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[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We don't even know what the Red Templars are yet. We don't know how they came into being, we don't know their end goal or their motivations. All we know is they are called Red Templars, and appear to attack the Inquisitor at occasion. Of course that doesn't preven DKJaigen from making up his own headcanon and then trying to apply it to the world, with no evidence to back it up.

True. We have no idea what their endgame is. But from what we have seen so far in the PAX demo, even you cannot deny that their goals seem somewhat suspect. I am hardpressed to find a reason that could justify attacking an innocent village.

Oh without a doubt. Anyone/anything that attacks the PC is always suspect. I'm just saying that we don't have any sufficient data to discuss Red Templars in any other capacity than them being villains. We don't know their origins, their numbers, their motivations, their endgame. Basically we don't know anything about them.

Exactly. And until we know more, we cannot make any serious allegations about what they are or what their goals would entail.

[Lord Raijin]

eluvianix wrote...

I am pro-mage all the way dude, and I still think the Order is pretty **** strong, all things considered. As for what they can do to help, Templars can rid or cleanse an area of magic, no? While maybe unable to close a tear entirely, could they possibly weaken a tear's effect on the surrounding environment? Maybe doing so could make it harder to demons to fully manifest when they cross over. Templars, at the very least, can help fight off demons much better than the average soldier who has never encountered one. And another point, Templars can sense ambient magic, right? So why can't they help to locate the tears? Because I am pretty sure that the tears are pretty much pure magic.

Like you I'm also pro-mage however the Order isn't as strong as you think it is. They lack of any real ability other than to use a highly addictive compound to use against the mages. I view Templars as athletes who decided to uses performance enhancing drugs to artificially enhance their athletic ability. Like any other drug it comes with side effects... and I don't need to go into a full explanation on what lyrium do to long-term users. Without lyrium their ability to cleanse magic and dispelled mana from mages cease to exist. What if theirs a dangerous shortage of the compound... what will become of the Order? A bunch of withdrawal addicts who will probably be more of a threat to society than the mages themselves. Addiction has been commonly known to cause people (who are having withdrawals) to commit murder just so they can rob the person to get their next fix. We already witness just how pathetic a templar can be in DAO when hasn't had his Lyrium fix for a while due to an incarceration from a power hungry non-mage. He becomes rather whiny and renders himself useless. What would happen if large portion of the templars was struggling to get their next fix? Especially with so many of them having detached themselves from the Chantry. They would be useless to fight off against demons, and even if they did get their fix they cant seem to be able to defend a bunch of them considering the fact that almost all of the templars in the Circle tower were either slaughtered by demons or hiding.

Biggest weakness for the templars = Lyrium dependence

It seems as if the Qunari has their **** together. I have more faith over them than the Templars.. even know they're very anti-mage. The advancement of technology will always win.

[Schneidend]

Lord Raijin wrote...

*snip*

Biggest weakness for the templars = Lyrium dependence

It seems as if the Qunari has their **** together. I have more faith over them than the Templars.. even know they're very anti-mage. The advancement of technology will always win.

Actually, lyrium doesn't actually do anything for a Templar. Alistair doesn't need lyrium to use his Templar powers, and neither does a Warrior/Templar Hawke.

[Icy Magebane]

There are a number of spells specifically designed to counter or neutralize magic. The Templars should simply expand their ranks to include mages dedicated to policing their brethren (Aequitarians, Loyalists, and mostly likely a good number of Lucrosians)... If mages were allowed to be a part of the effort to enforce the law, it would eliminate a lot of the fear and hatred directed towards them. This type of Templar would perhaps be even more effective, because they are not at risk of lyrium addiction. The fact that this hasn't been done tells me that the Chantry is mostly interested in maintaining their political power by having a standing army present in every nation.

[Star fury]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

i know just kill new-born mages problem solved.

There was something similar to your proposal in the Wheel of Time. There women mages severed a magical ability(on par with tranquilisation) from men mages because all men went mad eventually if they used magic.

[LOLandStuff]

Maybe the Red Templars sniff up red lyrium because it's the only one they can get. Maybe they do so because they still want to carry out their duty and hunt down mages, with Chantry approval or not. I don't see why some need to judge and demonize them when mages do kind of the same thing.
"Here, let me slit my wrists for some magic." that's like using red lyrium.
Since mages seem to be always victims no mater what, I don't see why the Red Templars can't be the same. Making a bad decision, maybe not even knowing the consequences of red lyrium because they were desperate enough to stop rampant mages, but it all backfired.
Both sides have good and bad examples. And excusing mages for using blood magic is just dumb.

