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[TheKomandorShepard]

Some solutions on circle problem are painfully naive...

[Hellion Rex]

hhh89 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Well yeah, Anders was pretty dumb in that regard. But I am not sure if Faith was really the cause of the outburst against Evangeline, or if Wynne was just really pissed off and scared for Rhys. If it was Faith, then it is strange since this is the first time it has been seen to be slightly affected by Wynne's emotions.

It's not like every time Anders was enraged he lost control or was affected by Justice. Plus, Wynne is probably better at handling emotions than Anders, and Justice might be more difficult to control than Faith. All this factors combined might be the reason why she lost control  only in Asunder, where her son was in danger of death. Though as I haven't read the books, I can't say for certain what happened.

Yeah, it is a little ambiguous, but at the same time, she had recently acquired a new, stronger staff that Evangeline described as feeling dark. 

BTW, you totally need to read the book. I liked Asunder a lot. 

[Hellion Rex]

Reznore57 wrote...

Well things weren't perfect between Gregoir and Irving.
One time during the mage origin , I tried to warn Irving about Jowan escape, thinking maybe the dude could do something about it.
He said something like "I know what Jowan is up to , but since a Chantry sister will be caught too , and this makes me happy .I won't do anything .Lalala."

My jaw sort of drop on the floor ...

You bring up a good point.

[Hellion Rex]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Some solutions on circle problem are painfully naive...

That is a matter of personal perception of what is "naive".

[The Elder King]

Reznore57 wrote...

Well things weren't perfect between Gregoir and Irving.
One time during the mage origin , I tried to warn Irving about Jowan escape, thinking maybe the dude could do something about it.
He said something like "I know what Jowan is up to , but since a Chantry sister will be caught too , and this makes me happy .I won't do anything .Lalala."

My jaw sort of drop on the floor ...

Not exactly. Irwing said that if Jowan had to pay for the crimes he did, than the sister had to pay for her crimes too (putting aside their relationship, she was helping a blood mage to escape, which is against Chantry's laws, her own organization).

[TheKomandorShepard]

eluvianix wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Some solutions on circle problem are painfully naive...

That is a matter of personal perception of what is "naive".

Nope that mater of reality what is naive it is like creating utopia in witcher universe that is naive besides that what you are propose are orginal ideals of circle that didn't handle match with reality.

[Reznore57]

hhh89 wrote...

Not exactly. Irwing said that if Jowan had to pay for the crimes he did, than the sister had to pay for her crimes too (putting aside their relationship, she was helping a blood mage to escape, which is against Chantry's laws, her own organization).

Yeah .But he also pushed your pc to help those two morons ,because he's happy both will get caught.
That's a bit...cold.
The sister thought she was helping a mage who was about to be made tranquil.And she loved the imbecile.

Modifié par Reznore57, 05 novembre 2013 - 06:14 .

[Hazegurl]

eluvianix wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Wynne and Evangeline say hello. 

Um didn't Wynne almost lose control and kill Evangeline?
And we have no idea what the future holds for Evangeline.

To be fair though, Wynne was a bit desperate to save Rhys, no matter the consequences. She perceived Evangeline as being an obstacle to saving Rhys.

 I don't see how it's unfair to point out the simple fact that Wynne couldn't distinguish friend from foe while possessed. Evangeline almost got the Ser Thrask treatment for being a moron.

Well Evangeline was a bit stupid, but also remember that Evangeline mentioned that the staff Wynne had started to carry was emitting some dark vibes as well.

Yeah I had to edit my post above. Evangeline was being stupid. She knew something was wrong with that staff, so much so that she wanted to run away from it but she still stayed with Wynne. She also knew that the Templars were right about Mages turning to forbidden magic whenever they find themselves backed into a corner. Of course she then excused it by claiming it were the Templars fault. Totally ignoring her own instincts. She then jumped in front of Cole to protect him. Big mistake.

However, Wynne was becoming more and more possessed to the point where her eyes were red and she was going to flat out murder Evangeline even while the staff was broken.

[The Elder King]

@Reznore: he needed proof that they were breaking the law, otherwise the templars would've punished Jowan and let her go. Which is wrong.
It's true that Lily didn't believe that Jowan was a blood mage, but she was still helping him steal his phylactery and escape, which is still against the Chantry's law. I'm not debating if this if right or wrong, but Irwing's point in catching them breaking the law. It's not right that a mage should be punished (expecially when the punishment is something as horrible as Tranquilization) without proof (as Jowan was supposed to) and a Chantry sister no (since Irwing knew that she was aiding Jowan but the templars wouldn't have believed him).

Modifié par hhh89, 05 novembre 2013 - 06:25 .

[Hellion Rex]

Hazegurl wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Wynne and Evangeline say hello. 

Um didn't Wynne almost lose control and kill Evangeline?
And we have no idea what the future holds for Evangeline.

To be fair though, Wynne was a bit desperate to save Rhys, no matter the consequences. She perceived Evangeline as being an obstacle to saving Rhys.

 I don't see how it's unfair to point out the simple fact that Wynne couldn't distinguish friend from foe while possessed. Evangeline almost got the Ser Thrask treatment for being a moron.

