4643 réponses à ce sujet

[Icy Magebane]

MisterJB wrote...

I won't claim that the technological stagnation of Thedas can be blamed, entirely, on the overreliance on magic but it is, certainly, a factor.
The dwarves are much more advanced; and some of their inventions like the smokeless coal were created after the First Blight; and they deal with the greatest threat on Thedas in a daily basis.

I don't see magical innovations as stifling scientific research.  If anything, it would give non-mage scholars a greater need to understand technology so that they could compete commercially.  I'm going to spare you all the long list that I was writing to outline some of the possible applications of magic and how they would benefit science.  Instead, let me just point you in the direction of "Ice Generation," which gives civilization access to unlimited amounts of clean water, and "Electrical Generation," which gives scholars/scientists direct access to an energy source with countless industrial applications.  In the case of the latter, simply having easy access to electricity is enough to propel science forward... you don't need to wait for lightning to strike in order to study it, so the value of this energy becomes apparent sooner and people interested in making money would then begin finding practical applications for it.

Also, Branka invented smokeless coal.. that was a few years before the 5th Blight.

And... what over-reliance on magic?  Mages aren't allowed to do anything...

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 10 novembre 2013 - 08:55 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Icy Magebane wrote...

And... what over-reliance on magic?  Mages aren't allowed to do anything...

Mages are allowed out to serve certain high-ranking lords. But I think what he meant was that the technology Thedas uses tends to rely on lyrium.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Dwarves don't have magic, and as such are not being stiffled by its use. Even though Lyrium (which is magic in physical form) is widely used by the Dwarves and everyone else aswell. But then again, why shouldn't it? It obviously have a wide array of application, and Thedosians would be fools not to take advantage of this. It is the reliance on "active magic" that is the problem ie. magic that only mages can do, and need to take part of actively. For instance healing magic. Healing magic and the reliance upon it, will set medical advancement back. There is no discussion on the matter. Often healing magic is also better than anything medical treatment can hope to achieve though.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Dwarves don't have magic, and as such are not being stiffled by its use. Even though Lyrium (which is magic in physical form) is widely used by the Dwarves and everyone else aswell. But then again, why shouldn't it? It obviously have a wide array of application, and Thedosians would be fools not to take advantage of this. It is the reliance on "active magic" that is the problem ie. magic that only mages can do, and need to take part of actively. For instance healing magic. Healing magic and the reliance upon it, will set medical advancement back. There is no discussion on the matter. Often healing magic is also better than anything medical treatment can hope to achieve though.

You bring up a good point about the healers. Now I am curious as to what Qunari medical practices are. Iwonder if they have enough medical knowledge to parallel what healers can do, or if they ever indulge in healing magic at all.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Hazegurl wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Ok heard that i trust person that crushes other peoples hearts literally now judge how that sounds. whether they are not worthy it is rather personal judgement he break his word as well that he betrayed
peoples who protected him and killed them.

Right, it's up to you to determine whether or not those people are worth him keeping his word to. The way I see they are not. And if you meant those Fog Warriors. Yeah it was a crappy thing to do. But he was enslaved and his master had returned.  That would be a cause of suspicion. Would he betray you if confronted by his master? That's a good question to ask.  But he doesn't and I don't see what that would have to do with his account of life in Tevinter.

Fenris is full of hate as
well Anders i don't say don't belive in everything what he says just be
very suspicious now if i bring every thing that anders says about circle i would be probably
be attacked how dear i bring up what anders say when he such biased and
to the some point it is right that same goes for fenris. i don't think
his gone memory is very important whether he is trustworthy or not. 

It's not the fact that you are suspicious that I am disagreeing with. It is your reason.

You chose not to fully believe Fenris because:
He kills people, like you and everyone else.
He betrayed the Fog Warriors
He made promises to people who abused him and broke them
He disagrees with your Pro Mage ideals

imo, I think his memory loss would be a better reason to be suspicious about his account of Tevinter life. He doesn't even remember that he competed to be Danarious' slave.

