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[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

I see you havn't given up on headcanoning the Red Templars and their role yet.....

i have my suspicions about the red templars. which you should have as well instead blindly proclaiming them to be just faction. but you cannot deny that templars have a leash and the one that holds their leash ultimately decides what the templars are.

Oh I have no doubt that they are not just a faction but straight up enemies. I am however, not about to make some uninformed statement that they are absolutely goign to be like "this" or "that". All we know is that they are called Red Templars (presumably because they consume Red Lyrium), and that they are enemies of the Inquisition.

And no, I wouldn't say that Templars have a leash, as much as a liability. The Templars have been able to do pretty much what they thought was best for the Circle for the better part of a millenium. It doesn't seem like the Lyrium has ever been more than a neusance for them.
A case could be amde that now they've left the Chantry, Lyrium might end up harder to come by. But then again, another case could be amde that now they've left, the Chantry doesn't hold the means to enforce their monopoly anymore.

If you wish to believe that the templars are uncorruptable be my guest . you are going to be proven wrong. But from my point view the mages are needed to close the fade tears. and if the templars get in the way they die.

[Warden661]

Lord Raijin wrote...


Templars ant-mage ability is not a genuine skill as it's required to inject Lyrium to obtain the ability thats why their powers is false. It's a performance enhancing drug is what it is, and in all major sporting events it's highly illegal because it's considered cheating. People can ruin their careers by cheating.

Hold up, you're saying that the Templars use of lyrium is wrong..... because it's a performance enhancing drug and performance enhancing drugs are illegal in our real world sports? Therefore Templars are cheating. So the bases of your arguements are that the Templars are wrong because the Templars cheat?

This is laughable.

Is lyrium a performance enhancing drug? Sure, i'll concede that point but this isn't baseball. It's not even close. It's not mages vs. templars trying to win the world series. Templars take lyrium so they can combat magic. It's not cheating, it's using the resources they have able to them in order to protect themselves and others. And before you get into "well mages use blood magic in order to protect themselves from the big bad templars so they're just using the menas they have available to them", know that using lyrium in the way that templars do doesn't tear holes in veil like blood magic does.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Or court-marshal the templars who killed the con-artist pretending to heal people based on suspicion alone, no evidence required and no punishments given to those who did so.

What are you talking about?

He is referencing a con-artist that is mentioned in the description of a staff in Awakening. D'simms was a despicable man that conned sick and dying peasant for what little they possessed, by posing as a mage that could cure their illness. The Templars executed him.
In my book the Templars did the world a favor, and I am not certain why anyone would defend D'simms...

Dsimms was an assss. But he should have been excuted for the right reasons. Right now your precious little templars seem to be nothing more then lose cannons.

[Shadow Fox]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Why? Why are any of the things you mentioned "right"?

Because they are not aspects of corrupt behavior, they do not take advantage of other people, victimize anyone, nor do such behaviors leave any room whatsoever for abuse of power.

In one hand you claim respecting the orders of your superiors is right but then, in the other hand, you claim that disobeying them is "right". Therefore, you leave it up to personal criteria whether an order is right or wrong.

Not quite what I meant. Following the orders of your superior is all well and good, but if you're given an order that harms innocent people, it is your duty to relieve them of command. Armies have those kinds of fail-safes.

If failing that, the Chantry should have the authority and power to court-marshal any Seeker or Templar, which Lambert definitely needed to be for his order to Evangeline to murder anyone who has evidence that Tranquility is curable. Or court-marshal the templars who killed the con-artist pretending to heal people based on suspicion alone, no evidence required and no punishments given to those who did so.

Why are Lambert's actions of preventing a war less right than Evangeline's action of enabling one?

Evangeline didn't initiate the attack, didn't kill a single mage who was not-guilty of any crimes, and defended them. Her actions could easily show the mages that there are templars you can work with comfortably and can be trusted. And if one is like this, surely there must be others.

