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The *I support the Templars* Thread V2


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#3151
Xilizhra

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His people were being murdered left and right just because of who they were, and the provocations weren't stopping.

Yeah... I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing if my brothers were being killed by some ****s.

There's grounds for anger, but not "murder the whole city." That goes several steps too far.

Considering how many idiots ran around in Kirkwall, I probably would have had a tantrum too. And he had been stuck there for four or five years already, no? That is a VERY long time to not act, especially when it is a holy book at stake. I think he started his attack because he figured that he would have a better chance to find it through force.

Isabela had already left the city; the book would never be in Kirkwall.

#3152
Hellion Rex

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Petrice knows conflict with the qunari is inevitable


As do I, something I said.

I just don't think Thedas is prepared for triggering any sort of war with the Qunari. Killing the Arishok does NOT impede the Qunari's plans in any substantial form, as they would quickly just bring in someone just as skilled, if not more so, to take over the role.


And they did. Its AriSten

#3153
dragonflight288

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Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Both Petrice and the Arishok were horrible, bigoted people out to enforce tyrannical religious agendas upon a populace only wanting to live in peace. There.

IMO, I think the Arishok didn't give two ***** about the conversion of people in Kirkwall. His purpose was to retrieve the Tome of Koslun, nothing more. If people converted, then that was ok. He certainly was not going to lose sleep over converting people in a city that he found to be a vile cesspool.

Petrice was just an ignorant idiot who could not see beyond her own broken interpretation of her vows.

Right, but eventually he starts attacking the entire city for... well, no real reason that I can discern, he's just having a tantrum.


He lost all patience with the city, and he was tired of his men being killed by the Chantry extremists simply for being there and he never retaliated. It got to much for him, and he couldn't handle the corruption, people trying to steal his stuff, people killing his men, and figured "Heck with it," and decided to forcibly take the city as he figured he'd have an easier time finding the tome of Koslun if he simply removed all the obstacles since it was obvious they weren't trying to be peaceful.

#3154
Hellion Rex

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Xilizhra wrote...

His people were being murdered left and right just because of who they were, and the provocations weren't stopping.

Yeah... I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing if my brothers were being killed by some ****s.

There's grounds for anger, but not "murder the whole city." That goes several steps too far.

Considering how many idiots ran around in Kirkwall, I probably would have had a tantrum too. And he had been stuck there for four or five years already, no? That is a VERY long time to not act, especially when it is a holy book at stake. I think he started his attack because he figured that he would have a better chance to find it through force.

Isabela had already left the city; the book would never be in Kirkwall.

But he didn't know that at the time, did he?

#3155
Hazegurl

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Actually, no. While he expresses his dissatisfaction with Kirkwall being a chaotic haven for scum and villainy repeatedly, he acknowledges that it is NOT his role to try and convert the populus. He makes this very clear over the course of the game that while he hates being stranded there, his duty lay elsewhere.


Yet converting is exactly what he tries to do at the end of act 2.
And while his duties lay elsewhere, he could not go home without that book and therefore losing that book meant that he was going to set up in Kirkwall for good, which meant conversion. Pretty much, Kirkwall's future with the Qunari all relied upon one single book. 


So.... what? While being forthright would've helped, I can't exactly blame him for the lack of trust, considering how people view the Qunari and how people would be willing to sell the artifact to the highest bidder.

And he wasn't hoarding explosives. He was hoarding the recipe for explosives. Big difference.


Let's see, he is the representative of his people in a foreign country.
He lies to the representative of that country for his very reason for being there.
He hordes explosives/recipes whatever.

And everyone is supposed to just play nice and twindle their thumbs? Wars are started for less.  Yeah just try going into someone else's country with a loaded gun and claim "Hey, I don't trust you people so let me have my weapons and leave me alone." and see how well that works out. The citizens of Kirkwall had just as much of a reason to not trust the intent of the Qunari within their city.

If he had his book, chances are he would have gone back home. If people had left him alone, he might've indeed done nothing unless new orders came in from Seheron/Par Vollen.


Right, which is why the Arishok chose to stay and convert once he (permanently) lost the book.