Well as is said i don't deny everything he says but still he isn't very mental stable person as well anders and when they aren't insane they are rather biased about things they say like responding when hawke try take that slave as servant .Well i m not also pro mage neither pro templar but it is hardly take both seriously when taken to extreme and fenris is on pro-templar side of coin.Still i don't understand why his lost memory is reason that he isn't trustworthy because he speaks about event that happened after he lost his memory am i right? It is better not trust peoples than trust them.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 10 novembre 2013 - 09:07 .

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

I think it's a pity that the DA games have never tried to approach this topic. The gamers center mostly around the danger of abominations or blood mages controlling kings but shy away from questioning how magic may dominate society in other ways or how it stiffled human advancement. The closest it came to was during "Blackpoweder Courtesy" where Hawke can wonder what is the point of having gunpowder when magic can produce the same effect but is reminded that the common man doesn't have magic and that gunpowder can be more easily used.

In a related topic, I hope there will be better dialogue options. DA2 was like a long debate in these forums except I couldn't answer like I wanted to.
Mark of the Assassin fixed this; mostly anyway. The argument with Tallis was better than any with Anders.

MisterJB. Magic is simply to rare for common people to take benefit from. If their is a reason why scientific progress is stiffeld i suggest you look to the chantry. Autopsies are forbidden, critical points of view in history are forbidden  and the univesity of Orlais clashes with chantry dogma. as long as you cannot theorize progress remain limited.

Magic is used widely and in commonly used day-today appliances, such as the Glowstones in Val Royaux. Though that is enchanted items and not "active magic". Still, magically enchanted items are widely used.

Im aware of that but are their any more examples?

[DKJaigen]

Hazegurl wrote...

durasteel wrote...

Merrill never betrays anyone, and when she deals with demons, she does so very carefully. Remember, she told Anders he was an idiot for trusting Justice, because all fade spirits are dangerous. She interacted with a demon once before you met her, and when she tried to do so a second time she took ample precautions. That ended in tragedy because of Marethari, not Merrill.

Right, she never betrays anyone and she's actually much brighter than Anders. Although the fact that she has no issue with talking to demons in the first place is a cause for alarm.

Why should you have an issue with talking with demons? A better question is why you want to talk to demons  .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

DKJaigen wrote...

Im aware of that but are their any more examples?

The enchanted penknife from the Codex, and the sending stones the Circles use. Then there's the fact that the dwarves apparently have magical bathtubs.

[TheKomandorShepard]

DKJaigen wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

durasteel wrote...

Merrill never betrays anyone, and when she deals with demons, she does so very carefully. Remember, she told Anders he was an idiot for trusting Justice, because all fade spirits are dangerous. She interacted with a demon once before you met her, and when she tried to do so a second time she took ample precautions. That ended in tragedy because of Marethari, not Merrill.

Right, she never betrays anyone and she's actually much brighter than Anders. Although the fact that she has no issue with talking to demons in the first place is a cause for alarm.

Why should you have an issue with talking with demons? A better question is why you want to talk to demons  .

Because she is an idiot who makes deal with creatures who can read her like book and are smarter than her much smarter she refuses belive in consequences sure you don't care no problem but you care and think that turning into abomnation won't be consequence that touches others definitely not worth trust.

[Hazegurl]

DKJaigen wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

durasteel wrote...

Merrill never betrays anyone, and when she deals with demons, she does so very carefully. Remember, she told Anders he was an idiot for trusting Justice, because all fade spirits are dangerous. She interacted with a demon once before you met her, and when she tried to do so a second time she took ample precautions. That ended in tragedy because of Marethari, not Merrill.

Right, she never betrays anyone and she's actually much brighter than Anders. Although the fact that she has no issue with talking to demons in the first place is a cause for alarm.

Why should you have an issue with talking with demons? A better question is why you want to talk to demons  .

People who hear out demons usually become abominations. And where did I state that I would want to talk to them?

[Hazegurl]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Dwarves don't have magic, and as such are not being stiffled by its use. Even though Lyrium (which is magic in physical form) is widely used by the Dwarves and everyone else aswell. But then again, why shouldn't it? It obviously have a wide array of application, and Thedosians would be fools not to take advantage of this. It is the reliance on "active magic" that is the problem ie. magic that only mages can do, and need to take part of actively. For instance healing magic. Healing magic and the reliance upon it, will set medical advancement back. There is no discussion on the matter. Often healing magic is also better than anything medical treatment can hope to achieve though.