Lambert's actions only gave weight to the argument that it doesn't matter what the Circle's do, they can still be slaughtered at the drop of a hat based on the templars/seeker's opinions and prejudices, and the Chantry is powerless to stop completely unnecessary and unjustified slaughter.

Ultimately in the end though, the Circle's didn't declare war. The templars, however, at the end of Asunder, did. Lambert didn't try to prevent the war, he helped start it. Evangeline's actions can be symbolic that peace with the templars and the Chantry is not impossible if a change in leadership is acquired.

Is there not more righteousness into allowing the death of a dozen than in saving them and thus causing the deaths of thousands? Does the supposed innocence of these mages make their lives more important than that of everyone else in Thedas?

The death of a single innocent is a tragedy, and one that deserves justice. If the templars are allowed to kill a dozen innocents for the sake of getting the one or two who are actually guilty to prevent the deaths of dozens or hundreds of others, then the deaths of those innocents are still not justified as they are not guilty of the crimes, and if those who committed such an act remain unpunished, then there actions cannot be called justice, or right. It would be murder. Sanctioned murder, but murder nonetheless.

Is standing up for one's morals more important than the lives of people? Did Lambert also not simply stand up for what he believed in? Why are his morals less righteous than Evangeline's?

Standing up for the right thing continually is one of the most important things anyone can do. Lambert may have done what he believed in, but by doing so, he himself committed the crimes of treason and murder. Nearly every single innocent in Asunder killed was done on his orders, and that simply cannot be justified, and so he is in the wrong for those actions. Evangeline, however, never acted without evidence and went out of her way to protect the innocents of the crimes all mages were accused of, despite only a few of them actually propagating Independence.

Pretty much my thoughts.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

I would argue that mages are just as guilty of using lyrium as templars to help them boost their magic reserves and power. So pretty much both mages and templars are cheaters, going by raijin's definition.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Ironic isn't it? That the man so concerned with power corrupting his friends back in tevinter, allowed the power of his own station to corrupt and consume him to the point that he was willing to break any law, disobey any order, and disregard any need for compromise that stood in his way, if it meant he could have what he considered security.

Lambert and the black divine really are very similar to one another, it's no wonder they used to be close friends.

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 06 novembre 2013 - 11:43 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

If you wish to believe that the templars are uncorruptable be my guest . you are going to be proven wrong. But from my point view the mages are needed to close the fade tears. and if the templars get in the way they die.

I am not saying that the Templars are incorruptable. I am saying taht I am not willing, contrary to you, to make some **** statement that ALL Templars are now Red Templars, or that the Red Templars are demon worshippers. And my unwillingness to do so, stems simply from the fact that WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THEM! Is that really so hard to get for you?

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Or court-marshal the templars who killed the con-artist pretending to heal people based on suspicion alone, no evidence required and no punishments given to those who did so.

What are you talking about?

He is referencing a con-artist that is mentioned in the description of a staff in Awakening. D'simms was a despicable man that conned sick and dying peasant for what little they possessed, by posing as a mage that could cure their illness. The Templars executed him.
In my book the Templars did the world a favor, and I am not certain why anyone would defend D'simms...

More defending the process, then the man.

Let's say a hypothetical where instead of someone telling on d'simm, d'simm called the templars on someone innocent who, let's just say, threatened to expose him as a con.

The templars would take d'simms word that he was telling the truth, go to the other guy, and kill them. No questions asked. No trail, no due process.

That is the same exact thing, and just because d'simm happened to be guilty, doesn't mean the next person who gets reported to that templar is guilty.

That's the entire reason there are constant trails in the united states and questioned raised about warrents, due process, reasonable suspicion, totality of evidence, and all manner of what determines a persons guilt and what counts as a violation of rights. Not even mentioning that this was something the city guard should probably have handled.

Of course with this being the middle ages to rennisance period, we're lucky that warrentless murder is all that occured.

We don't know how it went down. But I am glad to see that ALL pro-mages instantly think that the Templars did it just to be mustache twirlingly evil.....

