4643 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Considering that I've talked to Torpor and then killed him and, near as I can recall, she hasn't gained Rivalry from it... I think I'm more then spot on and I'll thank you kindly to not go the Lotion Soronnar route of disregarding anything that doesn't fit your preconceived notions.

I'd like it if poeple wouldn't go the The Ethereal Writer Redux route and act like total wankers.

Frankly, you using every opportunity to insult me (because I don't convert to your way of thinking) is getting old..and annoying.

[Lord Raijin]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

See, this wouldn't bug me so much if he had said "The KC and FE knew I was too weak", because then I could say "Well... he was too weak and for once Meredith and Orsino were able to work together, as is Circle protocol, to determine who is fit and who is not."

But this? It's just more of Meredith trying to run roughshod over what little rights the Mages do have.

Working with Meredith is like walking up to a wild beast and trying to make friends with it. Meredith is a control freak. Her plans was to fully seize control of the city and the Circle, but Orsino was not going to bow down to her, and even made several public disputes to try to patch up the wounds what meredith had caused over the years.

I always wondered about that mysterious tranquil woman who worked for Meredith. I wonder if she was a "You're weak so you're going to be made tranquil" victim.

[Lord Raijin]

[quote]Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

[quote]Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Alain was scared and being raped constantly, on top of being beaten.

Even with Karras dead it still goes on.

I'll not blame him for joining a rebellion against Meredith.[/quote]I blame him for running back to the Templars when his buddies start using blood magic
[/quote]

So his buddies using blood magic was a good thing? Or are you saying he's partly responsible for his being abused by rape and beaten by templars?

[/quote]No I blame him for trying to use the Templars as a safety net after his buddies do something he's uncomfortable with and for going back to the Circle that abuses him because of it.
[/quote]

Oh come on! He was trying to do the right thing by surrendering to the Templars. It's not his fault for getting abused. It's Meredith fault and the templars who abused the mages.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
5 mages who were out in the city and were caught by surprise by probably the entire qunari force going to the viscounts keep.
Yeah...[/quote]

But
I thought mages were  dangerous? They can light an entire city on fire.
Thats what the Knight-Captain says. I see otherwise. Mages in Kirkwall,
other than the blood mages, are incrediably weak, even the F.E.


[quote
Ahemn..."You can see she is becoming more and more fed up with Meredith."

Do you know your tenses? Becoming - as in an ongoing process, sill not finished. Her anger-meter wasn't full yet.[/quote]

Her
actions speaks louder I don't care about her "anger-meter" as it
means nothing to me. The fact that she didn't do anything indicates that
she wasn't professionally fed up with Meredith.



[quote]

How naive you are to think that emotional connections wouldn't interefere with duties.[/quote]
Uh, what? If you as a templar show respect for mages then the mages will entrust you, and will give you respect back.



[quote]Must be the reason why you're running away from it so had.

[/quote]

How exactly am I running away from it?

[Shadow Fox]

If that was the case why did he join Thrask's rebellion in the first place?I guess I don't have much sympathy for people who willingly return to a place/situation where they'll be abused instead of at-least trying to seek help.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lord Raijin wrote...
But
I thought mages were  dangerous? They can light an entire city on fire.
Thats what the Knight-Captain says. I see otherwise. Mages in Kirkwall,
other than the blood mages, are incrediably weak, even the F.E.

Because class balance and plot.

And 5 mages caugh off-guard vs 500 qunari (who had their own mages)? Yeah.

Ahemn..."You can see she is becoming more and more fed up with Meredith."

Do you know your tenses? Becoming - as in an ongoing process, sill not finished. Her anger-meter wasn't full yet.

Her actions speaks louder I don't care about her "anger-meter" as it  means nothing to me. The fact that she didn't do anything indicates that she wasn't professionally fed up with Meredith.

I don't care about you don't careing. It means nothing to me.

She not doing "anything" (which is incorrect. She was trying to get them to compromise and sort the mess themselves), does not mean she won't so anything.