You bring up a good point about the healers. Now I am curious as to what Qunari medical practices are. Iwonder if they have enough medical knowledge to parallel what healers can do, or if they ever indulge in healing magic at all.

It seems as though the Qunari do have advanced medicine.

http://social.biowar...9770/2#16532235
All the races in Thedas are said to live approximately the same length of natural life, but Qunari have developed advanced medicine and sanitation, which allows them to extend their life span to some degree.[5]
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari

[Hellion Rex]

Hazegurl wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Dwarves don't have magic, and as such are not being stiffled by its use. Even though Lyrium (which is magic in physical form) is widely used by the Dwarves and everyone else aswell. But then again, why shouldn't it? It obviously have a wide array of application, and Thedosians would be fools not to take advantage of this. It is the reliance on "active magic" that is the problem ie. magic that only mages can do, and need to take part of actively. For instance healing magic. Healing magic and the reliance upon it, will set medical advancement back. There is no discussion on the matter. Often healing magic is also better than anything medical treatment can hope to achieve though.

You bring up a good point about the healers. Now I am curious as to what Qunari medical practices are. Iwonder if they have enough medical knowledge to parallel what healers can do, or if they ever indulge in healing magic at all.

It seems as though the Qunari do have advanced medicine.

http://social.biowar...9770/2#16532235
All the races in Thedas are said to live approximately the same length of natural life, but Qunari have developed advanced medicine and sanitation, which allows them to extend their life span to some degree.[5]
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari

But my question is can it equal what healing magic does for the rest of Thedas? Or is healing magic still superior in that regard?

[HiroVoid]

Well, there you go. The dalish have the same length of natural life.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Dwarves don't have magic, and as such are not being stiffled by its use. Even though Lyrium (which is magic in physical form) is widely used by the Dwarves and everyone else aswell. But then again, why shouldn't it? It obviously have a wide array of application, and Thedosians would be fools not to take advantage of this. It is the reliance on "active magic" that is the problem ie. magic that only mages can do, and need to take part of actively. For instance healing magic. Healing magic and the reliance upon it, will set medical advancement back. There is no discussion on the matter. Often healing magic is also better than anything medical treatment can hope to achieve though.

You bring up a good point about the healers. Now I am curious as to what Qunari medical practices are. Iwonder if they have enough medical knowledge to parallel what healers can do, or if they ever indulge in healing magic at all.

It seems as though the Qunari do have advanced medicine.

http://social.biowar...9770/2#16532235
All the races in Thedas are said to live approximately the same length of natural life, but Qunari have developed advanced medicine and sanitation, which allows them to extend their life span to some degree.[5]
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari

But my question is can it equal what healing magic does for the rest of Thedas? Or is healing magic still superior in that regard?

Healing magic can cerainly deal with things like massive physical trauma far more effective than conventional medical treatment can ever hope to achieve. The problem is not in effectiveness, but in reliance. If people remain reliant on the Circle for all their medical and restorative needs, then tehy will never try to edvelop their own means, and as such they will remain reliant upon magic. Therefore magic will stiffle the medical advancement.

[Icy Magebane]

eluvianix wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

It seems as though the Qunari do have advanced medicine.

http://social.biowar...9770/2#16532235
All the races in Thedas are said to live approximately the same length of natural life, but Qunari have developed advanced medicine and sanitation, which allows them to extend their life span to some degree.[5]
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari

But my question is can it equal what healing magic does for the rest of Thedas? Or is healing magic still superior in that regard?