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

That is not exactly how it happened though...

The mages gathered with permission from the Divine to discuss the fact that tranquility was now curable, Lambert pretty much through a temper tantrum earlier because the Divine pretty much ignored him over the word of Evangeline, who was there. At the meeting, Fiona tries hijacking it to force a vote on the Circle's declaring Independence, Wynne tries talking everyone else down, Lambert bursts in and orders the meeting closed and all the Enchanters sent back to their towers because Pharamond was murdered and the knife was found in Rhys' room.

Fiona says they have authority from the Divine to be there and they will judge Rhys themselves. Lambert states that the Divine's authority no longer matters and ordered the attack.....

That's exactly what happened.

No.
Lambert interrupts the meeting and declares taht what the amges are discussing is treason, he therefore orders them all confined to their quarters. Furthermore he accuses Rhys of the murder of Pharamond since the murder weapon was found in Rhys quarters. He orders the mages to hand over Rhys, and when the mages refuse, he then decide to take Rhys by force. This leads to an accidental mage death, which then spurs the entire crowd, mage and Templar, into fighting. That is exactly what happened. Still the very first thing that Lambert says, is that the mages are commiting a treasonous act by even discussing rebellion.

They wouldn't have been guilty of treason from the Chantry unless a vote actually took place and they voted for it. Lambert interrupted before a single vote had been cast, and bypassed the Divine entirely.

I don't care about the reasoning and the semantics. All I care about is a series of event that you didn't acurately pass on.

Fair enough. I simply mentioned the parts that stood out in my memory.

Thanks for calling me out on it though, I honestly forgot he said that in lieu of everything else that happened.

EDIT: In the end though, many of them were killed for something that hadn't happened as there was never a vote.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 07 novembre 2013 - 12:02 .

[dragonflight288]

We don't know how it went down. But I am glad to see that ALL pro-mages instantly think that the Templars did it just to be mustache twirlingly evil.....

If you have evidence that says they acted with due process, going to the magistrate/city guard or used their templar abilities to sense magic (Ser Bryant and Ser Otto both exercise this, Ser Bryant mentions he'd be a poor templar if he couldn't tell the Warden is a mage,) as a way for proof, feel free to show it to us.

I genuinely would love to be proven wrong and to get more examples of good templars who follow the law. And technically, if they followed the law in the first place, they should've taken D'simms to a Circle, not kill him out of hand out of suspicion.

[Hazegurl]

Speaking more on the events of Asunder, I don't get why some mage supporters claim that the Templars are committing treason by separating themselves from the Chantry yet will say that the Mages have a right to walk away from the Chantry.

Both the Mages and the Templars were not originally a part of the Chantry. All Lambert did was dissolve the Nevarran Accord once it became obvious that the two parties could not work together anymore.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Fair enough. I simply mentioned the parts that stood out in my memory.

Thanks for calling me out on it though, I honestly forgot he said that in lieu of everything else that happened.

EDIT: In the end though, many of them were killed for something that hadn't happened as there was never a vote.

**** does indeed happen. But it was never the intention of Lambert to cause any casualties during this incident. The accidental death of a mage caused it all to go FUBAR. As I've said repeatedly now, it is simply impossible to pin the blame on any one person or faction. They were all exacerbating the situation.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

We don't know how it went down. But I am glad to see that ALL pro-mages instantly think that the Templars did it just to be mustache twirlingly evil.....

If you have evidence that says they acted with due process, going to the magistrate/city guard or used their templar abilities to sense magic (Ser Bryant and Ser Otto both exercise this, Ser Bryant mentions he'd be a poor templar if he couldn't tell the Warden is a mage,) as a way for proof, feel free to show it to us.

I genuinely would love to be proven wrong and to get more examples of good templars who follow the law. And technically, if they followed the law in the first place, they should've taken D'simms to a Circle, not kill him out of hand out of suspicion.

We don't know how it went down. I don't know why that somehow means that I think the Templars did it to be paragons of good...........................

