4643 réponses à ce sujet

[billy the squid]

Wulfram wrote...

You'd need to kill all their relatives if you wanted it to be "final".  And if you didn't, then you'd be dooming the world to constant conflict - if the mages who are born into the world are only given the choices of "Fight or die", then they'll fight.

No reason for that yet. The system would still work the same as it did now, the children would be taken to the circles and evacuated, the family would not be burdened with such knowledge. It's not advertised obviously, so there is no fighting constantly, society is being re orientated from the chaotic system it currently has in place.

Modifié par billy the squid, 14 novembre 2013 - 01:10 .

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Sounds like a plan. Step two....summon one of the legendary Greater Pride Demons?

Assuming they're not apocryphal, perhaps. But we should probably learn more about despair demons.

Oh, I like the way you think Xil. That is one demon that I am very interested in learning about.

Whatever ritual is done there... it should probably be done in Par Vollen; if they really are that dangerous, they should be useful in neutralizing the qunari, which will be necessary in order to free up Tevinter for this fight.

Ah, good plan. Knock out the Qunari to free our brethren in Tevinter from that endless fight.
Edit: Should we then crush Orlais with Tevinter on our side? I believe they would have a bone to pick with our friends in Val Royeaux.

Modifié par eluvianix, 14 novembre 2013 - 01:12 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


So its better to simply kill all templars and advance magical research to prevent future abominations.  

Yes. The problem however here in this debate is once again the idiotic and stupid mage vs templar debate. I dont give a **** about the mage vs templar conflict. You percieve this entire thing through the modern lens. But you need to view it through a lens where humans are an endangerd species that need to fend of threats that are superhuman.

How are the templar going to fight this demonic invasion? sentient darkspawn? dragon flights? super mages like flemeth? the answer is: they cannot, they lack the knowledge and the skill to do so.

So your entire reason so support the templars is a lie and a sham. the templars cannot defend the mundanes, not even from the circle mages, and it would do thedas good if these fakes and liars where permantly removed. And if you dont then its game over or the tevinters or any other more sensible group will take over.

Will many people die? oh yes. But thats better then being extinct.

Mundanes hunted dragons to near extinction without a problem. The first Grey Wardens weren't mages, and it would seem according to WoT that all mages ever do for the Joinning is just make it more edible (woop-di-doo). So dragons and darkspawn aren't going to be a problem, and mundanes have handled demons just fine for the past 900 years. So, yea... Your übermenchen aren't exactly über and are only needed as an advantage, not a necessity.

[Xilizhra]

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Sounds like a plan. Step two....summon one of the legendary Greater Pride Demons?

Assuming they're not apocryphal, perhaps. But we should probably learn more about despair demons.

Oh, I like the way you think Xil. That is one demon that I am very interested in learning about.

Whatever ritual is done there... it should probably be done in Par Vollen; if they really are that dangerous, they should be useful in neutralizing the qunari, which will be necessary in order to free up Tevinter for this fight.

Ah, good plan. Knock out the Qunari to free our brethren in Tevinter from that endless fight.
Edit: Should we then crush Orlais with Tevinter on our side? I believe they would have a bone to pick with our friends in Val Royeaux.

War would take us there eventually, indeed.

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

The demon doesn't just go away, so how would they?

That's why you kill the demon.

What you are talking about is impossible. Not without killing the mage as well.

To other, there is no way to kill off mages. It's not completely genetic. 

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


So its better to simply kill all templars and advance magical research to prevent future abominations.  

Yes. The problem however here in this debate is once again the idiotic and stupid mage vs templar debate. I dont give a **** about the mage vs templar conflict. You percieve this entire thing through the modern lens. But you need to view it through a lens where humans are an endangerd species that need to fend of threats that are superhuman.

How are the templar going to fight this demonic invasion? sentient darkspawn? dragon flights? super mages like flemeth? the answer is: they cannot, they lack the knowledge and the skill to do so.

So your entire reason so support the templars is a lie and a sham. the templars cannot defend the mundanes, not even from the circle mages, and it would do thedas good if these fakes and liars where permantly removed. And if you dont then its game over or the tevinters or any other more sensible group will take over.

Will many people die? oh yes. But thats better then being extinct.

Mundanes hunted dragons to near extinction without a problem. The first Grey Wardens weren't mages, and it would seem according to WoT that all mages ever do for the Joinning is just make it more edible (woop-di-doo). So dragons and darkspawn aren't going to be a problem, and mundanes have handled demons just fine for the past 900 years. So, yea... Your übermenchen aren't exactly über and are only needed as an advantage, not a necessity.

Is the bolded a definite thing? I have no WoT, so I am woefully in the dark on some of these things. But having mages in the Grey Wardens surely doesn't hurt though right?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Br3ad wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

The demon doesn't just go away, so how would they?

That's why you kill the demon.

What you are talking about is impossible. Not without killing the mage as well.

To other, there is no way to kill off mages. It's not completely genetic. 

Why there is no way to kill off mages are they immortal or something?

[Xilizhra]

Br3ad wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

The demon doesn't just go away, so how would they?

That's why you kill the demon.