But Anders couldn't wait.

How naive you are to think that emotional connections wouldn't interefere with duties.

Uh, what? If you as a templar show respect for mages then the mages will entrust you, and will give you respect back.

As I said - naive.
And respect is not the same thing as emotional connection.

[LOLandStuff]

Lord Raijin wrote...

How naive you are to think that emotional connections wouldn't interefere with duties.

Uh, what? If you as a templar show respect for mages then the mages will entrust you, and will give you respect back.

Do I have to bring up Grace again?
Oh wait, I just did.

Modifié par LOLandStuff, 08 novembre 2013 - 09:12 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
One Templar in command of others, with only one of them being of a decent mindset and bringing the matter to Meredith -- who then promptly ignored it -- and being blackmailed into carrying out the orders.

And getting killed for it, sadly.

Alrik is indicative of the problematic lack of oversight inherent in Kirkwall's system. Meredith could not have failed to notice the growing number of unauthorized Tranquil, as per DAO it takes the authorized signature and seal of both the FE and KC to perform the RoT on any mage.

No doubt, these things would have been brought to her attention either through gossip, subordinates, Orsino yelling about it, or just common sense.

The fact that Alrik existed does not change the also fact that certain mages thought that Kirkwall's Circle wasn't such a bad place to live in. Obviously, with a population of hundreds and with Alrik being one templar, he couldn't threaten the whole Circle.

Also, we have no idea how those illegal Tranquilizations went. If mages just appeared Tranquil out of the blue or if Alrik came up with excuses.

With her doing nothing about it -- no investigation, no reprimands, nothing -- it's a clear sign of her tacit approval of what's going, particularly with the above image demonstrating that she doesn't give a damn about working with Orsino as is Chantry law regarding Circle operations.

Orsino also spent the whole of Act III either openly fighting against Meredith or simply going behind her back. Unwillingness to cooperate is as much on his head as Meredith's.
More, actually, considering we know since the very year Hawke arrived in Kirkwall, Orsino was already concealing the existence of Quentin as well as importing his research into the Circle and studying it.

In the Templar ending, she chides Meredith for assuming everyone is guilty, regardless of whether it's true or not. She's lost everyone she held dear. Her students, her mentor, and even her sibling who was willing to do something like that.

She believes that Meredith caused Orsino's transformation; which is bull, he was a blood mage from day one; but she also says that she is unsure whether she is worthy of Hawke's mercy.

Also, I can't believe how selfish Bethany can be if Hawke sides with the Templars. She tries to emotionally blackmail her sibling into supporting the mages by saying if s/he will fight his/her own sister and then says: "Don't make me do this; don't make me choose between my brother/sister and my people."
And she doesn't seem to realize that is the very same thing she just tried to have Hawke do. Choose between his/her family (Bethany) and his/her people (non-mages)

We also have Alain's comments on Starkhaven, telling us that it was only marginally better then Kirkwall. In Kirkwall, Mages get beaten in public and no one says a thing to stop it.

And that implies mages either didn't get beaten in Starkhaven or someone did something about it. Seems like a good Circle.

[MisterJB]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Dude she thinks Merrill was a responsible Blood Mage...

"I'm going to use blood magic on instructions from a demon to work on an entirely unknown magical device which has already killed people and I'm going to do this in the middle of an heavily populated area where the Veil has more holes in it than cheese."
Kudos on her for not actually killing anyone with it but that is anything but being responsible.

[LOLandStuff]

Apparently dumb luck means being responsible.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

"I'm going to use blood magic on instructions from a demon

Actually, her first instinct was to combine her magic with Marethari's to drive out the Taint, something she'd brought up with her and she mentions in-game. Marethari refused, and since she didn't have lyrium about and it wasn't feasible for her to obtain it, she chose blood magic.

