4643 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And I never said ALL will.
They don't have to. Did all the mages turn in Ferelden? No. Still the circle was a mess. And that was WITH the templars to watch for forbidden magics and fight off the demons. Both temaplrs and mages fought and died.
Now imageine if there werne't any tempalrs in the tower? How easier could Ulderd corrupt? How many more mages would he have turned or slain? How many more abominations would have stormed out of the tower?

For as long as the Circle mages are treated like prisoners of the Chantry mages turning to blood magic and turning into an abomination is bound to happen. If their wern't any templars around mages like Ulderd and Jowan would not have done what they've did out of desperation. Anders wouldn't be such a troublesome either.

Let me ask you something and be honest with me. If you were a mage and I was your templar jailer. Would you like being treated like a prisoner without a conviction of a crime? Would you enjoy my Co-workers and I staring at every move that you make? How would you feel if my Co-workers and myself were treating you like a child instead of an adult? Lets pretend that I had a templar menality like Ser Alrik. I came across you and I found you very attractive. I wanted to turn you into one of my sex slaves, and so I use an excuse to have you get scheduled for the Rite of Tranquality despite your passing of your Harrowing. What would happen if you found out that you were scheduled for the Rite? Would you just stand around and do nothing, or would you do some serious planning and escape from the Circle at all cost?

Tevinter trarattata tevinter taratatata i want just remind to you this is dragon age most character are pr*** , insane or power hungry and being mage seems make this things even worse . 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 05 novembre 2013 - 04:55 .

[addiction21]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

I would say that templars didn't do crap in tower and wynne didn't do better but hey she at least fight with them and she was grandma cleary shows templars competence łahaha.

Knowing its a losing battle and falling back to a strong defensive position to wait reinforcements instead of dieing bloody is being competent. Of course Wynne has plot armor and the aid of the PC so that just makes her all powerfull

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
My reason for mentioning that was to show that in Andrastian Circles, Templars DO have access to lyrium, and control its trade. And because these templars can counter magic,  we have much less of a chance of this part of the world turning into Tevinter.

This assumes that the only way for mages to dominate is to beat the world into submission but that is not the case at all. If mages pay the salary of templars, then it won't matter if those templars are capable of disrupting mana or not. They won't do a thing against their mage masters.

[TheKomandorShepard]

addiction21 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

I would say that templars didn't do crap in tower and wynne didn't do better but hey she at least fight with them and she was grandma cleary shows templars competence łahaha.

Knowing its a losing battle and falling back to a strong defensive position to wait reinforcements instead of dieing bloody is being competent. Of course Wynne has plot armor and the aid of the PC so that just makes her all powerfull

her plot armor was crushed by my warden and in asunder they hidde behind wooden door if abomnation is truly such powerful this is only funny obstacle if they can't destroy wooden doors templars are suckers anyway and they lost had tower full of them and still lost. 

[Hazegurl]

eluvianix wrote...
Wynne and Evangeline say hello. 

Um didn't Wynne almost lose control and kill Evangeline?
And we have no idea what the future holds for Evangeline.

[The Hierophant]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And I never said ALL will.
They don't have to. Did all the mages turn in Ferelden? No. Still the circle was a mess. And that was WITH the templars to watch for forbidden magics and fight off the demons. Both temaplrs and mages fought and died.
Now imageine if there werne't any tempalrs in the tower? How easier could Ulderd corrupt? How many more mages would he have turned or slain? How many more abominations would have stormed out of the tower?

For as long as the Circle mages are treated like prisoners of the Chantry mages turning to blood magic and turning into an abomination is bound to happen. If their wern't any templars around mages like Ulderd and Jowan would not have done what they've did out of desperation. Anders wouldn't be such a troublesome either.

Jowan had no excuse aside from his own stupidity to practice blood magic, Uldred was a power hungry douche who tried to trick the CoM into working for Loghain, while...umm what abuse did Anders face again?

Let me ask you something and be honest with me. If you were a mage and I was your templar jailer. Would you like being treated like a prisoner without a conviction of a crime? Would you enjoy my Co-workers and I staring at every move that you make? How would you feel if my Co-workers and myself were treating you like a child instead of an adult? Lets pretend that I had a templar menality like Ser Alrik. I came across you and I found you very attractive. I wanted to turn you into one of my sex slaves, and so I use an excuse to have you get scheduled for the Rite of Tranquality despite your passing of your Harrowing. What would happen if you found out that you were scheduled for the Rite? Would you just stand around and do nothing, or would you do some serious planning and escape from the Circle at all cost?

