot be won conventionaly for no purpus other then keep the plot going.

Actually, the turian fleet is the one that is actually GUARDING the crucible sight while it is being built so I'm not sure how they aren't relevant.

Fixers0 wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...
I think the death of Eve VASTLY changes how a player would look at the "Do the krogans deserve a chance" and the game itself makes note of this in that only in 1 scenario can you talk down Mordin and that requires Eve to be dead.

I think also your bias is slightly showing since I get the impression even BEFORE ME3 you thought a possible cure to the genophage was a bad idea and Eve does nothing to change your mind.

Actually it's the other way around, Shepard by default, through autodialogue and forced interactions, is pro-genophage cure, so that he plot wouldn't be messed up, which very contrived and bad storytelling in my eyes, please look at the link i've posted earlier for more clarification.

Blatantly false with a Wreav is in charge playthrough...the game explicitly in this scenario tells you straight up Wreav is a douchebag. Your squadmates will say "Wreav is a douchebag" and both Eve and Mordin will tell you

"Wreav is a douchebag".

The game pretty much hammers you on the head that the genophage cure is a bad thing with Wreav in charge. Sure, the game switches gears with Wrex but again, that is a strength of the arc.

How much more important to the plot can you make the data given that it explicitly is what determines the life/death of a character that many players get to like?

(Especially for new players even if they didn't cure the genophage but actually liked Bakara/Eve)

Your argument doesn't really make sense because you're basically saying "I don't want to interact with either krogan and by default the turians". By that reasoning, you're railroaded in ANY rpg since the game forces you to deal with them.

Even Skyrim and other TES games have a plotline which you have to interact with to actually "finish" the game.

Modifié par Bleachrude, 16 juin 2013 - 08:27 .

[Nightwriter]

I want the next game to be a single story for this reason and more, actually.

A single game can handle choice consequence better. It doesn't need to walk the tightrope between accommodating new players and pleasing old ones, struggling to make each game self-contained yet part of a continuous narrative. A coherent story becomes easier to pull off. I'm usually more able to roleplay a consistent character over the course of the game (the ME trilogy made this hard).

Not to mention that the gaming industry changes between game releases. Graphics technology advances, combat mechanics improve, the market shifts. A trilogy piece has to bend and sway with these changes, keeping up with the times even as it struggles to stay true to what it set out to do. It almost has to keep rethinking itself, which probably makes style and theme inconsistency an easy trap to fall into.

Oh, and if the single game blows up in my face I won't care as much. There's that.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 17 juin 2013 - 04:40 .

[chemiclord]

Will less carry-over make for a better game? Yes and no.

I do believe many of the problems were a result of having to juggle too many balls at once, and many of them dropped. ME2 characters getting shoved off stage, some of them basically getting written out entirely (Morinth, for example), and the shift to auto-dialogue (which was vital to squeeze as much as they could out of their word budget), were examples of running into the wall as to how many different permutations they could do.

However, there WERE problems with the narrative of ME3 that had very little to do with the choices involved. The little continuity errors (signs that they were lacking someone who's purpose was to make sure plot elements fit previously established lore), that they really didn't have a particularly solid idea just what the primary antagonists were or what they were doing with the primary plot direction... not to mention that disaster of an ending narrative... I don't think those were a problem of having too many choices to handle. It was just... poorly done.

Modifié par chemiclord, 17 juin 2013 - 04:51 .