4643 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Raijin]

cjones91 wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
Yeah a war that the white Chantry started up a long time ago by segregating mages from society by using fear to get acceptions from the public. Do you think mages are going to tolerate this kind of abuse? I don't think so.

But when does self defense end and revenge start? Are you really any better than the Templars or the Chantry if you stoop to their level and are you setting a good example for futre generations by your actions?

To me a violent war for mage liberation is going to lead a reverse situation of mages and non mgaes where the non-mages are segregated and abused by the mages. Maybe not as bad a slaves and blood magic craziness but as bad as what the Chantry is/was doing.

Yet there is no evidence that the mage revolution will lead to the subjugation of non mages.

Tevinter Imperium does not represent all mages. Not all mages wants to live the life by Tevinter Imperium standards. Just because you give Mages freedom doesn't mean that their going to snatch up a bunch of non-mages and enslave them. They're not going to turn to blood magic, and then use their slaves as fuel for their blood magic.

Look at the apostate Malcolm Hawke for an example of what a lot of mages want. Freedom and the chance to raise a family of their own.

The Hierophant wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

The Maker hates them anyway... for not giving them his gift.

I think it might be the opposite when you factor in the whole being stalked and prone to possession by demons angle.

It
only makes the mage more powerful for each time they resist the
tempations from demons. It's the Makers way of testing his gifted
people.

[Lord Raijin]

AresKeith wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Magic isn't real.

So that explains why each time I cut myself in front of the real life police, as I'm about to go into combat, that nothing happens. Thanks for the reality check

It's time for you to step away from the keyboard

[cjones91]

addiction21 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

I am still waiting on some actual facts of Andrastes views and ideas on magic. Not hearsay or biased interpretations.

What part of she wanted magic to serve man don't you understand?You can call it biased but Andraste did'nt start locking all of the Tevinter mages up since it started centuries after her death.

Show me context. How about we start there. Show me actual meaning to what was meant by those words instead of YOU interpreting them as you see fit.

Of course when you don't like what comes from the Chantry you are more then happy to tear it apart or create conspiracy theories.

dragonflight288 wrote...

Would you be happy with strong evidence that suggests Andraste was a mage herself? It isn't proof, but it is strongly implied.

Its not evidence at all. That is my problem. Hearsay at best and shouldn't be used in a argument.

Especially when its only going to be twisted to support one owns interests.

It is like the time limit on the Harrowing. We have no idea what that entails. What rules or what restrictions are in place but some like to drag it out as if the Templars present or standing around itching to murder them some mages.

We don't know and that is the point. That is why I am giving Mr. Neutrality such a hard time be "Andraste likely meant" whatever supports him.

Whatever dude....believe what you want but know that the Circle system did'nt exist in Andraste's time,that shows she was'nt for subjugating mages.

Modifié par cjones91, 02 novembre 2013 - 02:24 .

[cjones91]

[quote]HiroVoid wrote...

[quote]cjones91 wrote...
It's located in the Shaperate inside a locked chest,the book is a gift item but the description states that there were rumors Andraste was a powerful mage.[/quote]
[/quote]
Like the rumors people make on here and that those two guys in every area of Origins makes?
[/quote]The difference is there's a small bit of evidence that gives credibilty that Andraste could be a mage.

[Lord Raijin]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Yeah a war that the white Chantry started up a long time ago by segregating mages from society by using fear to get acceptions from the public. Do you think mages are going to tolerate this kind of abuse? I don't think so.

You mean the segragation the mages accepted?
The segregation that keeps everyone safe?

Mages better behave, or else they'll get a spanking.

1. You mean forced to accept.
2. How is it making everyone safe? By the way non-mages are killing each other all the time over political situation. Loghain essentinally aided the darkspawn by betraying his own king, which contributed to his death including the death of the Grey Warden commander. He later caused a civil war in the process during a fricken Blight. He hired an escaped Circle mage to poison the Arl, and was sucessful.

Base on the history should non-mages be segregated? Apparently they don't know how to behave themselves, or play nice to each other.

[addiction21]

cjones91 wrote...

Whatever dude....believe what you want but know that the Circle system did'nt exist in Andraste's time,that shows she was'nt for subjugating mages.

False equivalence try again.

[In Exile]

cjones91 wrote...

Whatever dude....believe what you want but know that the Circle system did'nt exist in Andraste's time,that shows she was'nt for subjugating mages.