ALL we know is that D'simms was a despicable man, who abused the sick and the dying for his own gain, and that the Templars executed him. Take from that what you will.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Or court-marshal the templars who killed the con-artist pretending to heal people based on suspicion alone, no evidence required and no punishments given to those who did so.

What are you talking about?

He is referencing a con-artist that is mentioned in the description of a staff in Awakening. D'simms was a despicable man that conned sick and dying peasant for what little they possessed, by posing as a mage that could cure their illness. The Templars executed him.
In my book the Templars did the world a favor, and I am not certain why anyone would defend D'simms...

More defending the process, then the man.

Let's say a hypothetical where instead of someone telling on d'simm, d'simm called the templars on someone innocent who, let's just say, threatened to expose him as a con.

The templars would take d'simms word that he was telling the truth, go to the other guy, and kill them. No questions asked. No trail, no due process.

That is the same exact thing, and just because d'simm happened to be guilty, doesn't mean the next person who gets reported to that templar is guilty.

That's the entire reason there are constant trails in the united states and questioned raised about warrents, due process, reasonable suspicion, totality of evidence, and all manner of what determines a persons guilt and what counts as a violation of rights. Not even mentioning that this was something the city guard should probably have handled.

Of course with this being the middle ages to rennisance period, we're lucky that warrentless murder is all that occured.

We don't know how it went down. But I am glad to see that ALL pro-mages instantly think that the Templars did it just to be mustache twirlingly evil.....

Evil villiany ain't got nothing to do with this one. It's just good old ichy sword hands and everyone looking the other way at the time.

Also, I'm not pro-anything but peaceful resolution. Anders is a douche, and lambert is a ******, and don't even get me started on ****es like petrice or adrian.

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 07 novembre 2013 - 12:11 .

[Hazegurl]

Patrice wasn't that bad. She recognized the Qunari threat and wanted to quash it...okay a lot of it was fueled by her own prejudices. But she wasn't wrong about the danger they posed to the city. I hated that my Hawke had to be a stern personality type to side with her.

[Dave of Canada]

Hazegurl wrote...

Patrice wasn't that bad. She recognized the Qunari threat and wanted to quash it...okay a lot of it was fueled by her own prejudices. But she wasn't wrong about the danger they posed to the city. I hated that my Hawke had to be a stern personality type to side with her.

Yeah, the choice to see Qunari as a threat and working with Petrice being aggressive-only wasn't exactly the best.

[Hellion Rex]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Or court-marshal the templars who killed the con-artist pretending to heal people based on suspicion alone, no evidence required and no punishments given to those who did so.

What are you talking about?

He is referencing a con-artist that is mentioned in the description of a staff in Awakening. D'simms was a despicable man that conned sick and dying peasant for what little they possessed, by posing as a mage that could cure their illness. The Templars executed him.
In my book the Templars did the world a favor, and I am not certain why anyone would defend D'simms...

More defending the process, then the man.

Let's say a hypothetical where instead of someone telling on d'simm, d'simm called the templars on someone innocent who, let's just say, threatened to expose him as a con.

The templars would take d'simms word that he was telling the truth, go to the other guy, and kill them. No questions asked. No trail, no due process.

That is the same exact thing, and just because d'simm happened to be guilty, doesn't mean the next person who gets reported to that templar is guilty.

That's the entire reason there are constant trails in the united states and questioned raised about warrents, due process, reasonable suspicion, totality of evidence, and all manner of what determines a persons guilt and what counts as a violation of rights. Not even mentioning that this was something the city guard should probably have handled.

Of course with this being the middle ages to rennisance period, we're lucky that warrentless murder is all that occured.

We don't know how it went down. But I am glad to see that ALL pro-mages instantly think that the Templars did it just to be mustache twirlingly evil.....

Evil villiany ain't got nothing to do with this one. It's just good old ichy sword hands and everyone looking the other way at the time.