What you are talking about is impossible. Not without killing the mage as well.

To other, there is no way to kill off mages. It's not completely genetic. 

What are you talking about? You kill the demon before it enters the mage.

[HiroVoid]

But what if the demon just possesses the mage like a person in a sword duel just suddenly stabs the person in the stomach?

[Xilizhra]

HiroVoid wrote...

But what if the demon just possesses the mage like a person in a sword duel just suddenly stabs the person in the stomach?

Be prepared to act sooner rather than later.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


So its better to simply kill all templars and advance magical research to prevent future abominations.  

Yes. The problem however here in this debate is once again the idiotic and stupid mage vs templar debate. I dont give a **** about the mage vs templar conflict. You percieve this entire thing through the modern lens. But you need to view it through a lens where humans are an endangerd species that need to fend of threats that are superhuman.

How are the templar going to fight this demonic invasion? sentient darkspawn? dragon flights? super mages like flemeth? the answer is: they cannot, they lack the knowledge and the skill to do so.

So your entire reason so support the templars is a lie and a sham. the templars cannot defend the mundanes, not even from the circle mages, and it would do thedas good if these fakes and liars where permantly removed. And if you dont then its game over or the tevinters or any other more sensible group will take over.

Will many people die? oh yes. But thats better then being extinct.

Mundanes hunted dragons to near extinction without a problem. The first Grey Wardens weren't mages, and it would seem according to WoT that all mages ever do for the Joinning is just make it more edible (woop-di-doo). So dragons and darkspawn aren't going to be a problem, and mundanes have handled demons just fine for the past 900 years. So, yea... Your übermenchen aren't exactly über and are only needed as an advantage, not a necessity.

Is the bolded a definite thing? I have no WoT, so I am woefully in the dark on some of these things. But having mages in the Grey Wardens surely doesn't hurt though right?

That's what one of the sources say. But yes having a mage at your side as a Grey Warden will advantage. Mostly anyway.

[Darkwingduck]

I was on the new playstation App and was looking through the trophy list because it assigns a percentage to each trophy so out of the number of people who have played the game what percentage of players earned that trophy. Long story short the number for siding with the templars five times was 3.4% I mean siding with the mages was only 35.1% but still 3.4 is really low and I think it has a lot to do with how Bioware presents the templars. It makes them almost as a whole seem like zealots and I think if they just scaled back the extremism of the Templar side they wold be more popular than 3.4%

[Xilizhra]

It makes them almost as a whole seem like zealots and I think if they just scaled back the extremism of the Templar side they wold be more popular than 3.4%

The Red/Chantry split is perfect for this.

[TheKomandorShepard]

LoL 35 % so peoples are that naive or just did many pt?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Except that the point of the Harrowing is to determine how threatening the demons are, relative to the mage being tested. A mage who failed his Harrowing has proven that those demons are dangerous enough to threaten them. The fact that the demons don't become any more threatening due to this (though I'll note that the damage to the mage's morale will be counterproductive) doesn't really make the apprentice any better off.

Then... they train to grow stronger?

And if something happens while they're training?

Xilizhra wrote...

Whatever ritual is done there... it should probably be done in Par Vollen; if they really are that dangerous, they should be useful in neutralizing the qunari, which will be necessary in order to free up Tevinter for this fight.

While I've accused you and other pro-mages of underestimating abominations in the past, I think asserting that one magical research lab gone wrong can take down the Qunari is really pushing it.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 14 novembre 2013 - 02:09 .

[Xilizhra]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Except that the point of the Harrowing is to determine how threatening the demons are, relative to the mage being tested. A mage who failed his Harrowing has proven that those demons are dangerous enough to threaten them. The fact that the demons don't become any more threatening due to this (though I'll note that the damage to the mage's morale will be counterproductive) doesn't really make the apprentice any better off.

Then... they train to grow stronger?

And if something happens while they're training?

Why would it be more likely than before?

[Darkwingduck]

Bioware is a special company. They make the mages appear really sympathetic but when you side with them every mage you come across is like oh snap I got a paper cut better go full demon (never go full demon) and become their own worst enemies. But the Templars from the outside sort of appear as abusive overlords and perhaps people push their own views of the corrupt Catholic church onto the Templars. I delayed doing their Templar siding for a while but once you're in it, it doesn't seem as bad as it does from the outside.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Except that the point of the Harrowing is to determine how threatening the demons are, relative to the mage being tested. A mage who failed his Harrowing has proven that those demons are dangerous enough to threaten them. The fact that the demons don't become any more threatening due to this (though I'll note that the damage to the mage's morale will be counterproductive) doesn't really make the apprentice any better off.

Then... they train to grow stronger?

And if something happens while they're training?

Why would it be more likely than before?

It wouldn't need to be. The point of the Harrowing is to see how likely it already is. A failed Harrowing means that there is a relatively significant chance already. (As I've pointed out.)

Besides, a failed Harrowing will be a morale blow. And demons react to emotions. Hint hint.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 14 novembre 2013 - 02:10 .

[Hellion Rex]

Darkwingduck wrote...