Considering the fact that magic heals you instantly, I'd assume it's better.  Of course, there is no "cure disease" spell that we know of, but diseases and plagues are mainly a byproduct of poor sanitation or lack of refrigeration than anything else...  so that's probably how medicine leads to longer lifespans.  But of course, we then have Avernus, who has been alive for a very long time by using some type of blood magic... so there might be some aspect of magic than can counter disease on some level.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Healing magic can cerainly deal with things like massive physical trauma far more effective than conventional medical treatment can ever hope to achieve. The problem is not in effectiveness, but in reliance. If people remain reliant on the Circle for all their medical and restorative needs, then tehy will never try to edvelop their own means, and as such they will remain reliant upon magic. Therefore magic will stiffle the medical advancement.

Is it not possible that the economic incentive of discovering non-magical healing methods would be enough to motivate scholars?  Assuming the Chantry's ban on anatomical study was lifted, what would prevent normal people from studying, and therefore advancing, medicine?

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 10 novembre 2013 - 10:31 .

[Hazegurl]

eluvianix wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Dwarves don't have magic, and as such are not being stiffled by its use. Even though Lyrium (which is magic in physical form) is widely used by the Dwarves and everyone else aswell. But then again, why shouldn't it? It obviously have a wide array of application, and Thedosians would be fools not to take advantage of this. It is the reliance on "active magic" that is the problem ie. magic that only mages can do, and need to take part of actively. For instance healing magic. Healing magic and the reliance upon it, will set medical advancement back. There is no discussion on the matter. Often healing magic is also better than anything medical treatment can hope to achieve though.

You bring up a good point about the healers. Now I am curious as to what Qunari medical practices are. Iwonder if they have enough medical knowledge to parallel what healers can do, or if they ever indulge in healing magic at all.

It seems as though the Qunari do have advanced medicine.

http://social.biowar...9770/2#16532235
All the races in Thedas are said to live approximately the same length of natural life, but Qunari have developed advanced medicine and sanitation, which allows them to extend their life span to some degree.[5]
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari

But my question is can it equal what healing magic does for the rest of Thedas? Or is healing magic still superior in that regard?

I'm going to go ahead and say that advance medical science is superior to healing magic based on reading the thread in the above link. If healing magic was superior then the Qunari (who do not rely so heavily on magic) wouldn't be doing better than the rest of the world. Advanced medicine has a lot to do with our own expanding life spans so I think it plays a big part for the Qunari as well. IMO, it would seem as if healing magic is simply a matter of convenience more than anything.  

@Icy, I don't think magic heals instantly in every regard. Actually it makes me think that it's more of a gameplay mechanic than anything. Zathrian couldn't heal the wounded hunters in his camp instantly, it took a lot out of Anders to heal that boy in his clinic, and he gave Isabella a salve over instantly curing her STD.  I think there are other instances within the story of magic not healing as fast as it does in the gameplay but I can't remember them all.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 10 novembre 2013 - 10:57 .

[The Elder King]

It should be noted that general population aren't don't have generally access to healing magic. Even most of the nobility probably don't have access to it. Only high-ranking lords and kings have.
Not to mention that healing magic is based on the mage's abilities and skills in the field. While there might be a good number of SH, it's likely that the majority are only decent at it, and only few are master in it. Advanced medicine, which everyone in the Qun would benefit, it's obviously going to improve the life of the population more than healing magic did in Andrastian nation.
I didn't read the last comic, but if I recall Varric's friend stated that the exiled magister would've been able to cure Maric, which from what I gathered was in a really critical condition. Is that true?

Modifié par hhh89, 10 novembre 2013 - 11:04 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

hhh89 wrote...
I didn't read the last comic, but if I recall Varric's friend stated that the exiled magister would've been able to cure Maric, which from what I gathered was in a really critical condition. Is that true?

It is only a suggestion made, to try and keep Alistair hopeful for his father. There is no evidence presented that what was proposed could actually be done.

[Icy Magebane]

Hazegurl wrote...

I'm going to go ahead and say that advance medical science is superior to healing magic based on reading the thread in the above link. If healing magic was superior then the Qunari (who do not rely so heavily on magic) wouldn't be doing better than the rest of the world. Advanced medicine has a lot to do with our own expanding life spans so I think it plays a big part for the Qunari as well. IMO, it would seem as if healing magic is simply a matter of convenience more than anything.  