As it stood, very few people joined the Qun until **** hit the fan, wherein a large portion of Elves decided they'd help out the Qunari en masse because they had more hope for better treatment under that particular government then any other Thedosian one.


As much as I understand the reasoning of the elves that joined, the fact remains is that you can't just join an organization just so you can get away with murder.  

I won't cast any blame on the Qunari other then their lack of upfront honesty about why they were there, and even then the only person I can really see the Arishok as having to have told all that is Hawke.


Hawke isn't the Viscount.

The man landed with 300-500 men and could've easily taken over Kirkwall if he wanted, and then used the people of Kirkwall after converting to search for the relic. He didn't, because for the time being his duty wasn't to convert the people.


Which is why Kirkwall citizens had a reason to be on guard the moment the Qunari showed up.


But the attack on Kirkwall only occurred after several incidents that served to weaken the Qunari's purpose and forced him to go "You view me a monster? You want a monster?! I'll GIVE YOU A MONSTER!!".


That is wrong. The Arishok did not attack because he was called a monster or treated as such. He didn't give two craps about the people in Kirkwall or what they thought about him, the Qun, or anything else for that matter. The Arishok tells Hawke that eventually the Qun would demand that he enlighten the people of Kirkwall, and considering that elves aren't really considered full Qunari according to Tallis, I doubt he cared all that much for those elves anyway. I won't say it didn't help push the tension but it wasn't what caused the Qunari to attack.

The Arishok tells Hawke that he could not ignore the corruption of Kirkwall nor leave without the book.

If he was going to stay than he was going to force Kirkwall to follow the Qun. The way I see it, if the book was confirmed lost for good in Act One he would have attacked then.

#3156
Xilizhra

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eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

His people were being murdered left and right just because of who they were, and the provocations weren't stopping.

Yeah... I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing if my brothers were being killed by some ****s.

There's grounds for anger, but not "murder the whole city." That goes several steps too far.

Considering how many idiots ran around in Kirkwall, I probably would have had a tantrum too. And he had been stuck there for four or five years already, no? That is a VERY long time to not act, especially when it is a holy book at stake. I think he started his attack because he figured that he would have a better chance to find it through force.

Isabela had already left the city; the book would never be in Kirkwall.

But he didn't know that at the time, did he?

Um, he did. Hawke tells him.

#3157
Hellion Rex

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Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

His people were being murdered left and right just because of who they were, and the provocations weren't stopping.

Yeah... I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing if my brothers were being killed by some ****s.

There's grounds for anger, but not "murder the whole city." That goes several steps too far.

Considering how many idiots ran around in Kirkwall, I probably would have had a tantrum too. And he had been stuck there for four or five years already, no? That is a VERY long time to not act, especially when it is a holy book at stake. I think he started his attack because he figured that he would have a better chance to find it through force.

Isabela had already left the city; the book would never be in Kirkwall.

But he didn't know that at the time, did he?

Um, he did. Hawke tells him.

Oh crap. I forgot that. In that case then, if I myself had just heard that what I had been searching for had just barely escaped my grasp, I would probably have said "screw it" and just started attacking.

#3158
Xilizhra

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Oh crap. I forgot that. In that case then, if I myself had just heard that what I had been searching for had just barely escaped my grasp, I would probably have said "screw it" and just started attacking.

Actually, to clarify, the Arishok knew already even before Hawke mentions it, he just thanks Hawke for the admission if Hawke does admit it. And... again, just randomly attacking the entire city? That's still much too far. It's only slightly less terrible than the Annulment because it's not targeted genocide.

#3159
Hellion Rex

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Xilizhra wrote...

Oh crap. I forgot that. In that case then, if I myself had just heard that what I had been searching for had just barely escaped my grasp, I would probably have said "screw it" and just started attacking.

Actually, to clarify, the Arishok knew already even before Hawke mentions it, he just thanks Hawke for the admission if Hawke does admit it. And... again, just randomly attacking the entire city? That's still much too far. It's only slightly less terrible than the Annulment because it's not targeted genocide.

I am not trying to justify his attempted slaughter. I am merely trying to understand his perspective.

#3160
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Xilizhra wrote...

And... again, just randomly attacking the entire city? That's still much too far. It's only slightly less terrible than the Annulment because it's not targeted genocide.


