4643 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

hhh89 wrote...

I agree with Icy Magebane about the dalish cursed by werevolves. It'd a type of wound impossible to cure in Thedas. As for Anders, we don't know what the boy had, and it's likely that Anders was fired (the scene shown that). Darktown is full of people that live in bad condition, and magic isn't infinite.
Healing magic was shown, at least in the elven variant, to temporarily block the taint in the dalish origin, and for a good aumont of time.

I'm not referring to the curse but the bloody wounds the elves received, the ones lying on the cots. But then again that could have had something to do with the curse as well.

Anders was just one healing mage and he was pretty much tapped out. What if he got an emergency right after his treatment of the boy? There's just no way he would have been able to save that person's life.  I'm not saying magic and medicine can't work together but I do believe that for medical science to even be able to work with magic, it needs to be developed separate from magic. It needs to be able to stand on it's own.

[Icy Magebane]

Hazegurl wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

I agree with Icy Magebane about the dalish cursed by werevolves. It'd a type of wound impossible to cure in Thedas. As for Anders, we don't know what the boy had, and it's likely that Anders was fired (the scene shown that). Darktown is full of people that live in bad condition, and magic isn't infinite.
Healing magic was shown, at least in the elven variant, to temporarily block the taint in the dalish origin, and for a good aumont of time.

I'm not referring to the curse but the bloody wounds the elves received, the ones lying on the cots. But then again that could have had something to do with the curse as well.

Anders was just one healing mage and he was pretty much tapped out. What if he got an emergency right after his treatment of the boy? There's just no way he would have been able to save that person's life.  I'm not saying magic and medicine can't work together but I do believe that for medical science to even be able to work with magic, it needs to be developed separate from magic. It needs to be able to stand on it's own.

Considering the Orlesian Chantry's stance on medical research, that's not going to happen.  Magic isn't responsible for limiting intellectual freedom and progression in Thedas.

[HiroVoid]

Is there somewhere stating the Orlesian Chantry is against medical research?

[Xilizhra]

Anders was just one healing mage and he was pretty much tapped out.

Not so tapped out that he couldn't immediately flip into battle mode when he thought he was being threatened. He just needed a moment to catch his breath.

[dragonflight288]

HiroVoid wrote...

Is there somewhere stating the Orlesian Chantry is against medical research?

There is, well, they completely ban anatomical studies as they consider it a part of blood magic. I'm looking up the source now.

EDIT: To avoid a double post, I've found the source. Here it is.

To make it easier for those who don't want to read through the page, I'll copy and past the relevent sentences.

The Chantry has gone to great lengths to ban the use of blood magic,
going so far as to suppress anatomical study and condemning its use even
in the face of severe circumstances.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 11 novembre 2013 - 06:30 .

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Anders was just one healing mage and he was pretty much tapped out.

Not so tapped out that he couldn't immediately flip into battle mode when he thought he was being threatened. He just needed a moment to catch his breath.

Partially Justice as well, with the glowing eyes. Justice could surely give him that burst of energy in a pinch if he felt threatened.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Is there somewhere stating the Orlesian Chantry is against medical research?

There is, well, they completely ban anatomical studies as they consider it a part of blood magic. I'm looking up the source now.

i would too like that source. I am not seeing that anywhere.

[dragonflight288]

Put the source up in an edit above.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Put the source up in an edit above.

Fair enough. So the Chantry is to blame.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Put the source up in an edit above.

Fair enough. So the Chantry is to blame.

As far as anatomical studies go and how it's been banned, yes.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Put the source up in an edit above.

Fair enough. So the Chantry is to blame.

As far as anatomical studies go and how it's been banned, yes.

Why am I not surprised. <_<

[HiroVoid]

dragonflight288 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Is there somewhere stating the Orlesian Chantry is against medical research?

There is, well, they completely ban anatomical studies as they consider it a part of blood magic. I'm looking up the source now.

EDIT: To avoid a double post, I've found the source. Here it is.

To make it easier for those who don't want to read through the page, I'll copy and past the relevent sentences.

The Chantry has gone to great lengths to ban the use of blood magic,
going so far as to suppress anatomical study and condemning its use even
in the face of severe circumstances.

Hmm.....yeah.  The source is there, but the source is an item text entry for a book that boots a skill.  I'll accept that, but that's a very loose source that could easily change if the writers ever wanted to have dissections for some reason.

[dragonflight288]

HiroVoid wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Is there somewhere stating the Orlesian Chantry is against medical research?

There is, well, they completely ban anatomical studies as they consider it a part of blood magic. I'm looking up the source now.

EDIT: To avoid a double post, I've found the source. Here it is.

