188 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

In Exile wrote...

That's just her sucking at being manipulative, but honestly, every person I've bet IRL that talks up being manipulative is comically bad at it. 

I actually thought that hiding the fact that the Warden (or his friend) must die to aid her offer was clever.  It gives him less time to come to terms with it.

Unfortunately, it doesn't really help that if the Warden *did* agree with her, for pragmatic reasons or otherwise, he probably wouldn't have an issue sacrificing his other Warden.

Unless the Warden wanted to draw a ton of wanted (glory) attention to herself by killing an Archdemon and surviving.  I'm surprised those Wardens weren't forcefully hauled off before the First Warden for answers.

I guess I just would have preferred it if she hadn't brought up the "Die or be overshadowed" argument to my City Elf or Dwarf Commoner.  That might work on a noble (Human or Dwarvern), but for someone fighting for their home and loved ones (CE) or someone that is happy to be alive and recognized by others (DC), that's like, the worst possible argument to make. 

[Twisted Path]

I always thought they should have made the Old God Baby the one thing in Origins that you had no control over. No matter what you did Morrigan was going to steal that Old God's soul because that's her mission. It's a great and obvious sequel-hook but it kind of gets ruined by the whole save import continuity thing.

[Ieldra]

Twisted Path wrote...
I always thought they should have made the Old God Baby the one thing in Origins that you had no control over. No matter what you did Morrigan was going to steal that Old God's soul because that's her mission. It's a great and obvious sequel-hook but it kind of gets ruined by the whole save import continuity thing.

I agree. It's just too interesting to not let it happen.

There are a few plausible ways how Morrigan could have found a way even so, but that would go down as well as ME3's "If we killed the Rachni queen, there will be another one".  

[LPPrince]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Twisted Path wrote...
I always thought they should have made the Old God Baby the one thing in Origins that you had no control over. No matter what you did Morrigan was going to steal that Old God's soul because that's her mission. It's a great and obvious sequel-hook but it kind of gets ruined by the whole save import continuity thing.

I agree. It's just too interesting to not let it happen.

There are a few plausible ways how Morrigan could have found a way even so, but that would go down as well as ME3's "If we killed the Rachni queen, there will be another one".  

Eww, don't remind me.

[BlueMagitek]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I agree. It's just too interesting to not let it happen.

There are a few plausible ways how Morrigan could have found a way even so, but that would go down as well as ME3's "If we killed the Rachni queen, there will be another one".  

How?  Morrigan tapped Dog?  Dog can be dead, I'm not sure how many players do that, but unless you're going to turn Morrigan into a rapist, there are certainly scenarios where I don't see how she could conceive with a Grey Warden.

[Ieldra]

BlueMagitek wrote...
Well, I mean, Morrigan did advocate for basically every "evil" act in DA:O, insisted that you kill her mother based on her word alone (who had saved your life and the life of your companion), withholds what is rather vital knowledge from the PC to help manipulate him to take her offer up, and then made rather terrible arguments as to why you should accept her offer.

As I see it, Morrigan couldn't know that the Warden didn't know about the Archdemon kill until the conversation with Riordan, and she gave reasons some of my Wardens found convincing. And while she has a survivalist, "everyone is on their own" mentality, I can't see her doing anything on the level of a typical Tevinter magister. 

[Ieldra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I agree. It's just too interesting to not let it happen.

There are a few plausible ways how Morrigan could have found a way even so, but that would go down as well as ME3's "If we killed the Rachni queen, there will be another one".  

How?  Morrigan tapped Dog?  Dog can be dead, I'm not sure how many players do that, but unless you're going to turn Morrigan into a rapist, there are certainly scenarios where I don't see how she could conceive with a Grey Warden.

What about this: if you reject her, she seduces Riordan.

Edit:
OK, that wouldn't work, since then the Warden who killed the Archdemon would survive. Didn't think of that.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 juin 2013 - 08:57 .

[BlueMagitek]

Ieldra2 wrote...

As I see it, Morrigan couldn't know that the Warden didn't know about the Archdemon kill until the conversation with Riordan, and she gave reasons some of my Wardens found convincing. And while she has a survivalist, "everyone is on their own" mentality, I can't see her doing anything on the level of a typical Tevinter magister. 

Well, as that particular fact is a secret, Morrigan knows that :

Alistar is the newest Grey Warden recruit of Ferelden's band.
The Warden is then made the newest Grey Warden recruit.
Duncan and the rest of the old band died at Ostagar.

She claims to have watched you through the Kokari Wilds, so I imagine she knows any information that was divulged there.  I believe she's smart enough to come to the reasonable conclusion that the two surviving Wardens don't know everything about their Order; especially something that would probably only be relevant during an actual blight.

She's totally happy with giving a demon a little girl to play with for the lulz.

Edit:

She rejects Riordan for being an old man who was made a Warden at the same time as or close to the time of Duncan.  Unless she was lying about that, but yes, the Warden would have survived.  It would have been a good hook for Witch Hunt, at least.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 23 juin 2013 - 09:00 .