Not to be pedantic (wait, that's totally a lie - I'm only posting to be pendantic!), but based on the definition of subjugation, that's exactly what she wanted. :innocent:

sub·ju·gate  (sbj-gt)tr.v. sub·ju·gat·ed, sub·ju·gat·ing, sub·ju·gates1. To bring under control; conquer. 

[Lord Raijin]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Yeah a war that the white Chantry started up a long time ago by segregating mages from society by using fear to get acceptions from the public. Do you think mages are going to tolerate this kind of abuse? I don't think so.

You mean the segragation the mages accepted?
The segregation that keeps everyone safe?

Mages better behave, or else they'll get a spanking.

Lotion thedas is in ruins the chantry is in shambles and the templars have become red lyrium demon lovers all because the mages have said : ****** of. So the segregation is not keeping people safe. Its the mages that stayed their hand untill the templars pissed them of.
 

Nah it was all the mages fault. How dare them fight back against their authorities. Those damn nonconformist bastards. They should all be made tranquil and be the Chantries laborist.

After all having the status of a "non-mage" gives you ulitmate power of being "innocent" therefour when something goes on that is clearly your fault as a non-mage, you can point your finger to the nearby mage and blame it all on him/her... and people will listen because after all you're innocent simply by being a non-mage.

[cjones91]

addiction21 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Whatever dude....believe what you want but know that the Circle system did'nt exist in Andraste's time,that shows she was'nt for subjugating mages.

False equivalence try again.

Let's try a little thought excercise shall we?If Andraste wanted mages to be subjugated then why was'nt the Circle System implemented during her lifetime?Her followers could have easily done such a thing and her death would even be used as a rallying cry for the imprisonment of all mages,so the fact such a system was'nt implemented shows  one of two things:either Andraste believed mages should use their talents for good,or she did'nt really care one way or the other.

But of course you will ignore all of that and claim I'm making sonspiracies which seems to be your deal whenever you respond to my posts.

[cjones91]

In Exile wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Whatever dude....believe what you want but know that the Circle system did'nt exist in Andraste's time,that shows she was'nt for subjugating mages.

Not to be pedantic (wait, that's totally a lie - I'm only posting to be pendantic!), but based on the definition of subjugation, that's exactly what she wanted. :innocent:

sub·ju·gate  (sbj-gt)tr.v. sub·ju·gat·ed, sub·ju·gat·ing, sub·ju·gates1. To bring under control; conquer. 

Yet evidence shows she did'nt do that since Tevinter was allowed to retain power.

[Lord Raijin]

cjones91 wrote...
Andraste believed magic should serve man and never rule under him.Now some could interpret that as subjugating all mages which is what the Chantry thought ,but it's likely that Andraste wanted mages to help people with their magic instead of locking them all up for being mages.

And that my friend is the reason why the Maker turned his back againast his people. They can't even follow one simple instructions.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 02 novembre 2013 - 02:43 .

[addiction21]

cjones91 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Whatever dude....believe what you want but know that the Circle system did'nt exist in Andraste's time,that shows she was'nt for subjugating mages.

Not to be pedantic (wait, that's totally a lie - I'm only posting to be pendantic!), but based on the definition of subjugation, that's exactly what she wanted. :innocent:

sub·ju·gate  (sbj-gt)tr.v. sub·ju·gat·ed, sub·ju·gat·ing, sub·ju·gates1. To bring under control; conquer. 

Yet evidence shows she did'nt do that since Tevinter was allowed to retain power.

Because she was betrayed, murdered and burned in the middle of the war she was winning against Tevinter. Please know something about the source material.

But facts and things like that don't really mean anything do they. Especially when you have yet to provide me with her Manifesto.

But since you have no evidence to show she likely supported whatever beliefs you want her to right? That's my entire point. You cant prove anything just hearsay but somehow everything always supports your cause.

That might be confirmation bias not to sure tho.

[dragonflight288]

HiroVoid wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

I am still waiting on some actual facts of Andrastes views and ideas on magic. Not hearsay or biased interpretations.

Would you be happy with strong evidence that suggests Andraste was a mage herself? It isn't proof, but it is strongly implied.

Such as?  Also, Andraste being a mage doesn't discount anything in the same way a mage Hawke can annul a circle, a mage warden can be pro-circle, and the way a female courier can be pro-legion in FO:NV.

