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[Lotion Soronarr]

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Annulment wouldn't happen. Only killing demons, not all mages.

Which would leave demons within your midst, there to corrupt more mages and escape.

Right...so killng demons leaves demons in our midst. Makes perfect, logical sense.

Because you can't detect who is possesed and who isn't?
A smart abomination can easily hide.

The Baroness? Uldred? Connor? Wilmond? They can look human and act human if they want.
That's precisely why the Annulment exists.


***

Also, having a circle where the templars answer to the mages and mages have free reign (with templars only outside the circle) is a recepie for disaster.
Wihout someone to keep an eye, they'll be dabbling in forbiddenmagic and summoning demons in no time.
Just look at the Circle in Rivian - the Chantry was lenient and half the Circle ended up possesed.
Uldred managed to turn or kill half the mages in the tower - desite the templars beign there. Just think of what he could do if there weren't any.

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Annulment wouldn't happen. Only killing demons, not all mages.

Which would leave demons within your midst, there to corrupt more mages and escape.

Right...so killng demons leaves demons in our midst. Makes perfect, logical sense.

Because you can't detect who is possesed and who isn't?
A smart abomination can easily hide.

The Baroness? Uldred? Connor? Wilmond? They can look human and act human if they want.
That's precisely why the Annulment exists.


***

Also, having a circle where the templars answer to the mages and mages have free reign (with templars only outside the circle) is a recepie for disaster.
Wihout someone to keep an eye, they'll be dabbling in forbiddenmagic and summoning demons in no time.
Just look at the Circle in Rivian - the Chantry was lenient and half the Circle ended up possesed.
Uldred managed to turn or kill half the mages in the tower - desite the templars beign there. Just think of what he could do if there weren't any.

So we just kill all the mages, and hope for the best?

As for Rivain, some Seeker jumped the gun, leading into a bloody Annulment. Regardless, we do not have any proof of abominations, beyond the seers possessed by spirits, running amok at Dairsmuid, so that is hardly a good example. 

[HiroVoid]

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Annulment wouldn't happen. Only killing demons, not all mages.

Which would leave demons within your midst, there to corrupt more mages and escape.

Right...so killng demons leaves demons in our midst. Makes perfect, logical sense.

Because you can't detect who is possesed and who isn't?
A smart abomination can easily hide.

The Baroness? Uldred? Connor? Wilmond? They can look human and act human if they want.
That's precisely why the Annulment exists.


***

Also, having a circle where the templars answer to the mages and mages have free reign (with templars only outside the circle) is a recepie for disaster.
Wihout someone to keep an eye, they'll be dabbling in forbiddenmagic and summoning demons in no time.
Just look at the Circle in Rivian - the Chantry was lenient and half the Circle ended up possesed.
Uldred managed to turn or kill half the mages in the tower - desite the templars beign there. Just think of what he could do if there weren't any.

So we just kill all the mages, and hope for the best?

As for Rivain, some Seeker jumped the gun, leading into a bloody Annulment. Regardless, we do not have any proof of abominations, beyond the seers possessed by spirits, running amok at Dairsmuid, so that is hardly a good example. 

This is why it SHOULD be considered a last resort call.  It's also why I say the DA:O circle example was more grey.  Gregaoir called it only when his forces couldn't fight back and the mages (along with a certain number of templars) were left with demons going around either killing or converting everyone while he'd have to wait for at least days for reinforcements to arrive.

[Hellion Rex]

HiroVoid wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Annulment wouldn't happen. Only killing demons, not all mages.

Which would leave demons within your midst, there to corrupt more mages and escape.

Right...so killng demons leaves demons in our midst. Makes perfect, logical sense.

Because you can't detect who is possesed and who isn't?
A smart abomination can easily hide.

The Baroness? Uldred? Connor? Wilmond? They can look human and act human if they want.
That's precisely why the Annulment exists.


***

Also, having a circle where the templars answer to the mages and mages have free reign (with templars only outside the circle) is a recepie for disaster.
Wihout someone to keep an eye, they'll be dabbling in forbiddenmagic and summoning demons in no time.
Just look at the Circle in Rivian - the Chantry was lenient and half the Circle ended up possesed.
Uldred managed to turn or kill half the mages in the tower - desite the templars beign there. Just think of what he could do if there weren't any.

So we just kill all the mages, and hope for the best?

As for Rivain, some Seeker jumped the gun, leading into a bloody Annulment. Regardless, we do not have any proof of abominations, beyond the seers possessed by spirits, running amok at Dairsmuid, so that is hardly a good example. 