Bioware is a special company. They make the mages appear really sympathetic but when you side with them every mage you come across is like oh snap I got a paper cut better go full demon (never go full demon) and become their own worst enemies. But the Templars from the outside sort of appear as abusive overlords and perhaps people push their own views of the corrupt Catholic church onto the Templars. I delayed doing their Templar siding for a while but once you're in it, it doesn't seem as bad as it does from the outside.

That is an extremely ridiculous generalization.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Darkwingduck wrote...

I was on the new playstation App and was looking through the trophy list because it assigns a percentage to each trophy so out of the number of people who have played the game what percentage of players earned that trophy. Long story short the number for siding with the templars five times was 3.4% I mean siding with the mages was only 35.1% but still 3.4 is really low and I think it has a lot to do with how Bioware presents the templars. It makes them almost as a whole seem like zealots and I think if they just scaled back the extremism of the Templar side they wold be more popular than 3.4%

I honestly still think that could be mostly because of the way Bioware constructed the final decision. The circumstances of the Last Straw specifically are stacked very heavily in favor of the side ofmage sympathy. Unecessarily so.

Also five times is a lot. I've only even completed the game three times.

[Xilizhra]

It wouldn't need to be. The point of the Harrowing is to see how likely it already is. A failed Harrowing means that there is a relatively significant chance already. (As I've pointed out.)

Then it's time to do more work.

Besides, a failed Harrowing will be a morale blow. And demons react to emotions. Hint hint.

Bolstering them might be tricky, but it's vital.

I honestly still think that could be mostly because of the way Bioware constructed the final decision. The circumstances of the Last Straw specifically are stacked very heavily in favor of the side ofmage sympathy. Unecessarily so.

Necessarily so. They need to counterbalance any invalid bias coming from renegade mage issues coming from further up, and it's a good look into the Templar Order's rationale as a whole.

[Darkwingduck]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Darkwingduck wrote...

I was on the new playstation App and was looking through the trophy list because it assigns a percentage to each trophy so out of the number of people who have played the game what percentage of players earned that trophy. Long story short the number for siding with the templars five times was 3.4% I mean siding with the mages was only 35.1% but still 3.4 is really low and I think it has a lot to do with how Bioware presents the templars. It makes them almost as a whole seem like zealots and I think if they just scaled back the extremism of the Templar side they wold be more popular than 3.4%

I honestly still think that could be mostly because of the way Bioware constructed the final decision. The circumstances of the Last Straw specifically are stacked very heavily in favor of the side ofmage sympathy. Unecessarily so.

Also five times is a lot. I've only even completed the game three times.

To Clarify. The five times refers to five pro templar decisions in a single playthrough so turning the mages over to the templars is one, siding with Meredeth when her and Orsino are publicly arguing is another etc. etc. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

It wouldn't need to be. The point of the Harrowing is to see how likely it already is. A failed Harrowing means that there is a relatively significant chance already. (As I've pointed out.)

Then it's time to do more work.

Except that according to the Codex entry "Journal of The Tranqul" there are mages who simply can't reach that level. (This is written by one of those mages, not by the Chantry.)

Besides, a failed Harrowing will be a morale blow. And demons react to emotions. Hint hint.

Bolstering them might be tricky, but it's vital.

It isn't vital. There's already an alternative. It's dirty business, but less complicated than trying to "bolster" someone who just almost turned into a monster.

I honestly still think that could be mostly because of the way Bioware constructed the final decision. The circumstances of the Last Straw specifically are stacked very heavily in favor of the side ofmage sympathy. Unecessarily so.

Necessarily so. They need to counterbalance any invalid bias coming from renegade mage issues coming from further up, and it's a good look into the Templar Order's rationale as a whole.

Not really. As Gaider has already pointed out, most Western players will by default side with the mages, who they perceive (not without reason) as oppressed. Besides which Meredith is not representative of the Chantry by this point: if she lived she would probably have been fired for this. At least.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 14 novembre 2013 - 02:41 .

[Xilizhra]

Except that according to the Codex entry "Journal of The Tranqul" there are mages who simply can't reach that level. (This is written by one of those mages, not by the Chantry.)

Then they may choose Tranquility if they feel it necessary.

It isn't vital. There's already an alternative. It's dirty business, but less complicated than trying to "bolster" someone who just almost turned into a monster.

Dirty does not mean necessary.

Not really. As Gaider has already pointed out, most Western players will by default side with the mages, who they perceive as oppressed. Besides which Meredith is not representative of the Chantry by this point: if she lived she would probably have been fired for this. At least.

Well, the mages are oppressed, so that's really no surprise. Either way, I think the presentation was fine.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Except that according to the Codex entry "Journal of The Tranqul" there are mages who simply can't reach that level. (This is written by one of those mages, not by the Chantry.)

Then they may choose Tranquility if they feel it necessary.

And if some who should choose it don't?

It isn't vital. There's already an alternative. It's dirty business, but less complicated than trying to "bolster" someone who just almost turned into a monster.

Dirty does not mean necessary.

Or unthinkable. It's worth avoiding if there are alternatives. Yours, however, just seems like it's introducing too many extra failure points without cooresponding fail-safes.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 14 novembre 2013 - 02:48 .