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[Lord Raijin]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Lord Raijin: That clinic was a terrorist cell he used to hide his nefarious actions. Notice those Fereldens waiting to beat anyone up to protect Anders? Yeah... that clinic served a purpose. Hide Anders until he could commit to his act of terrorism.

I never knew that terrorism could help people in desperate times, and no. Theirs no proof that Anders was using his Clinic for terroristic purpose. He was using it to help people. It wasn't much of a hiding place when everyone knows about it. Even Seneschal Bran knew where it was.

[Fredward]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...
@Lord Raijin: That clinic was a terrorist cell he used to hide his nefarious actions. Notice those Fereldens waiting to beat anyone up to protect Anders? Yeah... that clinic served a purpose. Hide Anders until he could commit to his act of terrorism.

I never knew that terrorism could help people in desperate times, and no. Theirs no proof that Anders was using his Clinic for terroristic purpose. He was using it to help people. It wasn't much of a hiding place when everyone knows about it. Even Seneschal Bran knew where it was.

I don't think s/he was being awfully serious.

[Medhia Nox]

@Foopydoopydo: It's not the "greater" good though - mages are a minority. It has to be purely a "moral absolute good" - and if he's basing his act of violence on a "moral absolute good" he's the absolute worst type of moralist to follow.

History and art of chalk full of villains who believe in their righteousness.

Also - I wasn't being "awfully" serious - but yes, I believe Ander's ultimate goal was to hide behind that clinic so he could funnel blood mages out of the Circle and gather his supplies for his bomb.

To convince those Fereldens not to attack you - you can say: "I'm on your side."  or something close to it.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 07 novembre 2013 - 06:09 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

@Xilizhra: Yes, well - best not to bite the hands of the whiney self-entitled gamers that feed you.

Your opinion is depressing, but said gamers are why Anders will come off well in DAI if he's alive, at least he's friended.

Considering that he attempts to kill a mage who he was present to rescue well before he finally loses his mind entirely, I don't think there's enough whiny gamers in the world to make him sane in his cameo.

[ScarMK]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I don't think s/he was being awfully serious.

Probably not about the terrorist cell part, but that second part really wouldn't surprise me.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Considering that he attempts to kill a mage who he was present to rescue well before he finally loses his mind entirely, I don't think there's enough whiny gamers in the world to make him sane in his cameo.

Isn't he a lost cause either way?  Either Hawke enables him and encourages him to continue doing it, or Hawke shows him the error of his ways only to lose himself more to Justice.

Modifié par ScarMK, 07 novembre 2013 - 06:10 .

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Foopydoopydo: It's not the "greater" good though - mages are a minority. It has to be purely a "moral absolute good" - and if he's basing his act of violence on a "moral absolute good" he's the absolute worst type of moralist to follow.

History and art of chalk full of villains who believe in their righteousness.

It is for the greater good, though, or at least a greater good than that which had existed before. It's ending a thousand-year cycle of oppression and death that would continue devouring the innocent in years to come were it allowed to continue existing.

Considering that he attempts to kill a mage who he was present to rescue
well before he finally loses his mind entirely, I don't think there's
enough whiny gamers in the world to make him sane in his cameo.

His outlook and manner in The Last Straw if friended are far too positive to foreshadow that.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 07 novembre 2013 - 06:09 .

[Mr.House]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

@Xilizhra: Yes, well - best not to bite the hands of the whiney self-entitled gamers that feed you.

Your opinion is depressing, but said gamers are why Anders will come off well in DAI if he's alive, at least he's friended.

Considering that he attempts to kill a mage who he was present to rescue well before he finally loses his mind entirely, I don't think there's enough whiny gamers in the world to make him sane in his cameo.

That mage was cleary a templar.

[Fredward]

Medhia Nox wrote...
@Foopydoopydo: It's not the "greater" good though - mages are a minority. It has to be purely a "moral absolute good" - and if he's basing his act of violence on a "moral absolute good" he's the absolute worst type of moralist to follow.

History and art of chalk full of villains who believe in their righteousness.

I'm not agreeing with his reasoning I'm just trying to figure it out. Anders identifies with the injustice faced by the mages, he sees himself as a mage first and a person second (never a particularly healthy viewpoint seeing yourself as a what before a who but w/e) so for him the "greater good" is going to be confined to his population of interest not society as a whole. He's gonna see them as either active or passive participants in the oppression of his group anyway. He might feel bad about killing the passive ones but he'd see it as a necessary sacrifice.

Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 07 novembre 2013 - 06:12 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: You REALLY think it's going to end a thousand year cycle of oppression and death?

Cailan, is that you?

Templars hunted mages LONG before the Chantry saved them... you know, when mages were free and the world was in total chaos according to the Codex. Templars will hunt mages well after Ander's little stunt.

That's the entire point - the end does NOT justify the means. There is no end.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 07 novembre 2013 - 06:12 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

His outlook and manner in The Last Straw if friended are far too positive to foreshadow that.

Ella and the Chantry explosion are a bit negative to foreshadow anything else. He might have moments of lucidity, but I don't see them lasting without an excorcism.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 07 novembre 2013 - 06:14 .

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra: You REALLY think it's going to end a thousand year cycle of oppression and death?

I don't know. What I do know is that it'll never end if no one tries to stop it.

Ella and the Chantry explosion are a bit negative to foreshadow anything else.