It's a quarantine. Mages attract demons and are prone to possession, crime be darned.

Plus you use worst example of the Templars to dredge up sympathy and pretend that it's the norm for the order? It's like a pro Temp using Danarius as an example of who every free mage will turn into.

[Hazegurl]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
My reason for mentioning that was to show that in Andrastian Circles, Templars DO have access to lyrium, and control its trade. And because these templars can counter magic,  we have much less of a chance of this part of the world turning into Tevinter.

This assumes that the only way for mages to dominate is to beat the world into submission but that is not the case at all. If mages pay the salary of templars, then it won't matter if those templars are capable of disrupting mana or not. They won't do a thing against their mage masters.

Darn right, which makes most mages dumb for not using their knowledge and profits to gain their freedom in the first place.  

[MisterJB]

I've been saying for some time that the Lucrosians are far more dangerous than the Libertarians but that probrably wouldn't make a fun game.

[Hazegurl]

Lord Raijin wrote...
For as long as the Circle mages are treated like prisoners of the Chantry mages turning to blood magic and turning into an abomination is bound to happen.

Really? So circle mages are turning to forbidden magic only because of the Chantry and Templars? Really?

If their wern't any templars around mages like Ulderd and Jowan would not have done what they've did out of desperation. Anders wouldn't be such a troublesome either.

 
Okay, now explain why free mages turn to blood magic.

Let me ask you something and be honest with me. If you were a mage and I was your templar jailer. Would you like being treated like a prisoner without a conviction of a crime? Would you enjoy my Co-workers and I staring at every move that you make? How would you feel if my Co-workers and myself were treating you like a child instead of an adult?

It's important to separate the paragraphs here because the above is just the Templars doing their job and you perceiving it as being treated like a child.

Lets pretend that I had a templar menality like Ser Alrik. I came across you and I found you very attractive. I wanted to turn you into one of my sex slaves, and so I use an excuse to have you get scheduled for the Rite of Tranquality despite your passing of your Harrowing. What would happen if you found out that you were scheduled for the Rite? Would you just stand around and do nothing, or would you do some serious planning and escape from the Circle at all cost?

This is abuse and yes a mage should do whatever it takes to leave the Circle safely in this scenario especially after exhausting other avenues such as informing the First Enchanter and informing the Knight Commander. Becoming a demon summoning abomination is not escaping safely, btw.  

[Hazegurl]

MisterJB wrote...

I've been saying for some time that the Lucrosians are far more dangerous than the Libertarians but that probrably wouldn't make a fun game.

Oh yeah, if they had any real power they would be a force to be reckoned with. The mages would have their freedom and a whole lot more. The Templars are lucky they are so few in number.

[Lord Raijin]

LOLandStuff wrote...

I remember Uldred being in league with Loghain and knowing exactly what happened at Ostagar.
The Circle turned against Uldred once they found out. I don't see how he's the victim of the templars.

Ulderd was a member of the Libertarian in the Fraternities of Enchanters.

Libertarians desire the Circle to become an autonomous, self-regulating order without Chantry involvement at any level. While many Libertarians advocate the use of peaceful means to ensure their independence, such as a bill of secession they proposed to the College of Magi in 9:31 Dragon, at least one subgroup, the Resolutionists, are willing to pursue violent means to their ends.

So what exactly happen to Uldred and the Circle tower?

Uldred had nearly convinced the Circle to support Loghain Mac Tir, claiming that Loghain would reward the Circle's support by granting it more freedom from the Chantry, but when Wynne revealed Loghain's treachery to the Circle, they revoked their tentative support. At a meeting to discuss this, Uldred attempted to explain away Loghain's actions, but the other mages were unconvinced and Uldred attempted to leave. Irving would not allow this and Uldred then attacked with a group of blood mages supporting him. During this fight Uldred attempted to summon a Pride demon, but was overwhelmed and became an abomination.

Had the Circle been a self-regulating order without the Chantry involvements incidents such as what happen in Circle tower would of never happen.

