4643 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The templars are accountable to the Seekers.
The Seekers are accountable to the Chantry.
And the Chantry tries to remain impartial.

Not a perfect system, especially since it toally failed in Kirkwall, but for a medieval period, it's very good.

And how does the Chantry ENFORCE it's rules? Through the Seekers and the Templars. If the leaders of those organizations start abusing their power, there's absolutely nothing there to say the Chantry is impartial.

Laws and rights are only effective if only the guilty of committing crimes are punished, and those who abuse their authority are effectively removed. Without consequences, there may as well not be any laws. The Chantry has zero capacity to follow through on punishing its Seekers because the Seekers and Templars are their only (known) tools for handling those things.

And how do we know the courts of our world are impartial? How do we enforce this? Answer: We don't and we can't. We can only hope that they honor their job and remain impartial, and that if one judge proves to be biased, that the courts will then self-regulate.
At some point down the chain of command, someone will have to be self-regulating. The problem is not that the Chantry has to police itself, the problem is the lack of education and tolerance. If people were better educated about magic, then they would naturally increase their tolerance of it, since they would better understand it. After all you fear what you don't understand, so if the mundanes begun to learn about magic, their increased understanding of the subject would lead to increased tolerance.

[DKJaigen]

Hazegurl wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

durasteel wrote...

Merrill never betrays anyone, and when she deals with demons, she does so very carefully. Remember, she told Anders he was an idiot for trusting Justice, because all fade spirits are dangerous. She interacted with a demon once before you met her, and when she tried to do so a second time she took ample precautions. That ended in tragedy because of Marethari, not Merrill.

Right, she never betrays anyone and she's actually much brighter than Anders. Although the fact that she has no issue with talking to demons in the first place is a cause for alarm.

Why should you have an issue with talking with demons? A better question is why you want to talk to demons  .

People who hear out demons usually become abominations. And where did I state that I would want to talk to them?

This is a problem with a lot of templar supporters. As long as you do not understand these demons the problems of abominations will continue to exist . Dangerous as it is this is necessary and if the chantry doesnt wish to bear this responsibility then sombody else need to talk to them. but it does make the chantry unfit to govern the mages.

[TK514]

DKJaigen wrote...

This is a problem with a lot of templar supporters. As long as you do not understand these demons the problems of abominations will continue to exist . Dangerous as it is this is necessary and if the chantry doesnt wish to bear this responsibility then sombody else need to talk to them. but it does make the chantry unfit to govern the mages.

I think they're pretty well understood at this point.  They aren't exactly keeping what they want and why a secret.

In fact, most, if not all, the higher order demons we've interacted with so far have been pretty open and forthcoming about what they want.  The lower order demons seem to have the intellect and conversational skills of a rabid bear.  Not a lot of conversational understanding going to be found there.

[Angrywolves]

If they're psychos like Meredith, no.
If they're like Greigor, or the Templars in Lothering, then my Inquisitor can have peaceful dealings with them, and I hope they will join my Inquisitor's efforts.

[Hazegurl]

DKJaigen wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

durasteel wrote...

Merrill never betrays anyone, and when she deals with demons, she does so very carefully. Remember, she told Anders he was an idiot for trusting Justice, because all fade spirits are dangerous. She interacted with a demon once before you met her, and when she tried to do so a second time she took ample precautions. That ended in tragedy because of Marethari, not Merrill.

Right, she never betrays anyone and she's actually much brighter than Anders. Although the fact that she has no issue with talking to demons in the first place is a cause for alarm.

Why should you have an issue with talking with demons? A better question is why you want to talk to demons  .

People who hear out demons usually become abominations. And where did I state that I would want to talk to them?

This is a problem with a lot of templar supporters. As long as you do not understand these demons the problems of abominations will continue to exist . Dangerous as it is this is necessary and if the chantry doesnt wish to bear this responsibility then sombody else need to talk to them. but it does make the chantry unfit to govern the mages.

What?? lol! your first post asked why would I have an issue with talking to demons, then you ask why would I want to talk to them, now you're saying people should talk to them. 