[dsl08002]

i have said it Before and i say it again. I dont Think that morrigan alone wont work without the warden. i just dont Think that it will work.

its all about Chemistry and familiarity, they can add her to the game to Another PC but ... no it doesnt work because of that reason.

[Ieldra]

BlueMagitek wrote...
The's totally happy with giving a demon a little girl to play with for the lulz.

And yet she doesn't make a deal with the demon if you send her into the Fade to save Connor.... Also, there are two ways to save everyone in Honnleath and Morrigan disapproves only of one, so it's not quite clear of what exactly she disapproves if you lie to Kitty. Perhaps she just thinks you give in too fast, which would be in-character.

[In Exile]

dsl08002 wrote...

i have said it Before and i say it again. I dont Think that morrigan alone wont work without the warden. i just dont Think that it will work.

its all about Chemistry and familiarity, they can add her to the game to Another PC but ... no it doesnt work because of that reason.

The player is the same, and the Warden was an exposition brick for Morigan aside from the romance. So I don't see why the Warden is relevant at all. 

[Zeta42]

Let's see. If there's a war between mages and templars, can you choose sides? If yes, then I can see Morrigan as an ally and a quest giver, if you side with mages, and an enemy, if you side with templars.

[In Exile]

BlueMagitek wrote...
I actually thought that hiding the fact that the Warden (or his friend) must die to aid her offer was clever.  It gives him less time to come to terms with it.

I don't actually think the archdemon thing was that shocking, in-game. I mean, for us as the player it was, becuase we know that our odds of success are 100%. But the idea that you could (a) survive to reach the archdemon and ( actually succeed in killing it, in-game, had to be seen as an almost absurd outcome. 

Unless the Warden wanted to draw a ton of wanted (glory) attention to herself by killing an Archdemon and surviving.  I'm surprised those Wardens weren't forcefully hauled off before the First Warden for answers.

I believe a "go **** yourself" is all it takes. As if anyone alive could actually touch the Warden by that point. It's why following up on the character is absurd. You break the power chart by that point.

I guess I just would have preferred it if she hadn't brought up the "Die or be overshadowed" argument to my City Elf or Dwarf Commoner.  That might work on a noble (Human or Dwarvern), but for someone fighting for their home and loved ones (CE) or someone that is happy to be alive and recognized by others (DC), that's like, the worst possible argument to make. 

I mean, you could just say you did kill the archdemon. Not as if anyone's going to know if there are only 2 Wardens there and 1 comes back alive. By that point you're already known as the Head Badass, so it's not even something people would doubt. 

[BlueMagitek]

In Exile wrote...

I don't actually think the archdemon thing was that shocking, in-game. I mean, for us as the player it was, becuase we know that our odds of success are 100%. But the idea that you could (a) survive to reach the archdemon and ( actually succeed in killing it, in-game, had to be seen as an almost absurd outcome.

I believe a "go **** yourself" is all it takes. As if anyone alive could actually touch the Warden by that point. It's why following up on the character is absurd. You break the power chart by that point.

I mean, you could just say you did kill the archdemon. Not as if anyone's going to know if there are only 2 Wardens there and 1 comes back alive. By that point you're already known as the Head Badass, so it's not even something people would doubt. 

There is a difference between "Yeah, this is probably a suicide mission, but we're going to do our best" and "You *must* die to accomplish your goal".  But yes, I agree with you.

I'm fairly certain that the Warden isn't meant to be a god, but sure, we'll go with that.  What's to stop the First Warden from ordering blood magic used to coerce the Warden into giving the truth?  Or Alistar or Loghain, if they were used?

That is entirely true.  Other Wardens would know, but meh, they weren't of help to Ferelden anyway, so it wouldn't matter to most people.  Which is another problem with Morrigan's argument.

[TheLastArchivist]

kylecouch wrote...

Just curious... but you DO know that the Architect's plan also includes forcing every citizen of Thedas to basically undergo The Joining in order to make them immune to the Taint? Knowing that the Joining has like a 90% fatality rating...and makes the survivors nearly infertile...just think about how much "promise" that shows.

That was The Architect's previous plan, the one he presents to Bregan in The Calling.

In DA Awakening, The Architect abandoned it and now tries a second plan: to gather Grey Warden blood and with it, perform his own version of the Joining in an attempt to make more darkspawn retain their sanity and develop awareness.

This is in the DLC. If you play it until the end, he tells you of this new plan during the dialog just before the final fight with The Mother.

Modifié par LegendofKirkwall, 23 juin 2013 - 10:58 .

[Mike3207]

Wulfram wrote...

Considering she approves of murdering elves for blood magic, I'd say she's potential villain material.

Though I doubt Bioware would do it.  Edit:  Though I do hope they preserve some sort of ambiguity about her.

@LPPrince Wasn't the existance of the non-OGB baby confirmed in Witch Hunt? They'd be willing to retcon the slide if convenient I reckon, but actual in game dialogue is more difficult to ignore.