It is the Chantries ridiculous rules and regulation is what push mages into desperate acts.

[Medhia Nox]

@Lord Raijin: So, you're saying that Wynne and Irving - two mages, told Uldred he was a sodding idiot... and then he attacked with a cadre of blood mages.

Interesting that the man had a group of blood mages to attack with... just "waiting".

Supporting Loghain is just stupid... that has nothing to do with the Chantry pushing anyone to desperate acts (which is pathetic and weak to begin with).

Uldred gathered an army to take over the tower - and then used it.

[The Hierophant]

Lord Raijin wrote...

LOLandStuff wrote...

I remember Uldred being in league with Loghain and knowing exactly what happened at Ostagar.
The Circle turned against Uldred once they found out. I don't see how he's the victim of the templars.

Ulderd was a member of the Libertarian in the Fraternities of Enchanters.

Libertarians desire the Circle to become an autonomous, self-regulating order without Chantry involvement at any level. While many Libertarians advocate the use of peaceful means to ensure their independence, such as a bill of secession they proposed to the College of Magi in 9:31 Dragon, at least one subgroup, the Resolutionists, are willing to pursue violent means to their ends.

So what exactly happen to Uldred and the Circle tower?

Uldred had nearly convinced the Circle to support Loghain Mac Tir, claiming that Loghain would reward the Circle's support by granting it more freedom from the Chantry, but when Wynne revealed Loghain's treachery to the Circle, they revoked their tentative support. At a meeting to discuss this, Uldred attempted to explain away Loghain's actions, but the other mages were unconvinced and Uldred attempted to leave. Irving would not allow this and Uldred then attacked with a group of blood mages supporting him. During this fight Uldred attempted to summon a Pride demon, but was overwhelmed and became an abomination.

Had the Circle been a self-regulating order without the Chantry involvements incidents such as what happen in Circle tower would of never happen.

It is the Chantries ridiculous rules and regulation is what push mages into desperate acts.

So Uldred threw a tantrum because the majority wisely voted against siding with Loghain and entering a potentially messy civil war?

All this does is make Uldred look bad, and provides an example of the Templars and Chantry having lax restrictions towards Ferelden's CoM as it's capable of voting in private whether it'll participate in a civil war or not.

Uldred's justification for the coup is flimsy, and self serving.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 05 novembre 2013 - 05:56 .

[The Elder King]

@Lord Raijin: Uldred didn't resort to blood magic because he was desperate. Nowhere it was stated that Uldred learn blood magic because he was desperate. It's far more likely that he learnt it because he wanted more power. Defending a man who was willing to subjugate his fellow mages with blood magic, and summoned a demon who would've slaughtered a lot of them even if Uldred was in control isn't helping your point. Uldred was a power-hungry extremist who fought for his own gain, not his fellow mages' freedom.
The same goes for Jowan, he didn't resort to blood magic because he was desperate. While I don't remember his exact words, he outright said that he wanted to be stronger or something similar. His own problem started with blood magic, since it's the reason why templars wanted to tranquilize him. 

I have a lot of problems with the current Circle system and the templars' treatment of mages, but to say that Circle mages resort to blood magic because they're desperate, and it'd all the Chantry/templars fault is inaccurate. There are mages who resorted to blood mages because of this reason, but not all of them, and certainly not the examples you mentioned.

Modifié par hhh89, 05 novembre 2013 - 05:50 .

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Ironically, it also shows how much gregor trusted irving and the circle, since he allowed them to meetI private and self govern. It shows templars and mages can work together and build rrtrust, and that the libertarians are wrong.

[Hellion Rex]

Hazegurl wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Wynne and Evangeline say hello. 

Um didn't Wynne almost lose control and kill Evangeline?
And we have no idea what the future holds for Evangeline.

To be fair though, Wynne was a bit desperate to save Rhys, no matter the consequences. She perceived Evangeline as being an obstacle to saving Rhys.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
My reason for mentioning that was to show that in Andrastian Circles, Templars DO have access to lyrium, and control its trade. And because these templars can counter magic,  we have much less of a chance of this part of the world turning into Tevinter.

This assumes that the only way for mages to dominate is to beat the world into submission but that is not the case at all. If mages pay the salary of templars, then it won't matter if those templars are capable of disrupting mana or not. They won't do a thing against their mage masters.