@Icy, I don't think magic heals instantly in every regard. Actually it makes me think that it's more of a gameplay mechanic than anything. Zathrian couldn't heal the wounded hunters in his camp instantly, it took a lot out of Anders to heal that boy in his clinic, and he gave Isabella a salve over instantly curing her STD.  I think there are other instances within the story of magic not healing as fast as it does in the gameplay but I can't remember them all.

Maybe, but the Dalish were suffering from a magical curse, not a physical malady.  Outside of combat, the descriptions of healing magic in the codex lead me to believe that it's usually instant or at least faster than surgery.  As far as Anders and the boy at the clinic... unfortunately, I don't remember that, so I can't comment.  But the fact that you need medicine to treat an STD shows that science isn't rendered irrelevant by certain types of magic... the two can work side by side, as advanced medicine is still useful for problems that aren't life threatening.

Also, I'd attribute the success of the Qunari to the fact that the rest of Thedas has been in a state of perpetual war for what... 1000 or more years?  Plus, they've never faced the Blight...  you can accomplish a lot when you don't have to waste resources fighting subterranean monsters.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 10 novembre 2013 - 11:19 .

[The Elder King]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
I didn't read the last comic, but if I recall Varric's friend stated that the exiled magister would've been able to cure Maric, which from what I gathered was in a really critical condition. Is that true?

It is only a suggestion made, to try and keep Alistair hopeful for his father. There is no evidence presented that what was proposed could actually be done.

I see. Thanks for the clarification.
It'd still be interesting to meet him. Other than his healing magic skill, I'd like to know more about Tevinter from the perspective of a former magister.

[Hellion Rex]

hhh89 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
I didn't read the last comic, but if I recall Varric's friend stated that the exiled magister would've been able to cure Maric, which from what I gathered was in a really critical condition. Is that true?

It is only a suggestion made, to try and keep Alistair hopeful for his father. There is no evidence presented that what was proposed could actually be done.

I see. Thanks for the clarification.
It'd still be interesting to meet him. Other than his healing magic skill, I'd like to know more about Tevinter from the perspective of a former magister.

If we end up getting that magister Dorian from the survey leak, you might be able to in DAI.

[The Elder King]

I agree with Icy Magebane about the dalish cursed by werevolves. It'd a type of wound impossible to cure in Thedas. As for Anders, we don't know what the boy had, and it's likely that Anders was fired (the scene shown that). Darktown is full of people that live in bad condition, and magic isn't infinite.
Healing magic was shown, at least in the elven variant, to temporarily block the taint in the dalish origin, and for a good aumont of time.

[The Elder King]

@eluvianix: I know. I'm excited to know more about the rest of the party. I hope we get some info early next year.

[Inprea]

@MisterJb

Val-Royeaux is a single powerful wealthy city. Do you really believe that you can claim other lesser cities enjoy the same mystic lights? The fact that they're mentioned seems to mark them as something special rather then indicate the use of such magic items see wide spread use. I never said that making alchemical potions was restricted to mages either. The reason I mentioned it is that alchemy seems to be a well advanced healing science as it were that has progressed despite the presence of magic.

How can you be sure that the technological advantages of the Dwarfs and Qunari aren't a cultural thing and a matter of information? Keep in mind that the dwarfs keep very detailed records of nearly everything. The mages aren't to be blamed for humans poor record keeping. Such preservation of knowledge is bound to benefit technological developments. Also as another person pointed out that smokeless coal is a recent development made by a crazy genius.

Plus both the dwarf and qunari have members of their society who are devoted to their craft and developing it. Do any of the human nations have a group of people they pay in order to develop new technology? The only nation I can think of that would be devoted to research would be the Imperium but that's of course magic research.

You'd think the chantry would at least be putting some gold into finding ways for templars to use lyrium without frying their mind over the decades but I have seen no proof of such research.

You may be right about the scholars I can't be certain. I remember a lot more educated mages though then scholars. The few scholars I do remember seemed more interested in religious matters as well, historians, rathern then developing the sciences. Unless are we counting the dwarf that makes explosives in awakening as a scholar?

Modifié par Inprea, 10 novembre 2013 - 11:43 .