And no, people should not talk to demons. it's not just a Templar supporter thing, I'm sure most people realize that talking to demons will get you in a world of trouble. They typically are just out to manipulate, control, and escape into the real world via your body. Yeah, they may have rewards to offer, but seriously, talking to them will really grant you nothing in the end unless you plan to sacrifice yourself or someone else.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The templars are accountable to the Seekers.
The Seekers are accountable to the Chantry.
And the Chantry tries to remain impartial.

Not a perfect system, especially since it toally failed in Kirkwall, but for a medieval period, it's very good.

And how does the Chantry ENFORCE it's rules? Through the Seekers and the Templars. If the leaders of those organizations start abusing their power, there's absolutely nothing there to say the Chantry is impartial.

Laws and rights are only effective if only the guilty of committing crimes are punished, and those who abuse their authority are effectively removed. Without consequences, there may as well not be any laws. The Chantry has zero capacity to follow through on punishing its Seekers because the Seekers and Templars are their only (known) tools for handling those things.

And how do we know the courts of our world are impartial? How do we enforce this? Answer: We don't and we can't. We can only hope that they honor their job and remain impartial, and that if one judge proves to be biased, that the courts will then self-regulate.
At some point down the chain of command, someone will have to be self-regulating. The problem is not that the Chantry has to police itself, the problem is the lack of education and tolerance. If people were better educated about magic, then they would naturally increase their tolerance of it, since they would better understand it. After all you fear what you don't understand, so if the mundanes begun to learn about magic, their increased understanding of the subject would lead to increased tolerance.

So the logical thing to do is increase people's education, and immersion with magic, like letting mages who are fully trained go free of the Circle to help out in various towns, maybe settle in an area with a garrison of Templars they check in with each week would help.

But I disagree with part of what you said. The Chantry policing itself is a very real part of the problem in that many of its templars and seekers truly and genuinely believe they are above secular law. See Ser Rylock in Awakening, Lambert and his belief in how much authority the Divine had over him near the end of Asunder, and Meredith in Kirkwall. And when those individuals take charge, it corrupts the system, and soon you end up where the templars and seekers are now. With next to no oversight or accountability.

If the templars and seekers were held accountable, that would be a very much large improvement of the Circle overall, may be even large enough to appease several mage supporters, but so long as the Chantry and its agents police themselves, and its zealots rise in the ranks, that will not be true. So the Chantry policing itself and not holding its own accountable is indeed a very real problem with the current system.

[dragonflight288]

Hazegurl wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Put the source up in an edit above.

Fair enough. So the Chantry is to blame.

As far as anatomical studies go and how it's been banned, yes.

Good find! I agree that this one is the fault of the Chantry. However, it doesn't say they ban it. Just suppress it and condemn it. I'm sure the Chantry itself can't just make a law banning it for every country in Thedas. It seems like it's more of a case of religious folks not bothering to push forward with anatomical research because of the Chantry's views on it. Still the fault of the Chantry for trying to suppress it though.  

Thanks, and good point.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

So the logical thing to do is increase people's education, and immersion with magic, like letting mages who are fully trained go free of the Circle to help out in various towns, maybe settle in an area with a garrison of Templars they check in with each week would help.

Perhaps. But not now. The increased education of the populace is a slow pocess, and it would take many generations for the general education level of the commoners to be of high enough standards for them to accept mages. But yes, it is a worthy goal to work towards. But until it has been achieved the mages must confine themselves to their Circles.

dragonflight288 wrote...

But I disagree with part of what you said. The Chantry policing itself is a very real part of the problem in that many of its templars and seekers truly and genuinely believe they are above secular law. See Ser Rylock in Awakening, Lambert and his belief in how much authority the Divine had over him near the end of Asunder, and Meredith in Kirkwall. And when those individuals take charge, it corrupts the system, and soon you end up where the templars and seekers are now. With next to no oversight or accountability. 

The Chantry are suppsoed to oversee the Templars and Seekers. That corrupt individuals have achieved high ranks within the organization does not mean the system doesn't work. It simply means that this individual is casuing it to fail. Again, the prejudice that many feels towards mages would disappear over generations of education, so this entire problem would also disappear through time.

dragonflight288 wrote...