Except that the Annulment effects far fewer people, for precisely that reason. (Though in the Arishok's defense, he at least wasn't actively seeking to wipe out Kirkwall. Just reform it into a totalitarian, egalitarian society.)

#3161
TEWR

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eluvianix wrote...

And they did. Its AriSten


No, the correct term is Stenishok. :P

There's grounds for anger, but not "murder the whole city." That goes several steps too far.


Well, technically, he was just murdering anyone that opposed him. Not everyone.

But as I said, for all the time he's been there he and his brethren have been viewed as monsters. So, he decides to give them a monster if that's what they want.

No different then the whole Mage-Templar thing, really. Templars view mages as monsters, bully the dragon, and end up creating monsters themselves.

#3162
Hellion Rex

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

And they did. Its AriSten


No, the correct term is Stenishok. :P

There's grounds for anger, but not "murder the whole city." That goes several steps too far.


Well, technically, he was just murdering anyone that opposed him. Not everyone.

But as I said, for all the time he's been there he and his brethren have been viewed as monsters. So, he decides to give them a monster if that's what they want.

No different then the whole Mage-Templar thing, really. Templars view mages as monsters, bully the dragon, and end up creating monsters themselves.

I can certainly see some similarities in that sense.

#3163
Lord Raijin

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Hazegurl wrote...

Call it a fail all you like, but Mages turn to demons and blood magic out of weakness. Relying on Lyrium is a crutch that grants the user unnatural abilities or enhances them, the same is said for demon summoning. You can't cry about mages being weak and turning to demons then call Templars weak for turning to Lyrium and expect to be taken seriously.  And what I mean by imprison, is to be in a prison. You know, like you continue to claim that's where the mages are in the Circle.


You call it a weakness and I call it an act of survival. Besides blood magic is just another art of magic that many people happen to do not agree with because of its nature. I do not have a problem with an experienced level minded blood mage summoning demons to fight beside him during battle. I happen to be a diehard conjuration caster in Skyrim. One of my favorite things is to conjure Dremora Lord(s) against my enemies.
 
Yes...imprisoned, just like what the mages are getting fed up with, and are fighting for their freedom so they can live the life like a normal human being.

And it also will not change if the Mage leaders never bother to take strides to make those changes. They sat on their a**es and partied for years while they had the sympathy of the Divine in their pocket and did nothing with it. You can place the blame on the Templars all you like, but the Mage leaders share half the responsibility for how the Circles turned out.


Are we speaking about Asunder? I haven't yet read the book so I really don't know what happen during the arc. Base on what I've been reading from people on here the Divine seems like a person that I, as a pro-mage, would respect and admire, and perhabs I truly underestimated the Divine Justinia V Chantry.

As I type this I decided to take out this juicy book and put Stolen throne aside so I can see what you see. You've convinced me.

 

Have fun with that. I for one hope to never see that annoying idiot ever again.


by Andraste's panties! What do you have againt Justice? Hes a badass :)


As is Anders.


Maker NO!

#3164
dragonflight288

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And they did. Its AriSten


He belongs in Dragon's Dogma. ^_^

#3165
Star fury

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

His people were being murdered left and right just because of who they were, and the provocations weren't stopping.

Yeah... I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing if my brothers were being killed by some ****s.


Arishok then should've buggered off to his Qunari homeland because he and his band were in a FOREIGN country. Frankly it's beyond stupid how a Kirkwal's vicount tolerated the qunari so much and so long. 

#3166
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Lord Raijin wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Call it a fail all you like, but Mages turn to demons and blood magic out of weakness. Relying on Lyrium is a crutch that grants the user unnatural abilities or enhances them, the same is said for demon summoning. You can't cry about mages being weak and turning to demons then call Templars weak for turning to Lyrium and expect to be taken seriously.  And what I mean by imprison, is to be in a prison. You know, like you continue to claim that's where the mages are in the Circle.


You call it a weakness and I call it an act of survival. Besides blood magic is just another art of magic that many people happen to do not agree with because of its nature. I do not have a problem with an experienced level minded blood mage summoning demons to fight beside him during battle. I happen to be a diehard conjuration caster in Skyrim. One of my favorite things is to conjure Dremora Lord(s) against my enemies.