Well Evangeline was a bit stupid, but also remember that Evangeline mentioned that the staff Wynne had started to carry was emitting some dark vibes as well.

Yeah I had to edit my post above. Evangeline was being stupid. She knew something was wrong with that staff, so much so that she wanted to run away from it but she still stayed with Wynne. She also knew that the Templars were right about Mages turning to forbidden magic whenever they find themselves backed into a corner. Of course she then excused it by claiming it were the Templars fault. Totally ignoring her own instincts. She then jumped in front of Cole to protect him. Big mistake.

However, Wynne was becoming more and more possessed to the point where her eyes were red and she was going to flat out murder Evangeline even while the staff was broken.

That is true. Perhaps the staff had somehow affected Faith? Or at the very least, it influenced Wynne heavily.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lord Raijin wrote...
For as long as the Circle mages are treated like prisoners of the Chantry mages turning to blood magic and turning into an abomination is bound to happen. If their wern't any templars around mages like Ulderd and Jowan would not have done what they've did out of desperation. Anders wouldn't be such a troublesome either.

Yes, because that is clearly the ONLY reason why a mage might want to use blood magic.
Certanly....
Most defiantely...
Yep.

Let me ask you something and be honest with me. If you were a mage and I was your templar jailer. Would you like being treated like a prisoner without a conviction of a crime? Would you enjoy my Co-workers and I staring at every move that you make?

Absolutely not.
But not because you would be a templar, but because you would be - you.

How would you feel if my Co-workers and myself were treating you like a child instead of an adult? Lets pretend that I had a templar menality like Ser Alrik. I came across you and I found you very attractive. I wanted to turn you into one of my sex slaves, and so I use an excuse to have you get scheduled for the Rite of Tranquality despite your passing of your Harrowing. What would happen if you found out that you were scheduled for the Rite? Would you just stand around and do nothing, or would you do some serious planning and escape from the Circle at all cost?

Yeah, you can try to use the "abuse" angle all you want, but it doens't make the Circles or the templars unnecessary.
There is also a limit to just how many changes or reforms you can make.
A balance between freedom and security.... efficency and restriction, etc.. and you'll NEVER make everyone happy. There will ALWAYS be unhappy mages.. in ANY system you can think off.

[Hazegurl]

True, they were unhappy even when they did have freedom. It seems like they want zero restrictions placed on them. Next they'll want total freedom AND the same luxury lifestyle (food, education, free housing) as they did in the Circles.

[dragonflight288]

Playing catch up (again) here, and I haven't really read everything that's been posted these past two days, so I'm starting from scratch here.

But from what I can tell, the gist of the current conversation is whether or not Circles keep abominations from happening, or the risk of some mages becoming abominations acts as justification for putting every mage in a circle.

For me, it's pretty simple. All mages must learn to control their powers, so going into a Circle or some form of monitored apprenticeship is mandatory for anyone identified as a mage.

But I have never seen any evidence that suggests that the Circle's are effective at preventing blood mages and abominations. Actually, I have found in the games/books that the opposite is more often true, that the emotional abuse and oppression mages go through in the system is one of the leading causes of abominations and blood mages.

For those who say that the actions of some justify treating all the same, I call for evidence the proves that the Circles are effective are preventing abominations and blood magic in the first place.

[HiroVoid]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Playing catch up (again) here, and I haven't really read everything that's been posted these past two days, so I'm starting from scratch here.

But from what I can tell, the gist of the current conversation is whether or not Circles keep abominations from happening, or the risk of some mages becoming abominations acts as justification for putting every mage in a circle.

For me, it's pretty simple. All mages must learn to control their powers, so going into a Circle or some form of monitored apprenticeship is mandatory for anyone identified as a mage.

But I have never seen any evidence that suggests that the Circle's are effective at preventing blood mages and abominations. Actually, I have found in the games/books that the opposite is more often true, that the emotional abuse and oppression mages go through in the system is one of the leading causes of abominations and blood mages.

For those who say that the actions of some justify treating all the same, I call for evidence the proves that the Circles are effective are preventing abominations and blood magic in the first place.

Well, I found less blood mages in the Circle than I did in basically every other area in Dragon Age: Origins where it was blood magic from just about every mage.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 05 novembre 2013 - 08:43 .

[Schneidend]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Playing catch up (again) here, and I haven't really read everything that's been posted these past two days, so I'm starting from scratch here.

But from what I can tell, the gist of the current conversation is whether or not Circles keep abominations from happening, or the risk of some mages becoming abominations acts as justification for putting every mage in a circle.

For me, it's pretty simple. All mages must learn to control their powers, so going into a Circle or some form of monitored apprenticeship is mandatory for anyone identified as a mage.

But I have never seen any evidence that suggests that the Circle's are effective at preventing blood mages and abominations. Actually, I have found in the games/books that the opposite is more often true, that the emotional abuse and oppression mages go through in the system is one of the leading causes of abominations and blood mages.

For those who say that the actions of some justify treating all the same, I call for evidence the proves that the Circles are effective are preventing abominations and blood magic in the first place.