If the templars and seekers were held accountable, that would be a very much large improvement of the Circle overall, may be even large enough to appease several mage supporters, but so long as the Chantry and its agents police themselves, and its zealots rise in the ranks, that will not be true. So the Chantry policing itself and not holding its own accountable is indeed a very real problem with the current system.

The Templars and Seekers are suppsoed to be held accountable for their actions. There is a reason that Templars always feared Seeker involvement. The problem arise when someone like Lambert who would make a far better Templar than Seeker, gets to be High Seeker.
It should also be noted that the Templars have had loose reins for the past few years, because they were able to manipulate the previous Divine in her old age, to allow them to be more severe to the mages, without the scrutiny of the Chantry.

[dragonflight288]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

So the logical thing to do is increase people's education, and immersion with magic, like letting mages who are fully trained go free of the Circle to help out in various towns, maybe settle in an area with a garrison of Templars they check in with each week would help.[/quote]
Perhaps. But not now. The increased education of the populace is a slow pocess, and it would take many generations for the general education level of the commoners to be of high enough standards for them to accept mages. But yes, it is a worthy goal to work towards. But until it has been achieved the mages must confine themselves to their Circles.[/quote]

It is a worthy goal. I disagree on the timeline it would take as I don't think it would take generations. I look at the Ferelden refugees who were willing to gve their lives to protect Anders in Act 1, I look at Kester who ran the boat on Lake Calenhad who said "The Maker made mages for a reason. If you can't trust him, who can you trust?"

I agree that it would take time and effort, but I think it can be done in a matter of years, maybe even decades in the more anti-mage areas. And some places actually may take generations. But it also depends on the areas. Places like Ferelden, Rivain, the Anderfels (where the Wardens practically run the country,) or maybe even Nevarra to a lesser extent....and possibly Antiva with the Crows and all, would be far more open to to faster changes than places like Orlais and the Free Marches.

[quote][quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

But I disagree with part of what you said. The Chantry policing itself is a very real part of the problem in that many of its templars and seekers truly and genuinely believe they are above secular law. See Ser Rylock in Awakening, Lambert and his belief in how much authority the Divine had over him near the end of Asunder, and Meredith in Kirkwall. And when those individuals take charge, it corrupts the system, and soon you end up where the templars and seekers are now. With next to no oversight or accountability. [/quote]
The Chantry are suppsoed to oversee the Templars and Seekers. That corrupt individuals have achieved high ranks within the organization does not mean the system doesn't work. It simply means that this individual is casuing it to fail. Again, the prejudice that many feels towards mages would disappear over generations of education, so this entire problem would also disappear through time.

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

If the templars and seekers were held accountable, that would be a very much large improvement of the Circle overall, may be even large enough to appease several mage supporters, but so long as the Chantry and its agents police themselves, and its zealots rise in the ranks, that will not be true. So the Chantry policing itself and not holding its own accountable is indeed a very real problem with the current system. [/quote]
The Templars and Seekers are suppsoed to be held accountable for their actions. There is a reason that Templars always feared Seeker involvement. The problem arise when someone like Lambert who would make a far better Templar than Seeker, gets to be High Seeker.
It should also be noted that the Templars have had loose reins for the past few years, because they were able to manipulate the previous Divine in her old age, to allow them to be more severe to the mages, without the scrutiny of the Chantry.[/quote][/quote]

And therin lies the corrupting influence of policing your own. And when the Divine in Asunder did try to give more rights to the mages, by that point the templars and seekers had become so accustomed to their power that many of them actually wanted her assassinated and replaced with another Divine who is closer to their own views. And when the Chantry decided peacefully acknowledge the Circle's right to declare Independence, those same templars and seekers decided to leave the Chantry themselves as they couldn't handle it.

On the other hand, in Inquisition, the mages now are no longer controlled by the Templars and the Chantry, so whatever they do as a group from this point on can be placed strictly and soley on their heads alone. There won't be hiding behind Chantry doctrine or templar abuses for what they do now. After DA2, I will now hold the mages to the exact same high standard I've held the templars.