To make it easier for those who don't want to read through the page, I'll copy and past the relevent sentences.

The Chantry has gone to great lengths to ban the use of blood magic,
going so far as to suppress anatomical study and condemning its use even
in the face of severe circumstances.

Hmm.....yeah.  The source is there, but the source is an item text entry for a book that boots a skill.  I'll accept that, but that's a very loose source that could easily change if the writers ever wanted to have dissections for some reason.

True, but as of now, the Chantry is responsible for banning anatomical studies and there is evidence that supports this.

[Icy Magebane]

dragonflight288 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Hmm.....yeah.  The source is there, but the source is an item text entry for a book that boots a skill.  I'll accept that, but that's a very loose source that could easily change if the writers ever wanted to have dissections for some reason.

True, but as of now, the Chantry is responsible for banning anatomical studies and there is evidence that supports this.

Yeah, it's the only place that this is mentioned as far as I know, but it seems legit.  These people are technologically backwards for some reason, and this is as good an explanation as any...  I agree that this is easily overlooked and could be changed without causing too much of a stir.  I don't know how many people have even read that item description...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Icy Magebane wrote...

I don't see magical innovations as stifling scientific research.  If anything, it would give non-mage scholars a greater need to understand technology so that they could compete commercially.  I'm going to spare you all the long list that I was writing to outline some of the possible applications of magic and how they would benefit science.  Instead, let me just point you in the direction of "Ice Generation," which gives civilization access to unlimited amounts of clean water, and "Electrical Generation," which gives scholars/scientists direct access to an energy source with countless industrial applications. 

I'd like to point out that:

a) Mages can't just spam spells forever. Spellcasting drains them and they need to rest.

We're not sure how exactly mages create ice. It could be they use the moisuture/water in the air to create ice, so agian, not unlimited.

c) Being delegated to the job of a human generator is a druggery and I don't think any mage would be happy with it. Not to mention that every time you cast a spell, you open a conduit to draw magic from the Fade, making a mage more vulnerable.

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

I don't see magical innovations as stifling scientific research.  If anything, it would give non-mage scholars a greater need to understand technology so that they could compete commercially.  I'm going to spare you all the long list that I was writing to outline some of the possible applications of magic and how they would benefit science.  Instead, let me just point you in the direction of "Ice Generation," which gives civilization access to unlimited amounts of clean water, and "Electrical Generation," which gives scholars/scientists direct access to an energy source with countless industrial applications. 

I'd like to point out that:

a) Mages can't just spam spells forever. Spellcasting drains them and they need to rest.

We're not sure how exactly mages create ice. It could be they use the moisuture/water in the air to create ice, so agian, not unlimited.

c) Being delegated to the job of a human generator is a druggery and I don't think any mage would be happy with it. Not to mention that every time you cast a spell, you open a conduit to draw magic from the Fade, making a mage more vulnerable.

And if a mage were to sustain a spell for a while, like a battery, that exponentially increases the risks.

Modifié par eluvianix, 11 novembre 2013 - 07:28 .

[HiroVoid]

Icy Magebane wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Hmm.....yeah.  The source is there, but the source is an item text entry for a book that boots a skill.  I'll accept that, but that's a very loose source that could easily change if the writers ever wanted to have dissections for some reason.

True, but as of now, the Chantry is responsible for banning anatomical studies and there is evidence that supports this.

Yeah, it's the only place that this is mentioned as far as I know, but it seems legit.  These people are technologically backwards for some reason, and this is as good an explanation as any...  I agree that this is easily overlooked and could be changed without causing too much of a stir.  I don't know how many people have even read that item description...

Except technologically, that still doesn't support anything.  It says the chantry suppresses anatomic research due to some strange fear of blood magic (even though blood magic research and regular research should be different....).  Looking further into technology shouldn't have anything to do with blood magic and I don't believe I've seen proof otherwise the chantry is suppressing technological research.

It's just that weird setting where writers make a medeival society stay a certain way for a very long time.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
Sadly and in most parts of the world even today, that's in fact accurate.  MPs and Interal Police can't be trusted to police their own.

You saying you don't trust your own police or military? Whom do you trust?

Ironicly, the entire world functions like that - MP's an IP's seem to do a decent job. In some countries better than in others tough.

The part you are missing is accountability.  The
Templars and Seekers need to be accountable for their failures as a
police force and having mages as part of that police force increases
said accountability mainly because it inhibits (not prevents but
inhibits) and "us vs them" mentality.

The templars are accountable to the Seekers.
The Seekers are accountable to the Chantry.
And the Chantry tries to remain impartial.