[ScarMK]

Schneidend wrote...

Actually, lyrium doesn't actually do anything for a Templar. Alistair doesn't need lyrium to use his Templar powers, and neither does a Warrior/Templar Hawke.

It was changed so lyrium IS needed for templar abilities.  Hawke and the Warden get a pass because they're the PC snowflakes.  Same reason mage/blood mage Hawke/Warden doesn't feel the temptation of demons and junk.

Modifié par ScarMK, 04 novembre 2013 - 05:11 .

[Lord Raijin]

[quote]Schneidend wrote...
Mages represent a danger regardless of Chantry propaganda. I'm not suggesting the Chantry is squeaky clean, or that the current system is the best one, but mages NEED non-mage supervision from people with authority, even if only as a precaution in case they turn.[/quote]

So does a typical currupted politicians who want nothing more than to have power and greed. Look how much damage they can cause to civilized society. Look at what the non-mages (Loghain Mac Tir @ Rendon Howe) did to the elves in Denerim Elven Alienage, even went as far as to allow the Tevinters to conduct their slavery business despite it being highly illegal in Ferelden. Loghain not only had his King killed by betraying him, but also started a civil war.... during a fricken BLIGHT!

Base on what I'm seeing here apparently it is the non-mages themselves that shopuld be supervised. They can't seem to behave themselves. Perhabs the Qunari should intervene and force them all to convert to the Qun, especially after what happen in DA2.

[quote]
1. Non-mages can't annihilate townships by thinking about it, or even NOT thinking about it.[/quote]


2. Sten was a mass murderer. He's infinitely more dangerous than Lothering's Revered Mother. Granted, though, the Mother in Lothering is a stupid cow for refusing to accept the Rite of Conscription, but that's an entirely separate issue.

3. The prisoner at Ostagar was a deserter. He was doomed from the start.

4. Again, mages can shoot fire out of their brains. Any suggestion that they're less dangerous than a non-mage is laughable.

[/quote]

1. Do I need to remind you about what happen to the elves at the Elven Alienage in Denerim? This was not the work of mages. It was non-mages who made it happen. Lets not forget what happen at Ostagar, where a non-mage essentinally aided the darkspawn by allowing his king to die along with the Warden Commander without backup. You honestly need to re-read your history to see just dangerous non-mages truly are.

2. What do you do to mass murderers? You execute them... chop off their heads or hang them. If you allow them to suffer then you are no better than they are.

3. And if hes guilty of being a deserter then you hang him, not let him hang inside some cage where he starves to death. Starvation is a brutal form of torture. Nobody should have to go through it.

4. Base on the history... yeah they're still more dangerous.

[Lord Raijin]

Schneidend wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

*snip*

Biggest weakness for the templars = Lyrium dependence

It seems as if the Qunari has their **** together. I have more faith over them than the Templars.. even know they're very anti-mage. The advancement of technology will always win.

Actually, lyrium doesn't actually do anything for a Templar. Alistair doesn't need lyrium to use his Templar powers, and neither does a Warrior/Templar Hawke.

Gameplay. They're were plenty of it, especially in DA2.

Heres what Mr. Gaider said in an interview regarding to templars and Lyrium. http://swooping-is-b...om/1286233.html

TUK: The Templar abilities, are they--despite the Chantry's protestations--a form of magic?

DG: I would say that they are magic, they derive from lyrium, which is magic. The tricky thing there is that the Chantry is awfully hypocritical when it comes to magic, in that there are sorts of magic that they will use. Actually I should take that back, it's not necessarily that they're hypocritical, they don't have anything against magic itself. Magic can be useful, they know the mages are useful. It's the elements of possession and blood magic, all the forbidden magic where things get really dicey. Even if Templar magic was recognized as spellcasting, it's not innate to the Templars, if they just stopped taking lyrium eventually they would lose the ability. Although as Alistair proves, they can use the ability for a long time afterwards. I think part of that was just the requirements of gameplay, for us to have a specialization as well, so some of that story doesn't quite match up with the gameplay, and I think eventually we'd like to work the lyrium requirement back into the gameplay as well. Regardless the magic the Templars use doesn't involve mind control, it's not forbidden magic, there's nothing about it--especially since it can only against mages--there's nothing about it that would make the Chantry step in and go "Wow, that's bad." But then we're talking about a Chantry that also has phylacteries in every Circle, which is a type of blood magic, so there's definitely an element of hypocrisy there.

[The Xand]

Crikey. This is a massive thread so I'm just going to pick someone at random to argue with.

Lord Raijin wrote...