If the mages prove they are incapable of managing their own affairs now, I will put them back in a Circle myself, and set the Inquisition up as a way to oversee the Templars and Seekers and I won't care what the Chantry says, they won't control the Inquisitors.

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

It is a worthy goal. I disagree on the timeline it would take as I don't think it would take generations. I look at the Ferelden refugees who were willing to gve their lives to protect Anders in Act 1, I look at Kester who ran the boat on Lake Calenhad who said "The Maker made mages for a reason. If you can't trust him, who can you trust?"

I agree that it would take time and effort, but I think it can be done in a matter of years, maybe even decades in the more anti-mage areas. And some places actually may take generations. But it also depends on the areas. Places like Ferelden, Rivain, the Anderfels (where the Wardens practically run the country,) or maybe even Nevarra to a lesser extent....and possibly Antiva with the Crows and all, would be far more open to to faster changes than places like Orlais and the Free Marches.[/quote]
That seems highly optimistic to the point of naivety. Consdiering that we in our day and age like to see ourselves as enlightened and open-minded individuals, we are STILL struggling with several generations of anti-semitic, anti-homosexual and racism on large scales. These things will not go away within the generation, and not the next either. It is a process that has taken several generations already, and this process has not even started yet on Thedas.
I can agree that my viewpoint might be highly pessimistic to the point of cynicism. But that just means that the truth lies somewhere in between I suppose.

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
And therin lies the corrupting influence of policing your own. And when the Divine in Asunder did try to give more rights to the mages, by that point the templars and seekers had become so accustomed to their power that many of them actually wanted her assassinated and replaced with another Divine who is closer to their own views. And when the Chantry decided peacefully acknowledge the Circle's right to declare Independence, those same templars and seekers decided to leave the Chantry themselves as they couldn't handle it.

On the other hand, in Inquisition, the mages now are no longer controlled by the Templars and the Chantry, so whatever they do as a group from this point on can be placed strictly and soley on their heads alone. There won't be hiding behind Chantry doctrine or templar abuses for what they do now. After DA2, I will now hold the mages to the exact same high standard I've held the templars.

If the mages prove they are incapable of managing their own affairs now, I will put them back in a Circle myself, and set the Inquisition up as a way to oversee the Templars and Seekers and I won't care what the Chantry says, they won't control the Inquisitors.
[/quote][/quote]
That is not entirely true. The Chantry NEVER wanted to allow the Circle their freedom. The Chantry was never even given the choice on the matter. The Divine wanted the mages to be allowed to host their conclave, she never expressed any support for the vote of secession. The Templars and Seeker left the Chantry because the Divine had obstructed them in performing their duty. The Templars did not leave because the Chantry supported mage freedom, but because the Divine had betrayed them.
And here is where we are different. I don't think that you are ever to be held to a different standard, just because you circumstances are different. I will always think that you have a moral obligation, no matter your situation, to be the best person you can be. Being an oppressed minority does not free you from this obligation.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 11 novembre 2013 - 07:34 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
At some point down the chain of command, someone will have to be self-regulating. The problem is not that the Chantry has to police itself, the problem is the lack of education and tolerance. If people were better educated about magic, then they would naturally increase their tolerance of it, since they would better understand it. After all you fear what you don't understand, so if the mundanes begun to learn about magic, their increased understanding of the subject would lead to increased tolerance.

I'm not so sure it's that simple.

After all, even if I understand exactly how a nuclear bomb or a bilogical viral agent work, that doesn't mean I want them any more close to myself.
Why do people keep repeating the "people only hate mages because they do not understand magic" schtik? When it truth, it coudl have the opposite effect - people knowing exactly just how insidious magic cane be could make them even mroe hostile.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
At some point down the chain of command, someone will have to be self-regulating. The problem is not that the Chantry has to police itself, the problem is the lack of education and tolerance. If people were better educated about magic, then they would naturally increase their tolerance of it, since they would better understand it. After all you fear what you don't understand, so if the mundanes begun to learn about magic, their increased understanding of the subject would lead to increased tolerance.

I'm not so sure it's that simple.

After all, even if I understand exactly how a nuclear bomb or a bilogical viral agent work, that doesn't mean I want them any more close to myself.
Why do people keep repeating the "people only hate mages because they do not understand magic" schtik? When it truth, it coudl have the opposite effect - people knowing exactly just how insidious magic cane be could make them even mroe hostile.