Not a perfect system, especially since it toally failed in Kirkwall, but for a medieval period, it's very good.

I also note that the recruitment and vetting process for Templars and
Seekers as it stood circa Asunder was absolute rubbish for the job they
were tasked to do.

How do you figure that?

[Icy Magebane]

HiroVoid wrote...
Except technologically, that still doesn't support anything.  It says the chantry suppresses anatomic research due to some strange fear of blood magic (even though blood magic research and regular research should be different....).  Looking further into technology shouldn't have anything to do with blood magic and I don't believe I've seen proof otherwise the chantry is suppressing technological research.

It's just that weird setting where writers make a medeival society stay a certain way for a very long time.

If you can't study the body, how are you supposed to learn anything about medicine?

[dragonflight288]

The templars are accountable to the Seekers.
The Seekers are accountable to the Chantry.
And the Chantry tries to remain impartial.

Not a perfect system, especially since it toally failed in Kirkwall, but for a medieval period, it's very good.

And how does the Chantry ENFORCE it's rules? Through the Seekers and the Templars. If the leaders of those organizations start abusing their power, there's absolutely nothing there to say the Chantry is impartial.

Laws and rights are only effective if only the guilty of committing crimes are punished, and those who abuse their authority are effectively removed. Without consequences, there may as well not be any laws. The Chantry has zero capacity to follow through on punishing its Seekers because the Seekers and Templars are their only (known) tools for handling those things.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Templars and seekers are corrupted and chantry don't care how they threat mages and that will be always in case.

Seekers idea was punish and watch templars but in reality they are templars nothing more at best they are intrested when something is dangerous for chantry da 2 and asunder are best examples of this that they have mages in their back.

Simple it always ends in two ways mages abuse non-mages and non-mages abuse mages.
Only solution is elimnate one side then problem gone as far mages are minority , troublemakers , and easiest way to solve problem by eliminating them.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 11 novembre 2013 - 01:20 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
And how does the Chantry ENFORCE it's rules? Through the Seekers and the Templars. If the leaders of those organizations start abusing their power, there's absolutely nothing there to say the Chantry is impartial.

How does a government enforce it's rules when the military performs a coup?
ANSWER: It doesn't.

There is no perfect system - you either make it effective, but that introduces poitns of potential faliure; OR you make it ineffective, but "safe".

There is a limit to how much you can divide power before it becomes an ineffectual mess. And if you have centralized powers (like kings), you have the danger of a s*** storm if that center gets compromised.

While we're at it, go on a campaign across TheDas to bring down all kingdoms and empires and institute democracy, free market and all that stuff.

Laws and rights are only effective if only the guilty of committing crimes are punished, and those who abuse their authority are effectively removed. Without consequences, there may as well not be any laws. The Chantry has zero capacity to follow through on punishing its Seekers because the Seekers and Templars are their only (known) tools for handling those things.

So let's say the Chantry adds a thors party...the Watchers...who watch the Seekers. What happens when THEY get corrupted?
Do you see the problem?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I also note that the recruitment and vetting process for Templars and
Seekers as it stood circa Asunder was absolute rubbish for the job they
were tasked to do.

How do you figure that?

I think the idea is that it let in Meredith, Alrik, and Lambert. (Carver also shouldn't have been let in, but I don't think that's what Ian was getting at.)

dragonflight288 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Is there somewhere stating the Orlesian Chantry is against medical research?

There is, well, they completely ban anatomical studies as they consider it a part of blood magic. I'm looking up the source now. 

i would too like that source. I am not seeing that anywhere.

It's an item description. The item to boost one of your stats notes that it comes from anatomical studies and that the Chantry isn't okay with this.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 11 novembre 2013 - 02:38 .

[Hazegurl]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Put the source up in an edit above.

Fair enough. So the Chantry is to blame.

As far as anatomical studies go and how it's been banned, yes.

Good find! I agree that this one is the fault of the Chantry. However, it doesn't say they ban it. Just suppress it and condemn it. I'm sure the Chantry itself can't just make a law banning it for every country in Thedas. It seems like it's more of a case of religious folks not bothering to push forward with anatomical research because of the Chantry's views on it. Still the fault of the Chantry for trying to suppress it though.  

[DKJaigen]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Put the source up in an edit above.

Fair enough. So the Chantry is to blame.

As far as anatomical studies go and how it's been banned, yes.

At the same time anatomical studies are foundation of medical science. Medieval sholars first needed to know how a body worked before they could repair it. As long as this is in place this medical science will not advance. 

This is a bit of correlation with the our own medieval church that banned anatomical studies because they where afraid that the soul would fly out of the body.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 11 novembre 2013 - 02:44 .