Here's a link of a strong list of evidence that Etheral posted awhile back.

Also, the link he provides goes to this picture.

https://encrypted-tb...I19nLf0huw7AvyA

Now this statue of Andraste was built by those who knew her personally, and it's placed directly above her ashes. If your cunning is high enough, the Guardian will admit to knowing Andraste personally.

Aside from the list of evidence Etheral provides in my link, I think it's quite telling where the followers of Andraste decided to place the flame.

[cjones91]

addiction21 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Whatever dude....believe what you want but know that the Circle system did'nt exist in Andraste's time,that shows she was'nt for subjugating mages.

Not to be pedantic (wait, that's totally a lie - I'm only posting to be pendantic!), but based on the definition of subjugation, that's exactly what she wanted. :innocent:

sub·ju·gate  (sbj-gt)tr.v. sub·ju·gat·ed, sub·ju·gat·ing, sub·ju·gates1. To bring under control; conquer. 

Yet evidence shows she did'nt do that since Tevinter was allowed to retain power.

Because she was betrayed, murdered and burned in the middle of the war she was winning against Tevinter. Please know something about the source material.

But facts and things like that don't really mean anything do they. Especially when you have yet to provide me with her Manifesto.

But since you have no evidence to show she likely supported whatever beliefs you want her to right? That's my entire point. You cant prove anything just hearsay but somehow everything always supports your cause.

That might be confirmation bias not to sure tho.

Look...you asked a question about Andraste's beliefs,I answered that she said Magic should serve man and never rule over him.I then said one of the ways that could be interpreted as mages should use their talents to help people yet that seems to be the part you have a problem with given your hostile response to my post.

Modifié par cjones91, 02 novembre 2013 - 02:54 .

[The Hierophant]

cjones91 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Whatever dude....believe what you want but know that the Circle system did'nt exist in Andraste's time,that shows she was'nt for subjugating mages.

Not to be pedantic (wait, that's totally a lie - I'm only posting to be pendantic!), but based on the definition of subjugation, that's exactly what she wanted. :innocent:

sub·ju·gate  (sbj-gt)tr.v. sub·ju·gat·ed, sub·ju·gat·ing, sub·ju·gates1. To bring under control; conquer. 

Yet evidence shows she did'nt do that since Tevinter was allowed to retain power.

No. She was captured and burned at the stake thanks to Mafareth's betrayal. There's no telling what she'd have done to Tevinter's magisters if she conquered them.

[SgtSteel91]

Lord Raijin wrote...
Tevinter Imperium does not represent all mages. Not all mages wants to live the life by Tevinter Imperium standards. Just because you give Mages freedom doesn't mean that their going to snatch up a bunch of non-mages and enslave them. They're not going to turn to blood magic, and then use their slaves as fuel for their blood magic.

Look at the apostate Malcolm Hawke for an example of what a lot of mages want. Freedom and the chance to raise a family of their own.

But can really deny that there are some mages who want vengence on the Chantry and the Templars? And that hatred won't fester over time until it is the mages who are subjugating non-mages "for their own good" and at worst abusing them as payback for what was done to them? Just like what non-mages did over time after the fall of the Imperium?

[Hazegurl]

I doubt Andraste had time to do much of anything but fight and die. For all we know she could have meant outright servitude or simply helping others. No one knows. For all we know she meant to destory the magisters until none of them were left. Or she just wanted the bad ones gone. Either way, she was never given the chance to achieve anything beyond fighting and dying.

This sort of reminds me of Liara's (always good) interpretation of the Protheans until she actually meets one and find out what they were really like.

However, what we do know is that although the magisters were weakened they still held power and the Chantry were oppressed by them until they grew in power. Even then the Circle system didn't exist until the mages themselves asked for it. And even then the mages were never under any type of servitude to the Chantry. So regardless of what Andraste meant by her words mages were never slaves to the religion that grew from her. If anything, the current (or now former) state of the Chantry, Circle, and Templars is more due to the product of the changing times than anything religious in nature.

If anything, the Circle and Templars breaking away from the Chantry was inevitable. What worked in the past just couldn't work today and honestly I think it's better for the Templar Order to return to what they once were, the Inquistion and leave religion out of it.

[TEWR]

Either way, she was never given the chance to achieve anything beyond fighting and dying.

And writing her own Canticle.

[LOLandStuff]

And here I thought the Maker turned his back because he gets easily tired of his toys.