This is why it SHOULD be considered a last resort call.  It's also why I say the DA:O circle example was more grey.  Gregaoir called it only when his forces couldn't fight back and the mages (along with a certain number of templars) were left with demons going around either killing or converting everyone while he'd have to wait for at least days for reinforcements to arrive.

That is where the problem lies though. Both sides have extremely different opinions as to when a "last resort" is required.

[Lord Raijin]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Also, having a circle where the templars answer to the mages and mages have free reign (with templars only outside the circle) is a recepie for disaster.
Wihout someone to keep an eye, they'll be dabbling in forbiddenmagic and summoning demons in no time.
Just look at the Circle in Rivian - the Chantry was lenient and half the Circle ended up possesed.
Uldred managed to turn or kill half the mages in the tower - desite the templars beign there. Just think of what he could do if there weren't any.

Thats a load of crap. Just because you give mages their freedom without the supervision of the Chantry does not mean that every single mage in Thedas is going to start dabbling in the forbidden art of magic and summoning demons. Thats just pure speculation that does not weight in any facts. Perhabs some might, but not all.

[Lotion Soronarr]

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Because you can't detect who is possesed and who isn't?
A smart abomination can easily hide.

The Baroness? Uldred? Connor? Wilmond? They can look human and act human if they want.
That's precisely why the Annulment exists.

***

Also, having a circle where the templars answer to the mages and mages have free reign (with templars only outside the circle) is a recepie for disaster.
Wihout someone to keep an eye, they'll be dabbling in forbiddenmagic and summoning demons in no time.
Just look at the Circle in Rivian - the Chantry was lenient and half the Circle ended up possesed.
Uldred managed to turn or kill half the mages in the tower - desite the templars beign there. Just think of what he could do if there weren't any.

So we just kill all the mages, and hope for the best?

As for Rivain, some Seeker jumped the gun, leading into a bloody Annulment. Regardless, we do not have any proof of abominations, beyond the seers possessed by spirits, running amok at Dairsmuid, so that is hardly a good example.

You don't have much options. If even one abomination escapes it can create others and corrupt other mages. A outbreak of multiple abominatiosn can spell death for thousands.

And when you literally put fade entities into every single woman in the Circle, you've defiantely gone too far. Just look at Anders and "Justice". Clearly harmless.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Also, having a circle where the templars answer to the mages and mages have free reign (with templars only outside the circle) is a recepie for disaster.
Wihout someone to keep an eye, they'll be dabbling in forbiddenmagic and summoning demons in no time.
Just look at the Circle in Rivian - the Chantry was lenient and half the Circle ended up possesed.
Uldred managed to turn or kill half the mages in the tower - desite the templars beign there. Just think of what he could do if there weren't any.

Thats a load of crap. Just because you give mages their freedom without the supervision of the Chantry does not mean that every single mage in Thedas is going to start dabbling in the forbidden art of magic and summoning demons. Thats just pure speculation that does not weight in any facts. Perhabs some might, but not all.

And I never said ALL will.
They don't have to. Did all the mages turn in Ferelden? No. Still the circle was a mess. And that was WITH the templars to watch for forbidden magics and fight off the demons. Both temaplrs and mages fought and died.
Now imageine if there werne't any tempalrs in the tower? How easier could Ulderd corrupt? How many more mages would he have turned or slain? How many more abominations would have stormed out of the tower?

[Dave of Canada]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Perhabs some might, but not all.

And that's enough for me to see the Circles as completely necessary. Hell, they're the moderate option.

[ianvillan]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And I never said ALL will.
They don't have to. Did all the mages turn in Ferelden? No. Still the circle was a mess. And that was WITH the templars to watch for forbidden magics and fight off the demons. Both temaplrs and mages fought and died.
Now imageine if there werne't any tempalrs in the tower? How easier could Ulderd corrupt? How many more mages would he have turned or slain? How many more abominations would have stormed out of the tower?

If their was no Templars in the circle Uldred might not of resorted to dealing with demons to escape the Templars, or if the mages weren't so afraid of the Templars killing them unjustly they might of been able to see what Uldred was doing and stopped him.

From what I saw their might as well of been no Templars in the tower for all the hiding they were doing, Wynne had a barrier stopping the Abominations escaping, It was Wynne and two apprentices fighting a demon while the Templars were in the next room and did nothing to help.

The main purpose of having Templars in the circles is to stop Abominations yet when they do come they do nothing and leave it to the mages to handle.