Both happen before what I mentioned, and neither is the final impression of Anders if you don't kill him.

[Mr.House]

If he fights for justice, then he should know justice also demands his death for his crimes. You can't change justice to fit your own needs.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Mr.House wrote...

If he fights for justice, then he should know justice also demands his death for his crimes. You can't change justice to fit your own needs.

I think the dialogue states that he's aware of this.

[Xilizhra]

Mr.House wrote...

If he fights for justice, then he should know justice also demands his death for his crimes. You can't change justice to fit your own needs.

There's a lot of justice that needs doing in the world, and it's more important to stop the injustices currently being done.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: So, you think the best way to stop it is to... create fear (a form of oppression) and death?

Or, at the very least, you support someone who wants to stop oppression and death by using oppression and death?

[Fredward]

Mr.House wrote...
If he fights for justice, then he should know justice also demands his death for his crimes. You can't change justice to fit your own needs.

I think he does. It's why he was willing to commit suicide through Hawke. I'm seeing either a dramatic death in a last stand type scenario or just a straight up suicide should the mages win their freedom.

[Inquisitor Recon]

As history shows, the obvious solution to stopping a centuries old conflict is to blow something up. Always works.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: So, you think the best way to stop it is to... create fear (a form of oppression) and death?

Or, at the very least, you support someone who wants to stop oppression and death by using oppression and death?

What I'm doing is not killing him.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ella and the Chantry explosion are a bit negative to foreshadow anything else.

Both happen before what I mentioned, and neither is the final impression of Anders if you don't kill him.

Okay, since I haven't played that game, what is your observation of this final impression and how does it differ from the aftermath of his attempt to kill Ella? And what makes you so sure he can hold it with a personification of Vengeance in his mind?

Xilizhra wrote...

What I'm doing is not killing him.

While I don't really believe in capital punishment, I see no other way to make him non-dangerous.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 07 novembre 2013 - 06:26 .

[The Flying Grey Warden]

You know what templars need? A kickass theme song. Whose with me?

[Xilizhra]

Okay, since I haven't played that game, what is your observation of this final impression and how does it differ from the aftermath of his attempt to kill Ella? And what makes you so sure he can hold it with a personification of Vengeance in his mind?

He's calmer, happier, more optimistic and more assured. He seems to be given a lot of hope by Hawke allowing him to live, in addition to saying that he'll try not to make such a mess of his life this time. And Justice is no longer hammering on the inside of his head to make him do something about the mage situation; he's now done something. Justice is satiated. Even if it demands more, said demands are likely to be less stringent.

[Gallimatia]

Anders is an irrelevant shareholder in his body. What does Anders altruism, motives and regret matter when as soon as they are at a conflict with Justice ideas of justice he will blackout and lose control of his body?

Left unchecked Justice will keep killing until there's two people left in the world. Then it will kill one for mistreating the other and then it will kill the last for failing to give Justice just praise. It will always find injustice and it will always use extreme measures to correct it because it doesn't care about anything else. Even in a dalish utopia with only blood mages it would find it's victims and feed it's hunger for justice.

If your agenda happen to coincide with Justice's injustice of the day you may find it a useful ally but failing to take advantage of a moment in time where Justice felt it deserved death could be costly because Justice has ungodly power. If for instance it wanted to kill Hawke and Hawke's team it would and there's nothing Anders could do to stop it. Of course that's also the charm with keeping it. It can just as easily kill a band of Templars.

[Lord Raijin]

So I've started reading Asunder.... the book that everyone has been discussing here and what do I come across on the very first chapter?!?! Templars abusing the mages! The prisons (The pit) is rat infected and completely dark. When mages get toss in the cell almost right away the rats starts munching on their flesh with their razor sharp teeth, and theirs no way for the mage to escape the torture that they're experiencing.

This is a class act of oppression against mages.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...
He's calmer, happier, more optimistic and more assured. He seems to be given a lot of hope by Hawke allowing him to live, in addition to saying that he'll try not to make such a mess of his life this time. And Justice is no longer hammering on the inside of his head to make him do something about the mage situation; he's now done something. Justice is satiated. Even if it demands more, said demands are likely to be less stringent.

You're drawing a lot of conclusions here and projecting.
It's the very end of the game.
Literaly half an hour of game time...spent fighting (which is basicly the least likely time for him to go psycho).
Compared to 7(?) years before that.
Two lines hardly mean anything - he was saying sappy s*** before that too.

So, no, the ending is anbything but conclusive and Anders being hopefull means nothing really.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Okay, since I haven't played that game, what is your observation of this final impression and how does it differ from the aftermath of his attempt to kill Ella? And what makes you so sure he can hold it with a personification of Vengeance in his mind?

He's calmer, happier, more optimistic and more assured. He seems to be given a lot of hope by Hawke allowing him to live, in addition to saying that he'll try not to make such a mess of his life this time. And Justice is no longer hammering on the inside of his head to make him do something about the mage situation; he's now done something. Justice is satiated. Even if it demands more, said demands are likely to be less stringent.

Is it even possible for Justice to be permanently satiated? Even if the mages got everything they wanted, Justice would find something else to avenge. Furthermore, trying not to make a mess of things doesn't mean much; I'm mostly picturing Justice in control of the Anders cameo, not Anders himself.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 07 novembre 2013 - 07:12 .