I am not even saying that mages pay their salaries. The Chantry would still control that function of the order. 

[The Elder King]

eluvianix wrote...

To be fair though, Wynne was a bit desperate to save Rhys, no matter the consequences. She perceived Evangeline as being an obstacle to saving Rhys.

So, was it Wynne's decision or was she controlled/influenced by Faith?
Regardless, I think spirit/human bonding is troublesome and dangerous. People should stay away with this, or a least not jumping on it with no knowledge of the matter like Anders did<_<).

[Hazegurl]

eluvianix wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Wynne and Evangeline say hello. 

Um didn't Wynne almost lose control and kill Evangeline?
And we have no idea what the future holds for Evangeline.

To be fair though, Wynne was a bit desperate to save Rhys, no matter the consequences. She perceived Evangeline as being an obstacle to saving Rhys.

I was wrong about Wynne.
Wynne was going to murder Evangeline because she was protecting Cole when Wynne was trying to kill him. Evangeline broke Wynne's special staff and Wynne was channeling mana to finish her off when Cole put a knife at her throat.
 
Wynne seemed to be in control even though her eyes were blood red etc. But yeah, it had nothing to do with saving Rhys. She wanted to kill Cole and Evangeline was still being stupid and was about to go the way of Ser Thrask.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 05 novembre 2013 - 06:10 .

[Hellion Rex]

hhh89 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

To be fair though, Wynne was a bit desperate to save Rhys, no matter the consequences. She perceived Evangeline as being an obstacle to saving Rhys.

So, was it Wynne's decision or was she controlled/influenced by Faith?
Regardless, I think spirit/human bonding is troublesome and dangerous. People should stay away with this, or a least not jumping on it with no knowledge of the matter like Anders did<_<).

Well yeah, Anders was pretty dumb in that regard. But I am not sure if Faith was really the cause of the outburst against Evangeline, or if Wynne was just really pissed off and scared for Rhys. If it was Faith, then it is strange since this is the first time it has been seen to be slightly affected by Wynne's emotions.

[The Elder King]

About the templars's role in a reformed Circle hyphothesis, I think that the best option would be to have the new Circle's wardens being part of a third, neutral organization, not under the mages of the Chantry. The Inquisition would fit nicely in the role.

[Hellion Rex]

Hazegurl wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Wynne and Evangeline say hello. 

Um didn't Wynne almost lose control and kill Evangeline?
And we have no idea what the future holds for Evangeline.

To be fair though, Wynne was a bit desperate to save Rhys, no matter the consequences. She perceived Evangeline as being an obstacle to saving Rhys.

 I don't see how it's unfair to point out the simple fact that Wynne couldn't distinguish friend from foe while possessed. Evangeline almost got the Ser Thrask treatment for being a moron.

Well Evangeline was a bit stupid, but also remember that Evangeline mentioned that the staff Wynne had started to carry was emitting some dark vibes as well.

[Hellion Rex]

hhh89 wrote...

About the templars's role in a reformed Circle hyphothesis, I think that the best option would be to have the new Circle's wardens being part of a third, neutral organization, not under the mages of the Chantry. The Inquisition would fit nicely in the role.

Hey that works too. I would not mind having the Inquisition fulfill that role.

[Reznore57]

Well things weren't perfect between Gregoir and Irving.
One time during the mage origin , I tried to warn Irving about Jowan escape, thinking maybe the dude could do something about it.
He said something like "I know what Jowan is up to , but since a Chantry sister will be caught too , and this makes me happy .I won't do anything .Lalala."

My jaw sort of drop on the floor ...

[The Elder King]

eluvianix wrote...

Well yeah, Anders was pretty dumb in that regard. But I am not sure if Faith was really the cause of the outburst against Evangeline, or if Wynne was just really pissed off and scared for Rhys. If it was Faith, then it is strange since this is the first time it has been seen to be slightly affected by Wynne's emotions.

It's not like every time Anders was enraged he lost control or was affected by Justice. Plus, Wynne is probably better at handling emotions than Anders, and Justice might be more difficult to control than Faith. All this factors combined might be the reason why she lost control  only in Asunder, where her son was in danger of death. Though as I haven't read the books, I can't say for certain what happened.