2.
Sten was a mass murderer. He's infinitely more dangerous than
Lothering's Revered Mother. Granted, though, the Mother in Lothering is a
stupid cow for refusing to accept the Rite of Conscription, but that's
an entirely separate issue.

Sten was lovely.

Lord Raijin wrote...

3. The prisoner at Ostagar was a deserter. He was doomed from the start.

That doesn't mean I didn't feel bad when I stabbed him for his key.

Lord Raijin wrote...

4. Again, mages can shoot fire out of their brains. Any suggestion that they're less dangerous than a non-mage is laughable.

Just because they have innate weapons doesn't mean that they're going to use them.


But yes. I'd probably class myself as more in favour of the Templars. The mages live relatively comfortable lives, if under considerable control. It's no less than what we're used to in modern society however with maybe a little more supervision. The alternative is mages running rampant, abusing their powers and occasionally flipping their nut and turning into abominations.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 05:53 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
I've tried in the past. Even made a thread devoted to honest discussion and findin a compromise gamers would be willing to live with. Problem is, some people like Lotion on the templar side, refuse to compromise on anything like letting mages visit families, and absolutely insist that there was nothing wrong with the system in he first place.

Stop spreading lies about me. It's not nice.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Shifting goalposts now that your initial argument have been debunked?

So, you're saying an elite fighting force with high magic reistance, equipped with fine armor and weapons, is a liability?
What does that make everyone else then?

Regular soldeirs?
Squishy mages?
Grey Wardens?

Useless.

No its clled the inquisition. your their to clean up the chantry's mess.

The Chantry mess? Are you now claiming THEY openened the vail tears?

And what is the Inquisitions plan?
Where is their contingency?
If the Inquisiton predicted the veil tears and was prepared for the invasion, why didn't it prevent it? Huh? Apply the same standards please!

[TheKomandorShepard]

Star fury wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

i know just kill new-born mages problem solved.

There was something similar to your proposal in the Wheel of Time. There women mages severed a magical ability(on par with tranquilisation) from men mages because all men went mad eventually if they used magic.

Better kill them than tranquil without di*** like fate worse than dead and call that mercy that chantry is fond.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 04 novembre 2013 - 06:20 .

[dragonflight288]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
I've tried in the past. Even made a thread devoted to honest discussion and findin a compromise gamers would be willing to live with. Problem is, some people like Lotion on the templar side, refuse to compromise on anything like letting mages visit families, and absolutely insist that there was nothing wrong with the system in he first place.

Stop spreading lies about me. It's not nice.

You specifically said, earlier in this very thread that the system was fine. Those were your words. It's not a lie if you said it.

EDIT: Here's the link of when you said it, in this very thread.

Granted, you also said that templars need more oversight, and I agree with that, but you pretty much said word for word that the system is fine.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 04 novembre 2013 - 07:42 .

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Shifting goalposts now that your initial argument have been debunked?

So, you're saying an elite fighting force with high magic reistance, equipped with fine armor and weapons, is a liability?
What does that make everyone else then?

Regular soldeirs?
Squishy mages?
Grey Wardens?

Useless.

No its clled the inquisition. your their to clean up the chantry's mess.

The Chantry mess? Are you now claiming THEY openened the vail tears?

And what is the Inquisitions plan?
Where is their contingency?
If the Inquisiton predicted the veil tears and was prepared for the invasion, why didn't it prevent it? Huh? Apply the same standards please!

No, he was referring to the Mage vs Templar War, not the Veil sundering.

[Medhia Nox]

@eluvianix: That's still not the Chantry's mess... 1000 years of Templars hunting down mages mercilessly would have been in place had the Chantry not intervened.

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: That's still not the Chantry's mess... 1000 years of Templars hunting down mages mercilessly would have been in place had the Chantry not intervened.

I am not saying that it is, although the Chantry is partially at fault. Nonetheless, I was simply trying to clairfy for Lotion what DKJaigen was referring to.

[Schneidend]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Gameplay. They're were plenty of it, especially in DA2. 

Heres what Mr. Gaider said in an interview regarding to templars and Lyrium. http://swooping-is-b...om/1286233.html
...

Alistair tells you, in dialogue, that he doesn't need lyrium to use his powers. It's not an issue of gameplay/story segregation if it is addressed in-character and in-universe as not being an issue.

The Xand wrote...

Sten was lovely.

I'm not suggesting that Sten was not a great character, but lets be real here. The Chantry was well within its rights to arrest him, and Sten not only confessed to the murders, but actually committed them. I freed him because my Grey Warden needed all the help he could get, and I feel he redeemed himself fighting evil, but my Hawke probably would have left him to rot (and technically kinda did, being from Lothering and all).