[Br3admax]

1. The Templars were waiting because legally they could not do anything. Also Wynne didn't handle anything. She just sat there, died, and waited for someone else to do it for her.
2. Uldred is a psychopath. Stop playing the blame game.
3. Read number one.

[Sainna]

I strongly believe the ''circle'' is needed but in it's current form it is spawning as many problems as it is fixing. I also think Templars becoming harsher on the mage subject will actually make matters even worse.

I would still like to see a circles to what mages belong, where they have to learn magic and control but after a certain time are allowed to bounce around and even settle down, have family's. Of course there would still be templars and seekers and whatnot to make sure nothing gets out of hand. Imagine it as a school and not quite the school in prison thingy we have now in DA.

Oh and just to be clear I am actually a mage supporter and will probably play one in my first DA:I playthrough. But I am not naive enough to believe that full mage freedom would resolve anything but I am also pretty sure if templars crack down harder, mages will start to push back harder and it will just be one mess after another.

Modifié par Sainna, 05 novembre 2013 - 12:16 .

[LOLandStuff]

I remember Uldred being in league with Loghain and knowing exactly what happened at Ostagar.
The Circle turned against Uldred once they found out. I don't see how he's the victim of the templars.

[Br3admax]

Because oppression. Why else, man?

[AngryFrozenWater]

If the Veil is the problem then mage possessions in those parts where it is thin are a result of that. So if that's the theme of DA:I then hopefully the problem gets more or less solved in that game. I wonder how that actually works out, though. And would it it have implications for Tevinter? No idea.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 novembre 2013 - 12:54 .

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Hard for mages to lord over the nonmages when Templars actually sit there on the same councils as the mages.

Let's say there is a council formed by an equal merchant-princes and common peasants who, in theory, have equal say on decision-making. But the merchants have fortunes with which bribe officials, hire armies and just generally make life unpleasant for anyone who speaks against them. The peasants have the seat on the council, nothing else.
Would you like to take a guess as to whose voice will have greater weight on said council?

Would this be what would happen with this "council" of templars and mages? Maybe, maybe not. But the simple presence of someone at a table and the right to speak means, by itself, absolutely nothing.

But surely that is a step in the right direction, no? What would you have happen to broker a compromise then?

I wouldn't presume to know what is the right direction.

What I do know is that if the person you're supposed to police and punish if s/he goes too far is the same person that is paying your salary, any chance for effectiveness is greatly reduced.
Having templars answer to mages is exactly what happens in Tevinter.

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Because you can't detect who is possesed and who isn't?
A smart abomination can easily hide.

The Baroness? Uldred? Connor? Wilmond? They can look human and act human if they want.
That's precisely why the Annulment exists.

***

Also, having a circle where the templars answer to the mages and mages have free reign (with templars only outside the circle) is a recepie for disaster.
Wihout someone to keep an eye, they'll be dabbling in forbiddenmagic and summoning demons in no time.
Just look at the Circle in Rivian - the Chantry was lenient and half the Circle ended up possesed.
Uldred managed to turn or kill half the mages in the tower - desite the templars beign there. Just think of what he could do if there weren't any.

So we just kill all the mages, and hope for the best?

As for Rivain, some Seeker jumped the gun, leading into a bloody Annulment. Regardless, we do not have any proof of abominations, beyond the seers possessed by spirits, running amok at Dairsmuid, so that is hardly a good example.

You don't have much options. If even one abomination escapes it can create others and corrupt other mages. A outbreak of multiple abominatiosn can spell death for thousands.

And when you literally put fade entities into every single woman in the Circle, you've defiantely gone too far. Just look at Anders and "Justice". Clearly harmless.

Wynne and Evangeline say hello. 

[Hellion Rex]

Br3ad wrote...

1. The Templars were waiting because legally they could not do anything. Also Wynne didn't handle anything. She just sat there, died, and waited for someone else to do it for her.
2. Uldred is a psychopath. Stop playing the blame game.
3. Read number one.

Wynne was sitting there keeping a spell going that barred the demons from escaping out of the Circle Tower. 

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Hard for mages to lord over the nonmages when Templars actually sit there on the same councils as the mages.

Let's say there is a council formed by an equal merchant-princes and common peasants who, in theory, have equal say on decision-making. But the merchants have fortunes with which bribe officials, hire armies and just generally make life unpleasant for anyone who speaks against them. The peasants have the seat on the council, nothing else.
Would you like to take a guess as to whose voice will have greater weight on said council?