Besides, maybe Andraste was a mage looking for a middle ground and to do so she had to get rid of Tevinter but died ended up dead. The whole "Maker spoke to me" thing was just a reason to encourage people into following her.

[Lord Raijin]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
Tevinter Imperium does not represent all mages. Not all mages wants to live the life by Tevinter Imperium standards. Just because you give Mages freedom doesn't mean that their going to snatch up a bunch of non-mages and enslave them. They're not going to turn to blood magic, and then use their slaves as fuel for their blood magic.

Look at the apostate Malcolm Hawke for an example of what a lot of mages want. Freedom and the chance to raise a family of their own.

But can really deny that there are some mages who want vengence on the Chantry and the Templars? And that hatred won't fester over time until it is the mages who are subjugating non-mages "for their own good" and at worst abusing them as payback for what was done to them? Just like what non-mages did over time after the fall of the Imperium?

During templar vs mages war I'm pretty much certain that this will happen just as well as the templars capturing mages and abusing them out of vengence. That is just a sad part of war that is bound to happen. Nobody plays fair nor nice.

Theirs going to be some **** mages just as theirs going to be some **** templars (Red templars) but because they decided to be an **** does not reflect on their class as a whole.

[HiroVoid]

LOLandStuff wrote...

And here I thought the Maker turned his back because he gets easily tired of his toys.

Besides, maybe Andraste was a mage looking for a middle ground and to do so she had to get rid of Tevinter but died ended up dead. The whole "Maker spoke to me" thing was just a reason to encourage people into following her.

If anything, she was probably more like Leliana in how she believed the Maker spoke to her.

[HiroVoid]

dragonflight288 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

I am still waiting on some actual facts of Andrastes views and ideas on magic. Not hearsay or biased interpretations.

Would you be happy with strong evidence that suggests Andraste was a mage herself? It isn't proof, but it is strongly implied.

Such as?  Also, Andraste being a mage doesn't discount anything in the same way a mage Hawke can annul a circle, a mage warden can be pro-circle, and the way a female courier can be pro-legion in FO:NV.

Here's a link of a strong list of evidence that Etheral posted awhile back.

Also, the link he provides goes to this picture.

https://encrypted-tb...I19nLf0huw7AvyA

Now this statue of Andraste was built by those who knew her personally, and it's placed directly above her ashes. If your cunning is high enough, the Guardian will admit to knowing Andraste personally.

Aside from the list of evidence Etheral provides in my link, I think it's quite telling where the followers of Andraste decided to place the flame.

Alright.  This is better evidence.  Of course, where else were they going to put the flame, on top of her head?  I personally agree that she was probably a mage, but I still think it's one of those things that's better off not being revealed.  To me, it's just too simple to go 'Look!  Andraste was a mage!  This is wrong!' as a way to try to solve the current war.

[Lotion Soronarr]

cjones91 wrote...
No I don't.They may have agreed to abide by the Chantry's rules but a good majority of Rivain does their own thing.

...
Underlined.
They agreed. The Circle broke the agreement. Case closed.
The Chantry annuled the Circle, not " a good majority of Rivain".

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And led to Anders laboring under the belief that Spirits are good no matter what, and Demons are bad all the time. When the fact is, as Merrill said, ALL denizens of the Fade are dangerous and there is no such thing as a good spirit.

Do not use Anders as a mage model - all he's done his entire life is being a giant faliure and ruinning away from Circles.

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion thedas is in ruins the chantry is in shambles and the
templars have become red lyrium demon lovers all because the mages have
said : ****** of. So the segregation is not keeping people safe. Its the
mages that stayed their hand untill the templars pissed them of.

Other way around.
The poeple aren't safe because there is no more segragation going on.
Saying segragation isn't keeping people safe is like saying vaccination ins't helping you to not get sick - AFTER you stop using vaccination. Or like saying armor isn't protecting you, but you're not wearing it in the first place.

Mages went too far, not the templars.

[Lotion Soronarr]

cjones91 wrote...

What part of she wanted magic to serve man don't you understand?You can call it biased but Andraste did'nt start locking all of the Tevinter mages up since it started centuries after her death.

What part of "don't twist words to suit your own menaing and use it as a fact" don't YOU understand?

Andraste was burned at the stake. She didn't have time to do any organization changes or lock up mages, given that she was very bussy toppling Tevinter.