That doesn't mean I didn't feel bad when I stabbed him for his key.

It also doesn't mean that the Revered Mother or anybody else was under any obligation to feed a money who was certain to be executed, as Lord Raijin attempted to argue.

Just because they have innate weapons doesn't mean that they're going to use them.

But yes. I'd probably class myself as more in favour of the Templars. The mages live relatively comfortable lives, if under considerable control. It's no less than what we're used to in modern society however with maybe a little more supervision. The alternative is mages running rampant, abusing their powers and occasionally flipping their nut and turning into abominations.

An undisciplined or stressed mage can unintentionally use magic, so intent to use the innate weapon isn't even the issue. Wynne set a kid ON FIRE when she was a child.

[DKJaigen]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: That's still not the Chantry's mess... 1000 years of Templars hunting down mages mercilessly would have been in place had the Chantry not intervened.

It already has been pretty much confirmed that an outside influence is responsible for the mage-templar war . It the end its a house of cards that can be easily tipped over. 1000 years of mercilessly mage hunting means nothing if somebody turns that against you and conquers you.

[HiroVoid]

Schneidend wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Gameplay. They're were plenty of it, especially in DA2. 

Heres what Mr. Gaider said in an interview regarding to templars and Lyrium. http://swooping-is-b...om/1286233.html
...

Alistair tells you, in dialogue, that he doesn't need lyrium to use his powers. It's not an issue of gameplay/story segregation if it is addressed in-character and in-universe as not being an issue.

Well, that was your problem with this theory.  You thought Alistair was right.  In the latest comics, Alistair suddenly remembered 'Oh wait!  I do need lyrium for templar abilities!' written by head writer of the series.

[Hellion Rex]

DKJaigen wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: That's still not the Chantry's mess... 1000 years of Templars hunting down mages mercilessly would have been in place had the Chantry not intervened.

It already has been pretty much confirmed that an outside influence is responsible for the mage-templar war . It the end its a house of cards that can be easily tipped over. 1000 years of mercilessly mage hunting means nothing if somebody turns that against you and conquers you.

I think in that case, the devs  were specifically referring to the Veil tears. While this outside influence might have helped to ratchet up the tensions, this war was long in coming, which will make it that much harder to divine the true cause of the Veil tears.

Modifié par eluvianix, 04 novembre 2013 - 08:28 .

[ScarMK]

HiroVoid wrote...

Well, that was your problem with this theory.  You thought Alistair was right.  In the latest comics, Alistair suddenly remembered 'Oh wait!  I do need lyrium for templar abilities!' written by head writer of the series.

Pretty much this.  Call it a retcon or whatever you want, but it is a fact now that templars DO require lyrium for their talents.

Modifié par ScarMK, 04 novembre 2013 - 08:28 .

[HiroVoid]

I wonder if this'll be brought up since specializations are supposed to be noted more in story with DA: I.

[Hellion Rex]

Icy Magebane wrote...

There are a number of spells specifically designed to counter or neutralize magic. The Templars should simply expand their ranks to include mages dedicated to policing their brethren (Aequitarians, Loyalists, and mostly likely a good number of Lucrosians)... If mages were allowed to be a part of the effort to enforce the law, it would eliminate a lot of the fear and hatred directed towards them. This type of Templar would perhaps be even more effective, because they are not at risk of lyrium addiction. The fact that this hasn't been done tells me that the Chantry is mostly interested in maintaining their political power by having a standing army present in every nation.

Thank God, I am not the only one who think so. Adding mages to help out the Order would certainly assuage fears and hatred. A combination of the two is required to solve our problems.

[TheKomandorShepard]

eluvianix wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

There are a number of spells specifically designed to counter or neutralize magic. The Templars should simply expand their ranks to include mages dedicated to policing their brethren (Aequitarians, Loyalists, and mostly likely a good number of Lucrosians)... If mages were allowed to be a part of the effort to enforce the law, it would eliminate a lot of the fear and hatred directed towards them. This type of Templar would perhaps be even more effective, because they are not at risk of lyrium addiction. The fact that this hasn't been done tells me that the Chantry is mostly interested in maintaining their political power by having a standing army present in every nation.

Thank God, I am not the only one who think so. Adding mages to help out the Order would certainly assuage fears and hatred. A combination of the two is required to solve our problems.

Not at all it will leand to tensions because simple templars will want punish mages hard death and itp and mages will want softer punishments so it will in one side templars will take control in what they are obsessive or in tevinter side.