Would this be what would happen with this "council" of templars and mages? Maybe, maybe not. But the simple presence of someone at a table and the right to speak means, by itself, absolutely nothing.

But surely that is a step in the right direction, no? What would you have happen to broker a compromise then?

I wouldn't presume to know what is the right direction.

What I do know is that if the person you're supposed to police and punish if s/he goes too far is the same person that is paying your salary, any chance for effectiveness is greatly reduced.
Having templars answer to mages is exactly what happens in Tevinter.

For one, according to Gaider,  most templars in Tevinter lack the ability to counter magic, hence why the magisters rule with no opposition to their dominion.

[Hellion Rex]

Edit: Double post.

Modifié par eluvianix, 05 novembre 2013 - 02:38 .

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
For one, according to Gaider,  most templars in Tevinter lack the ability to counter magic, hence why the magisters rule with no opposition to their dominion.

It's actually the other way around. Those templars aren't being controlled because they don't have lyrium; they don't have lyrium because the magisters control the entire infrastructure of Tevinter.
Hence why mages shouldn't just control the infrastructure of the Circle, much less that of Thedas at large.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

1. The Templars were waiting because legally they could not do anything. Also Wynne didn't handle anything. She just sat there, died, and waited for someone else to do it for her.
2. Uldred is a psychopath. Stop playing the blame game.
3. Read number one.

Wynne was sitting there keeping a spell going that barred the demons from escaping out of the Circle Tower. 

That must explain the multitude of corpses strewn across the dormitories... Either Wynne was doing a shuddy job, and in that case it was actually the Templars who held back the demons anyway. Or else Wynne hadn't held the barrier up the whole time, and the Templars had held back the demons previously. You decide which one you want to be true, either way, the Templars held back the demons.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

1. The Templars were waiting because legally they could not do anything. Also Wynne didn't handle anything. She just sat there, died, and waited for someone else to do it for her.
2. Uldred is a psychopath. Stop playing the blame game.
3. Read number one.

Wynne was sitting there keeping a spell going that barred the demons from escaping out of the Circle Tower. 

That must explain the multitude of corpses strewn across the dormitories... Either Wynne was doing a shuddy job, and in that case it was actually the Templars who held back the demons anyway. Or else Wynne hadn't held the barrier up the whole time, and the Templars had held back the demons previously. You decide which one you want to be true, either way, the Templars held back the demons.

I never said that they didn't. Both templars and Wynne held back the demons together.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
For one, according to Gaider,  most templars in Tevinter lack the ability to counter magic, hence why the magisters rule with no opposition to their dominion.

It's actually the other way around. Those templars aren't being controlled because they don't have lyrium; they don't have lyrium because the magisters control the entire infrastructure of Tevinter.
Hence why mages shouldn't just control the infrastructure of the Circle, much less that of Thedas at large.

My reason for mentioning that was to show that in Andrastian Circles, Templars DO have access to lyrium, and control its trade. And because these templars can counter magic,  we have much less of a chance of this part of the world turning into Tevinter.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I would say that templars didn't do crap in tower and wynne didn't do better but hey she at least fight with them and she was grandma cleary shows templars competence łahaha.

[Lord Raijin]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And I never said ALL will.
They don't have to. Did all the mages turn in Ferelden? No. Still the circle was a mess. And that was WITH the templars to watch for forbidden magics and fight off the demons. Both temaplrs and mages fought and died.
Now imageine if there werne't any tempalrs in the tower? How easier could Ulderd corrupt? How many more mages would he have turned or slain? How many more abominations would have stormed out of the tower?

For as long as the Circle mages are treated like prisoners of the Chantry mages turning to blood magic and turning into an abomination is bound to happen. If their wern't any templars around mages like Ulderd and Jowan would not have done what they've did out of desperation. Anders wouldn't be such a troublesome either.

Let me ask you something and be honest with me. If you were a mage and I was your templar jailer. Would you like being treated like a prisoner without a conviction of a crime? Would you enjoy my Co-workers and I staring at every move that you make? How would you feel if my Co-workers and myself were treating you like a child instead of an adult? Lets pretend that I had a templar menality like Ser Alrik. I came across you and I found you very attractive. I wanted to turn you into one of my sex slaves, and so I use an excuse to have you get scheduled for the Rite of Tranquality despite your passing of your Harrowing. What would happen if you found out that you were scheduled for the Rite? Would you just stand around and do nothing, or would you do some serious planning and escape from the Circle at all cost?