The Demon didn't offer it to her, she went to the Demon and asked to learn how to use it. And it really was a last resort.

to work on an entirely unknown magical device which has already killed people

Not unknown, she's doing research on it, and it was the Taint that killed Tamlen/Mahariel. And that's not an issue when you meet her. When you meet her, she just has a piece of glass because she used blood magic to amplify healing magic she had been taught by Marethari and, while in an unamplified state, had been proven to combat the taint in Mahariel.

and I'm going to do this in the middle of an heavily populated area where the Veil has more holes in it than cheese."

She didn't know the Veil was thin in Kirkwall, probably not until she'd already settled down there.

But then, DAII did discard the whole Mages can sense Veil tears bit of lore DAO firmly established....

Kudos on her for not actually killing anyone with it but that is anything but being responsible.

She exiled herself from a clan so that they wouldn't be in danger should anything have come to pass. One could even argue that the isolation she contributed to in Kirkwall was influenced in part by a desire to keep the people of Kirkwall safe (subconsciously, though).

She also makes it a point to study the thing over seven years, something her teacher couldn't be bothered to do. And brings Hawke with her in a meeting with a Demon who, while trapped and sundered from the Fade, might still attempt something else.

She knows how to play demons before they play you, acknowledges there isn't a single good spirit, and advises Hawke on how best to ward off a certain demon's advances (Torpor).

Provided Anders doesn't override her dialogue.

EDIT: I'll address your other post tomorrow night, MisterJB.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 novembre 2013 - 12:16 .

[dragonflight288]

LOLandStuff wrote...

Apparently dumb luck means being responsible.

Oh? Let me ask you a question, and please don't be snarky or make any side comments. Simply put, do you consider Merethari more responsible than Merrill when it comes to demons?

[LOLandStuff]

@dragonflight288

Of course not. But She did what she had to in order to protect Merrill from her own stupidity.
I feel sorry for the clan for losing their keeper because of an idiot and another idiot who cared too much for one person instead of the good of the whole clan.
I blame Merrill for starting it and Marethari for not letting it go. The demon played them both, if it wasn't Merrill then better try with Marethari.
It's a wonder they managed to survive for 7 years on Sundermount.

[dragonflight288]

LOLandStuff wrote...

@dragonflight288

Of course not. But She did what she had to in order to protect Merrill from her own stupidity.
I feel sorry for the clan for losing their keeper because of an idiot and another idiot who cared too much for one person instead of the good of the whole clan.
I blame Merrill for starting it and Marethari for not letting it go. The demon played them both, if it wasn't Merrill then better try with Marethari.
It's a wonder they managed to survive for 7 years on Sundermount.

I guess this is where we differ, as I see Merrill completely different. I don't see Merrill as an idiot, but as the one Dalish in the area who was trying to do what the Dalish claim they seek to do. Gaider confirmed that Merrill extrapolated a lot of information from the cleansed shard, and researched a lot of lore on eluvians before she started building it.

Also, there is no evidence up until when Abomination-Merethari says it that the demon was planning to use the eluvian to escape. Up until that point, Merethari was crying out that Merrill would bring back the darkspawn taint that took two of their hunters. Merethari's warnings had nothing to do with the demon itself and everything to do with her fear of the darkspawn.

[Reznore57]

The Dalish are indeed looking for their lost history , but they need to survive first.
Merrill is putting the clan in great danger , the Eluvian was tainted ...probably because it lead to a tainted place.Cleaning the shards won't help if the Eluvian lead to the very same place.
And she got in touch with a demon , she knows it's dangerous .And she can turn in an abomination.She thinks it's worth it.

Well her clan doesn't agree .
It's the same in the Dalish origin , you find some ruin , got tainted , Tamlen was lost.
When you came back ,nobody said oh great you found some Dalish Artifact , the Keeper and the storyteller dude are pissed.
You're hunters , you put yourself in danger , you put the clan in danger.

The way I see it for Dalish survival is way more important than recovering some lost knowledge.
Merrill on the other hand is willing to die for that.

[dragonflight288]

Reznore57 wrote...