No, but education might help you understand that not every nuclear plant is a potential nuclear bomb.

[Lotion Soronarr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
No, but education might help you understand that not every nuclear plant is a potential nuclear bomb.

Actually it is.
Well, not a nuclear bomb, but a potential meltdown site, which isn't much better.
Just ask the rusians at Chernobyl

[Xilizhra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
No, but education might help you understand that not every nuclear plant is a potential nuclear bomb.

Actually it is.
Well, not a nuclear bomb, but a potential meltdown site, which isn't much better.
Just ask the rusians at Chernobyl

Chernobyl only came about because of a huge, frankly ridiculous number of either missed or flat-out ignored safety issues. That is not a typical result for a nuclear power plant (Three Mile Island, for instance, released effectively no radiation).

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

You're not listening. The only safe nuclear plant can be imagined to be made 1 km underground. Any nuclear plant on the surface can be dangerous after any serious malfunction (then meltdown and explosion).

[dragonflight288]

Kaiser Arian wrote...

You're not listening. The only safe nuclear plant can be imagined to be made 1 km underground. Any nuclear plant on the surface can be dangerous after any serious malfunction (then meltdown and explosion).

No one's talking about nuclear power.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Kaiser Arian wrote...

You're not listening. The only safe nuclear plant can be imagined to be made 1 km underground. Any nuclear plant on the surface can be dangerous after any serious malfunction (then meltdown and explosion).

No one's talking about nuclear power.

Xil and Lotion are.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Kaiser Arian wrote...

You're not listening. The only safe nuclear plant can be imagined to be made 1 km underground. Any nuclear plant on the surface can be dangerous after any serious malfunction (then meltdown and explosion).

Nuclear power plants don't just "explode".... And modern power plants have so many safeguards that for it to cause any serious harm, would have to be the result of a catastrophe, which itself would probably still cause more harm than the nuclear power plant.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Kaiser Arian wrote...

You're not listening. The only safe nuclear plant can be imagined to be made 1 km underground. Any nuclear plant on the surface can be dangerous after any serious malfunction (then meltdown and explosion).

No one's talking about nuclear power.

Xil and Lotion are.

Oh. Woops.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
No, but education might help you understand that not every nuclear plant is a potential nuclear bomb.

Actually it is.
Well, not a nuclear bomb, but a potential meltdown site, which isn't much better.
Just ask the rusians at Chernobyl

Apparently there's one at my school that literally cannot explode. (Which is not to say I'm entirely sure how I feel about having one there.)

[EmperorSahlertz]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
No, but education might help you understand that not every nuclear plant is a potential nuclear bomb.

Actually it is.
Well, not a nuclear bomb, but a potential meltdown site, which isn't much better.
Just ask the rusians at Chernobyl

Apparently there's one at my school that literally cannot explode. (Which is not to say I'm entirely sure how I feel about having one there.)

Nuclear power plants in general cannot blow up. They can be blown up of course, but the plant itself is not going to explode by itself. Ever. I'm referring here to atomic blasts. There might actually be build up hydrogen during ameltdown event, which could ignite and explode. But needless to say, such minor explosions are a far cry from a nuclear explosion, and in these events the meltdown itself is by far the greater danger anyway.
SImply put the very idea of a nuclear power plant being a potential nuclear bomb is a myth. It simply can't happen.

[MisterJB]

Anders should get an award for the most pointless manifesto ever.
"The opression of mages stems from the fears of men and not the will of the Maker."

Thanks for pointing out the obvious. And the measures employed stems from the need for security and not to please some god.
The existence; or not; of the Maker is entirely irrelevant.

Modifié par MisterJB, 12 novembre 2013 - 08:42 .

[Medhia Nox]

@MisterJB: You read his manifesto? I'm disappointed in you.

[MisterJB]

I was out of toilet paper and I like having something to read while attending to nature's business.
It was a 2 in 1 deal.

[Medhia Nox]

Ah, I see. Turns out I didn't have time to read it - it was a spicy dinner.