Also, I'm not pro-anything but peaceful resolution. Anders is a douche, and lambert is a ******, and don't even get me started on ****es like petrice or adrian.

Lord help me, I would resort to blood magic to raise Petrice's corspe, just so I can kill her myself.

[Lord Raijin]

Hazegurl wrote...

And mages are weak for having to rely on blood magic and demons for their false and temporary powers. Oh and if they were so strong they wouldn't be "imprisoned" to begin with.

You learn blood magic by making deals with demons. You don't learn blood magic to taking a drug. This is a fail at best. What do you mean when you say "imprisoned"?  I don't follow you.
 

ell that to the mages partying it up during their yearly meeting instead of doing anything to improve the condition of the mages under their leadership. It's not just Templars that allowed the Circle to be run the way it was.

No matter how many meeting the Senior Enchanters to First Enchanters things will not change unless if the Chantry allows it.

Anders was a bit more reasonable in DA awakening when he says that mages couldn't just walk away from the Circle. He was right then. Makes me wonder if your quote belongs more to Justice than to him.

I am a big fan of Justice, both in DAO: A and in DA2. I am hoping that we get to see him yet again in DAI. He at least acknowledges the injustice that mages goes through under Chantry rulings.

Oh yeah and my Hawke is the hero of Kirkwall not mages so my guy is always the number one protagonist of the story.

Hawke is so overated.

[Lord Raijin]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

LOLandStuff wrote...
So how does Uldred being a Libertarian excuse him from trying to put demons into people and trying to kill you? Oh wait, right...Templars and Chantry opression. Nor the Chantry or the Templars intervened between the mages. You can't even accept that there are bad mages and keep coming up with the dumbest excuses.
Besides, if you trust a man who let his king die because of paranoia then you're a moron and deserve what you get.

People do things that are completely abnormal when it comes to desperation, even entrusting of someone that gives them false hope and security. I've tried so hard to be pro-Templar and pro-chantry, but I notice that with each gameplay from both games: DAO and DA2 I see and hear things that I didn't even heard of from my previous games. Yes no matter how you view things the Chantries oppression is a large part of the problem at why mages fight back with any available skill that they know of. Call it excuses all you like but if you were in the same position as the mages I would be certain you would join the same bandwagon as the rest of the mages.

You keep using that word oppression, but then only cite fanatics as people who actually claim it? Do you have anyone that is not you or fanatic that acutally screams about oppression? And the appearance of said fanatics from laws does not excuse their actions. Have you noticed that such people spring up even in this country? Are they excused from the mass killings that they do, simply becasue of "oppression?" 

Mages can be raped without any consequences to the raper, they can be beaten for simply talking to civilians, they are denied the right to leave or visit families, their children are taken from their arms almost immediately after the birth of said childrn, and are called weapons and cannot be treated as people.

....I call that oppression. Alongside mental and emotional abuse.

Mages are not allowed to speak to civilians, and if they get caught doing it, they get lashes.



And people wonder why mages do bad things.

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

LOLandStuff wrote...
So how does Uldred being a Libertarian excuse him from trying to put demons into people and trying to kill you? Oh wait, right...Templars and Chantry opression. Nor the Chantry or the Templars intervened between the mages. You can't even accept that there are bad mages and keep coming up with the dumbest excuses.
Besides, if you trust a man who let his king die because of paranoia then you're a moron and deserve what you get.

People do things that are completely abnormal when it comes to desperation, even entrusting of someone that gives them false hope and security. I've tried so hard to be pro-Templar and pro-chantry, but I notice that with each gameplay from both games: DAO and DA2 I see and hear things that I didn't even heard of from my previous games. Yes no matter how you view things the Chantries oppression is a large part of the problem at why mages fight back with any available skill that they know of. Call it excuses all you like but if you were in the same position as the mages I would be certain you would join the same bandwagon as the rest of the mages.