The Dalish are indeed looking for their lost history , but they need to survive first.
Merrill is putting the clan in great danger , the Eluvian was tainted ...probably because it lead to a tainted place.Cleaning the shards won't help if the Eluvian lead to the very same place.

Merrill exiled herself from the clan and cleansed the shard of the taint. The fact that she remains in close proximity to it for nearly a decade without getting tainted or tainting other alienage elves is proof that she succeeded.

And there were darkspawn in the ruins when we went back there the second time if you play as a Dalish Warden, and since darkspawn corrupt everything they come in contact with, it's quite likely that's how that mirror got tainted in the first place.

And she got in touch with a demon , she knows it's dangerous .And she can turn in an abomination.She thinks it's worth it.

Oh? First thing she did was collect a shard and asked Merethari to help her cleanse it of the taint useing their combined magic, which worked on the Dalish Warden to an extent, so we know they can successfully combat the taint. Merethari refused because she was so terrified of the taint. Merrill talks about how she lacked lyrium to amplify her own magic because the chantry controls the lyrium trade, so blood magic was used as the absolute last resort.

Add in that if you read Merrill's short story, it talks about how the demon started influencing both her and Merethari after they arrived on Sundermount, and the closer they got to the demon, the stronger they felt his presnce. Merrill removed herself from Sundermount entirely, so the entire game she is outside of the demon's influence. Wheras Merethari remained on Sundermount.

Merrill never says demons aren't dangerous. She specifically tells Anders that all spirts are dangerous, and the lore makes it clear that demons are simply spirits like Faith or Valor, but they embody vices and are interested in the mortal world compared to the so called 'benevolent' spirits, who couldn't care less about mortals.

Well her clan doesn't agree .
It's the same in the Dalish origin , you find some ruin , got tainted , Tamlen was lost.
When you came back ,nobody said oh great you found some Dalish Artifact , the Keeper and the storyteller dude are pissed.
You're hunters , you put yourself in danger , you put the clan in danger.

I just played the Dalish origin last night. They aren't pissed at you and Tamlen for finding the mirror and getting tainted. Heck, one Hunter asks to join you and Merrill and is also quite interested in the mirror, and protests when Duncan smashes it.

They're upset that Tamlen is missing, expressing grief, and quite angry they have to pick up and leave because the local human village is rallying to attack them or drive them off, and may have been provoked by the Dalish Warden.

The way I see it for Dalish survival is way more important than recovering some lost knowledge.
Merrill on the other hand is willing to die for that.

And she separated herself from the clan to keep them out of danger. She had Hawke on hand to help her out, and prepares a failsafe (Hawke killing her) when she went back to the demon knowing there was a risk.

[Reznore57]

The mirror is the only tainted thing in these ruins.
The first time you go there , there is no Darkspawn .
Somehow after Tamlen and the Dalish wardens touched the mirror , Darkspawn are here.
How strange!

Merril suceeded in cleaning a shard , if the Mirror is linked to a place with darkspawn , once repaired , it will get tainted again.
Merrill never suceed , at the end of DA2 , the mirror is still not working.

And you should replay the Dalish origin , talk to the Keeper and Paivel.
The Keeper said "Tamlen is more important than any lost knowledge"
Paivel rants that you should have come to the Keeper first , and losing *the warden* would be a crime ."You belong to more than just yourself"
So they value survival of the clan above Knowledge , and your first duty is clan survival , not your own desires.

Merrill action goes against that , she put herself in danger , and value the Eluvian more than her own life.
She doesn't leave the clan to keep them from danger , she left the clan because she was told you give up the Eluvian or you're kicked out , your choice.
She choose the mirror.

[Lord Raijin]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

If that was the case why did he join Thrask's rebellion in the first place?I guess I don't have much sympathy for people who willingly return to a place/situation where they'll be abused instead of at-least trying to seek help.

Alain joined Thrask rebellion because it was also Grace rebellion as well. Grace was probably like a family member to him, since that is all who he knows and have, and the fact that Meredith made several of his own Circle members from Starkhaven tranquil without a proper cause gave him more reasons to join the rebellion against Meredith.