Not everyone did the Witch Hunt-I simply don't like Morrigan that much. Everyone's not going to do the DLC. For that reason, DLC can not be considered general canon, just your individual canon.

[Angrywolves]

Morrigan isn't the villain in DAI.
I suppose it's possible she could have preserved sperm from an earlier tryst with the warden or drugged and seduced Allistair at some point unknown to the warden. Agree that OGB should be canon. Makes DA a lot more interesting if OGB is canon.

[TheRevanchist]

LegendofKirkwall wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Just curious... but you DO know that the Architect's plan also includes forcing every citizen of Thedas to basically undergo The Joining in order to make them immune to the Taint? Knowing that the Joining has like a 90% fatality rating...and makes the survivors nearly infertile...just think about how much "promise" that shows.

That was The Architect's previous plan, the one he presents to Bregan in The Calling.

In DA Awakening, The Architect abandoned it and now tries a second plan: to gather Grey Warden blood and with it, perform his own version of the Joining in an attempt to make more darkspawn retain their sanity and develop awareness.

This is in the DLC. If you play it until the end, he tells you of this new plan during the dialog just before the final fight with The Mother.

That was always part of the plan...he is simply omitting the second part of his plan...because he knows theres basically no chance of anyone agreeing to help him if he mentions that.

[TheRevanchist]

Btw I'm really loving the "f*** all those Ultimate Sacrifice people, OGB is kewl make it canon!" thing going on <.<

I don't want the damn OGB in my game, that's exactly WHY I chose the Ultimate Sacrifice. but why am I wasting my breath? this is BSN, aka "My opinion is fact, screw anyone who disagrees." 

of course I already know the response I'll get. "More ppl picked the DR than US so its the smart thing to do" and blah blah... Idc who picked what more...the choice was given for a reason...if they pull a Collector Base with the OGB choice then I'm just done with this franchise, likewise if they just write off a choice they provided because "oooo OGB is kewl!" 

Modifié par kylecouch, 24 juin 2013 - 01:58 .

[Angrywolves]

The choice is ultimately up to Gaider.

[addiction21]

They cant because anything they do will ****** some group of fans off. Other then the usual group that are pissed off all the time about anything BIoWare does.

Modifié par addiction21, 24 juin 2013 - 03:35 .

[Eveangaline]

JasonPogo wrote...

 I was just wondering this today.  No matter whT Bioware dose with her a bunch of people will get upset.

So first we have people that did the DR in their game.  Will the God Child be part of the story? Will anything change If the Warden, Alistair, or Logain are the father?  

If you did not do the DR there can be no God Child.  Or will they shoehorn in the fact that Morrigan found a Warden to sleep with?

then we have Witch Hunt.  Did your Warden go with Morrigan?  Will they explain where and what you did with her?  Will it even be mentioned?  

Did you kill Morrigan?  If so how is she in DA3?  Do we get another hand wave like we did with Leliana?


P.S.  I wrote this with my phone at work so sorry for spelling and grammer...

If they put in that, that automatically makes all ultimate sacrifices null. If the ritual happened, no warden died killing the archdemon

[ComfortablyNumb]

Angrywolves wrote...

I suppose it's possible she could have [...] drugged and seduced Allistair at some point unknown to the warden.

So, you're saying she could hve been a rapist in DA:O?.... Brilliant... I'm pretty sure even big fans of Morrigan would have a problem with that.  <_<

[Ieldra]

kylecouch wrote...
Btw I'm really loving the "f*** all those Ultimate Sacrifice people, OGB is kewl make it canon!" thing going on <.<

I don't want the damn OGB in my game, that's exactly WHY I chose the Ultimate Sacrifice. but why am I wasting my breath? this is BSN, aka "My opinion is fact, screw anyone who disagrees." 

of course I already know the response I'll get. "More ppl picked the DR than US so its the smart thing to do" and blah blah... Idc who picked what more...the choice was given for a reason...if they pull a Collector Base with the OGB choice then I'm just done with this franchise, likewise if they just write off a choice they provided because "oooo OGB is kewl!" 

The problem here is that from a storytelling viewpoint, the OGB is to cool to just ignore, while from the RP viewpoint, forcing it into the story is like hitting people like you over the head, but if it's non canon, then the consequences will likely be minimal, which is unsatisfying from a storytelling point of view.

There isn't really a good way to resolve that with little effort in resources. I wish they'll spend the resources to make the differences significant, unlike ME2's CB decision, but I'm afraid - since DG already said the OGB isn't canon and that DAI will focus on its own plot - that the OGB decision will be largely insignificant. And that would be a shame.

[Ieldra]

Also, no, as opposed to what I said earlier, they can't just retcon the ritual decision. If some ritual is done successfully, regardless with whom, and Morrigan is around Denerim when the battle happens, then the Warden won't die killing the archdemon, so if someone dies killing the archdemon, that means there is no OGB.

Even if I didn't believe David Gaider when he said it won't be canon, I wouldn't believe they'd change something this big retroactively.