If nothing else, the Circle keeps a majority of mages in close proximity to the people trained to kill them if they turn into abominations or otherwise misuse their powers.

[Sundance31us]

Not to be a nudge, but blood magic isn't restricted to mages...warriors can become Reavers if they wish.

Also demons seem quite capable of possessing/inhabiting non-mages (including tranquil), so this idea that ppl are safe because the mages are locked up is....unwise.

[Hellion Rex]

Sundance31us wrote...

Not to be a nudge, but blood magic isn't restricted to mages...warriors can become Reavers if they wish.

Also demons seem quite capable of possessing/inhabiting non-mages (including tranquil), so this idea that ppl are safe because the mages are locked up is....unwise.

But the blood magic of Reavers seems to be merely be an internal version, using their own pain and suffering to raise their strength. It is not the same as a full blown maleficar.

[Xilizhra]

Because you can't detect who is possesed and who isn't?
A smart abomination can easily hide.

Use a spell to analyze their blood; they can be detected that way. Or just hitting them.

[The Elder King]

Sundance31us wrote...

Not to be a nudge, but blood magic isn't restricted to mages...warriors can become Reavers if they wish.

Also demons seem quite capable of possessing/inhabiting non-mages (including tranquil), so this idea that ppl are safe because the mages are locked up is....unwise.

Reavers aren't blood mages. Reavers can't control the mind of people of fuel their power with the blood of other people (which makes blood magic stronger if you do it with violence). And non-mages can't be possessed if a mage (or an abomination) force the demon into the person. Mages can be possessed anytime, due to the different connection with the Fade. 
Though you're right that people aren't entirely safe from demons or other magical threats if mages are locked up. The point of the pro-templars is that locking up mages make people safer, not completely safe.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Because you can't detect who is possesed and who isn't?
A smart abomination can easily hide.

Use a spell to analyze their blood; they can be detected that way. Or just hitting them.

But that would be blood magic, no? 
But on a more serious note, could a spell be cast on a mage's phylactery to determine if a mage is demon free?

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Because you can't detect who is possesed and who isn't?
A smart abomination can easily hide.

Use a spell to analyze their blood; they can be detected that way. Or just hitting them.

But that would be blood magic, no? 
But on a more serious note, could a spell be cast on a mage's phylactery to determine if a mage is demon free?

Maybe? Merrill examined Kerran's blood and was able to determine he was demon free. But the blood for a phylactery is taken upon entering the Circle. It's entirely possible that you would be able to determine they were demon free at the time the blood was taken, but not beyond it.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Because you can't detect who is possesed and who isn't?
A smart abomination can easily hide.

Use a spell to analyze their blood; they can be detected that way. Or just hitting them.

But that would be blood magic, no? 
But on a more serious note, could a spell be cast on a mage's phylactery to determine if a mage is demon free?

Maybe? Merrill examined Kerran's blood and was able to determine he was demon free. But the blood for a phylactery is taken upon entering the Circle. It's entirely possible that you would be able to determine they were demon free at the time the blood was taken, but not beyond it.

Merril was using blood magic though. I doubt the Templars would advocate that approach.

[Hellion Rex]

hhh89 wrote...

Sundance31us wrote...

Not to be a nudge, but blood magic isn't restricted to mages...warriors can become Reavers if they wish.

Also demons seem quite capable of possessing/inhabiting non-mages (including tranquil), so this idea that ppl are safe because the mages are locked up is....unwise.

Reavers aren't blood mages. Reavers can't control the mind of people of fuel their power with the blood of other people (which makes blood magic stronger if you do it with violence). And non-mages can't be possessed if a mage (or an abomination) force the demon into the person. Mages can be possessed anytime, due to the different connection with the Fade. 
Though you're right that people aren't entirely safe from demons or other magical threats if mages are locked up. The point of the pro-templars is that locking up mages make people safer, not completely safe.

Um, you do remember that a pride demon possessed a non mage ruler in the Free Marches. And as far as we know, there was no mage involved in that possession.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Because you can't detect who is possesed and who isn't?
A smart abomination can easily hide.

Use a spell to analyze their blood; they can be detected that way. Or just hitting them.

But that would be blood magic, no? 
But on a more serious note, could a spell be cast on a mage's phylactery to determine if a mage is demon free?

Maybe? Merrill examined Kerran's blood and was able to determine he was demon free. But the blood for a phylactery is taken upon entering the Circle. It's entirely possible that you would be able to determine they were demon free at the time the blood was taken, but not beyond it.

Merril was using blood magic though. I doubt the Templars would advocate that approach.

Was she? I didn't see her slit her wrist. She bent down and examined some of Kerren's blood that was on the ground.

I suppose technically, under the Chantry's definition of blood magic, she did use blood magic because she examined his blood. But she didn't really cast any spells or do any magic, so it's kind of hard to say if she used blood magic or simply her knowledge of blood magic and demons.

[dragonflight288]

Well, I found less blood mages in the Circle than I did in basically every other area in Dragon Age: Origins where it was blood magic from just about every mage.

Oh? I found the exact opposite is true in Ferelden playing as the Warden.