It's not quite the same thing. Demons are much more difficult to control than Dremora, and the stakes for messing up can be far worse.

#3167
Lord Raijin

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Patrice wasn't that bad. She recognized the Qunari threat and wanted to quash it...okay a lot of it was fueled by her own prejudices. But she wasn't wrong about the danger they posed to the city. I hated that my Hawke had to be a stern personality type to side with her.


Petrice was a moron who couldn't be bothered to see the grand scheme of things and focused solely on the short-term, willing to endanger all of Thedas in a war with the Qunari.

One, the Qunari in Kirkwall weren't doing jack **** to cause trouble. Two, it took all of Thedas just to be able to start pushing the Qunari back, and Ferelden has suffered from a Blight that crippled its army pretty badly and is only just starting to recover, so that nixes one nation.

She's extremely lucky that the Qunari are patient and weren't willing to go full-scale war after the incident in Kirkwall, and if the Qunari hadn't killed her I would've. 

Regardless if I'd sided with her or not.


The tragedy of the whole situation with Petrice is that if you do side with her Grand Cleric Elthina gives her such a light punishment after catching on to what shes been doing with the Qunari. She was not only responsible for the death of the Viscount son but the the Viscount himself. Their were plenty of death of the citizens too, and the only punishment that Ethina gave to this woman is a demotion, thats all. Funny how she had the former viscount executed for his crimes, but go soft on her own kind. Double standards.

Anders did right by blowing up the Chantry. They had it coming.

#3168
ScarMK

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Lord Raijin wrote...

Anders did right by blowing up the Chantry. They had it coming.


ScarMK wrote...
Anders blowing up the chantry?  Nope, they had it coming because they oppressed him.  


Too easy.

#3169
Lord Raijin

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Xilizhra wrote...

Both Petrice and the Arishok were horrible, bigoted people out to enforce tyrannical religious agendas upon a populace only wanting to live in peace. There.


Don't forget to add Grand Ceric Elthina onto that list of yours :)

#3170
dragonflight288

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Anders did right by blowing up the Chantry. They had it coming.


You just reminded me of this.

#3171
Lord Raijin

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Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

It's not quite the same thing. Demons are much more difficult to control than Dremora, and the stakes for messing up can be far worse.


For weak mages yes. I'm certain that the mages of Tevinter Imperium are far more signicant and have far more experience with magic than the mages from the south.

#3172
Star fury

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Lord Raijin wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Both Petrice and the Arishok were horrible, bigoted people out to enforce tyrannical religious agendas upon a populace only wanting to live in peace. There.


Don't forget to add Grand Ceric Elthina onto that list of yours :)


Anders is a martyr and saint too, we get it.

#3173
Lord Raijin

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Star fury wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Both Petrice and the Arishok were horrible, bigoted people out to enforce tyrannical religious agendas upon a populace only wanting to live in peace. There.


Don't forget to add Grand Ceric Elthina onto that list of yours :)


Anders is a martyr and saint too, we get it.


Posted Image

Anders smiles to that comment :)

#3174
The Flying Grey Warden

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Lord Raijin wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

It's not quite the same thing. Demons are much more difficult to control than Dremora, and the stakes for messing up can be far worse.


For weak mages yes. I'm certain that the mages of Tevinter Imperium are far more signicant and have far more experience with magic than the mages from the south.


There is no controlling a demon. Once you summon them, they'll kill everything in the area or try to possess it. The best course of action is to

1. Not summon them.
2. If you summon them, run as fast as you can to avoid them turning on you.

Unless the demon happens to find some benefit in serving the blood mage, in which case you may be royaly ****ed as it will no doubt be using you until it no longer has need of your services and will promptly kill, possess, or ignore them as it does whatever the heck it wants.

#3175
Medhia Nox

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Ander's isn't a martyr in any playthru of mine.

My Inquisitor will saarebas Anders, leaving him one eye so that I can show him everything he's done... and how I'm going to undo it.

Then, when the portals are closed - and the mage insurgency is crushed - I'll take his other eye and Tranquilize him.

Then he'll be sent to Kirkwall to help rebuild the Chantry there.

There - now I feel better.