You keep using that word oppression, but then only cite fanatics as people who actually claim it? Do you have anyone that is not you or fanatic that acutally screams about oppression? And the appearance of said fanatics from laws does not excuse their actions. Have you noticed that such people spring up even in this country? Are they excused from the mass killings that they do, simply becasue of "oppression?" 

Mages can be raped without any consequences to the raper, they can be beaten for simply talking to civilians, they are denied the right to leave or visit families, their children are taken from their arms almost immediately after the birth of said childrn, and are called weapons and cannot be treated as people.

....I call that oppression. Alongside mental and emotional abuse.

Mages are not allowed to speak to civilians, and if they get caught doing it, they get lashes.



And people wonder why mages do bad things.

I can understand their pain, their desperation, but that still does not make it right, on either side.

Modifié par eluvianix, 07 novembre 2013 - 12:55 .

[Lord Raijin]

Schneidend wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

A templar cannot be a good templar if they're anti-mages, and unfortunetly theirs a lot of them around, which contributes to the failing system.

Probably the first reasonable thing you've ever said. Templars need to be unbiased in regards to how they police mages. Unless a mage is being belligerent or possessed, the relationship between mage and Templar should be tolerable, if not amicable.

I actually agree to your statement. I also believe that Mages should fallow the same rule that way both parties can get a long.



"I feel that it is important for both Mages and Templars to co-exist with each other. When a Templar struggles during battle Mages are obligated to give a helping hand to his fellow man. It is the Makers will to do so. It is also the duty of the Templars to aid a struggling mage, and to protect them from dangers that awaits them."

This is my motto and I will always stick by it.

[Lord Raijin]

BoBear wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...


Templars ant-mage ability is not a genuine skill as it's required to inject Lyrium to obtain the ability thats why their powers is false. It's a performance enhancing drug is what it is, and in all major sporting events it's highly illegal because it's considered cheating. People can ruin their careers by cheating.

Hold up, you're saying that the Templars use of lyrium is wrong..... because it's a performance enhancing drug and performance enhancing drugs are illegal in our real world sports? Therefore Templars are cheating. So the bases of your arguements are that the Templars are wrong because the Templars cheat?

This is laughable.

Is lyrium a performance enhancing drug? Sure, i'll concede that point but this isn't baseball. It's not even close. It's not mages vs. templars trying to win the world series. Templars take lyrium so they can combat magic. It's not cheating, it's using the resources they have able to them in order to protect themselves and others. And before you get into "well mages use blood magic in order to protect themselves from the big bad templars so they're just using the menas they have available to them", know that using lyrium in the way that templars do doesn't tear holes in veil like blood magic does.

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

A templar cannot be a good templar if they're anti-mages, and unfortunetly theirs a lot of them around, which contributes to the failing system.

Probably the first reasonable thing you've ever said. Templars need to be unbiased in regards to how they police mages. Unless a mage is being belligerent or possessed, the relationship between mage and Templar should be tolerable, if not amicable.

I actually agree to your statement. I also believe that Mages should fallow the same rule that way both parties can get a long.



"I feel that it is important for both Mages and Templars to co-exist with each other. When a Templar struggles during battle Mages are obligated to give a helping hand to his fellow man. It is the Makers will to do so. It is also the duty of the Templars to aid a struggling mage, and to protect them from dangers that awaits them."

This is my motto and I will always stick by it.

Where did you get that quote from?

[Lord Raijin]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

I would argue that mages are just as guilty of using lyrium as templars to help them boost their magic reserves and power. So pretty much both mages and templars are cheaters, going by raijin's definition.

Why use lyrium when mages can use blood magic instead? I find it hard to believe that mages have large quanity of lyrium tucked away inside of their robes for this purpose.

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

I would argue that mages are just as guilty of using lyrium as templars to help them boost their magic reserves and power. So pretty much both mages and templars are cheaters, going by raijin's definition.

Why use lyrium when mages can use blood magic instead? I find it hard to believe that mages have large quanity of lyrium tucked away inside of their robes for this purpose.

Lyrium Potions..