I have far more respect for those who's willingly return to a place/situation where they know they will be abused. It's call being loyal to your comrades.

Alain reminds me a of a British POW who escaped over 200 times to be with his girlfriend during WW2.

Here's a short story about this true loyal man.

The man's name was Horace Greasley. He was a British POW famous for escaping over 200 times to visit his girlfriend, a local Jewish girl. Why did he keep going back? Loyalty. He returned every time with extra food or other contraband to share with his fellow captives. Greasley spent 5 years as a prisoner of war, during which time he served as camp barber and worked in the marble quarries.

Following capture, the men were forced to march for ten weeks from France to Poland. The men suffered deplorable conditions and spent a winter, in temperatures as low as -40C, lodged in an old horse stable. Those who survived the march and train transfer were beaten, tortured, and starved. Greasley was once beaten so badly he lay unconscious for 2 days. In 2008, his biography, "Do the Birds Still Sing in Hell?" was published. Two years after its release, he died at age 91.

When I see this photo, I always admire the defiance in his face. He refused to be broken. Be that guy.

Oh and by the way, the German officer he's staring down is Heinrich Himmler.

Alain reminds me of this hero and true loyal man.

[Lord Raijin]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Because class balance and plot.

And 5 mages caugh off-guard vs 500 qunari (who had their own mages)? Yeah.

I strongly doubt that they were approched by 500 qunari.

I don't care about you don't careing. It means nothing to me.

She not doing "anything" (which is incorrect. She was trying to get them to compromise and sort the mess themselves), does not mean she won't so anything.

But Anders couldn't wait.

She failed at controling her templars and failed at protecting the city from her corrupted templars. She's a FAILED Grand Cleric and some of the citizens acknowledges this, and requested a replacement Grand Cleric. It's not that hard to comprehend, since the evidence is all in the game.

LOLandStuff wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

How naive you are to think that emotional connections wouldn't interefere with duties.

Uh, what? If you as a templar show respect for mages then the mages will entrust you, and will give you respect back.

Do I have to bring up Grace again?
Oh wait, I just did.

You do that while I'll bring up Ser Maurevar Carver and Malcolm hawke once more

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 08 novembre 2013 - 07:16 .

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

LOLandStuff wrote...

Apparently dumb luck means being responsible.

Oh? Let me ask you a question, and please don't be snarky or make any side comments. Simply put, do you consider Merethari more responsible than Merrill when it comes to demons?

I think that at the end of the day, no matter what Marethari thought of Merrill's choices, she still loved her enough to sacrifice herself so that Merrill wouldn't be possessed. At the same time, Marethari's choice shows Merrill that there are indeed consequences for any actions you take in life, blood magic or no. 
Flemeth was right in telling her that there is no darker path than when one's eyes are shut. 

[MisterJB]

And the absolute lowest form of "argument" strikes again.
F*cking Godwin should be against forum rules. Most of the time it's either historically innacurate or just plain pointless to the dialogue in question. This one manages to be both.

[HiroVoid]

Is the term **** still censored by the forum?

Edit: Huh.  Guess it is.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 08 novembre 2013 - 08:55 .

[MisterJB]

Gengis Khan, Mao Tse Tung, Joseph Stalin, Attila.
Those seem to be a-ok.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

Gengis Khan, Mao Tse Tung, Joseph Stalin, Attila.
Those seem to be a-ok.

As opposed to using Hitler?

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Gengis Khan, Mao Tse Tung, Joseph Stalin, Attila.
Those seem to be a-ok.

As opposed to using Hitler?

You will find that the names of the groups associated with or lead by the personages I previously mentioned are not censored.

Modifié par MisterJB, 08 novembre 2013 - 09:18 .

[The Flying Grey Warden]

I think this site just needs a big disclaimer that all discussions may end up involving world war 2 era germany comparisons.