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[DRTJR]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Ummm... that first video makes him completely guilty in my eyes.

He said he never "used" blood magic prior to that moment - he said he "put aside Quentin's research as too dangerous" so he clearly knew about what Quentin was doing - he also says he knew Quentin and, more importantly, purposefuly kept him secret.

You don't keep mages secret that aren't doing anything wrong.

I think it was more Orsino was willfully blind of the specifics of Quentin's experiments, since I am guessing he was a good friend before going off the deep end.

[Medhia Nox]

Yeah, a good friend actually asked me once what I would do if he ever killed someone (the reasons why are not important for this discussion).

I said: Turn your ass in.

Sorry, I don't consort with murderers and I don't excuse accomplices on the grounds of "friendship".

[The Flying Grey Warden]

eluvianix wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

She seemed to actually like it in the gallows though. And at least hawke isn't ruining his families life by forcing them to hide for his own sake, which he then does nothing to try and uphold by flashing his magic every chance he gets.

Oh really? Explain to me how, outside of combat, Hawke flashes his magic each chance he gets?

Because a rogue is commonly seen with robes and a staff right?

[DRTJR]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Yeah, a good friend actually asked me once what I would do if he ever killed someone (the reasons why are not important for this discussion).

I said: Turn your ass in.

Sorry, I don't consort with murderers and I don't excuse accomplices on the grounds of "friendship".

I think it's more not connecting the dots, since Quentin was always such a nice and loyal guy his research into attaching limbs onto body parts has nothing to do with the kidnappings of women that at a glance kind look like his dead wife, because that would be crazy of him,

[SgtSteel91]

Is the argument here that Orsino discretely helped Quentin because Orsino thought Quentin was conducting legitimate research into limb reattachment, or something like that, but was using unethical and illegal methods with Blood Magic, when the reality was that Quentin was a creeper who was cutting up women to bring back his lover with Blood Magic?

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 16 décembre 2013 - 04:45 .

[DRTJR]

That's my argument at least, Orsino sounded like he regretted helping him at all and from the note signed O Orsino seems exited about the possibilities of what Quentin's research.

[Lord Raijin]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

I'm going c/p a comment  that I posted on my tumblr 4 days ago.

I never played as a warrior or a rogue in DA2, but if I had It would
only increase my already deep hatred for the Templar’s, especially after
coming home from the long journey from the deep roads to discover that
Knight-Captain Cullen and a few other Templar’s in my uncles home taking
my sister away from me, and taking her to the wretched gallows where
she would be exposed to such brutal Templar’s like Ser Karras and Ser
Otto Alrik. The thought of it pisses me off.


Had something happen to my sister... like getting tranquil or getting raped in the circle I would have plans to get back at the templars by bombing their chantry.

Truthfully, I side with the Mages not because I truely believe in Mage freedom, there needs to be some form of check on mages, but because my baby sister is going to be killed for a crime she didn't committe. And hell if I'm going to let that happen after everything that has happened to my family.

Why don't you believe in Mage freedom? In your game your father as an apostate living on the run from the Templars. You essentinally had to live in poverty far away from society fearing that the templars will not only take away your father, but also your sister, and the templars would more likley execute your mother for haboring not 1 apostate but 2.

If you sided with the mages to protect your baby sister from getting slaughtered then you should also fight for their freedom as well because as long as the Chantry (prior to Asunder) has control over the circles your sister would not have the freedom that you have, and she will never have the ability to love someone and to have a family of her own, not while shes in the Circle.

[Hazegurl]

Not really. Just because Hawke cares for his sister's well being doesn't mean he should give a damn about Mage Freedom.

[SgtSteel91]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Why don't you believe in Mage freedom? In your game your father as an apostate living on the run from the Templars. You essentinally had to live in poverty far away from society fearing that the templars will not only take away your father, but also your sister, and the templars would more likley execute your mother for haboring not 1 apostate but 2.

If you sided with the mages to protect your baby sister from getting slaughtered then you should also fight for their freedom as well because as long as the Chantry (prior to Asunder) has control over the circles your sister would not have the freedom that you have, and she will never have the ability to love someone and to have a family of her own, not while shes in the Circle.

My Hawke and myselft are really uncertain on the Mage Freedom issue.

Of course my Hawke would perfer his family to not be religious fugetives and have his sister live a "normal" life. Hell, he's in love with Merrill, who is technically a Maleficarum. So if he's not wanted for obstructing the Templars and killing a Knight Commander, he's sure as hell one for harboring a person who the Templars will kill on sight.

But I believe that there is a need for a check on Mages so that they don't use their power to hurt others or have their powers unintentionally hurt others. There's a reason why there are so many laws on gun ownership. Take the Templars for instance: the grunts are checked by their Knight Commander, who is checked by the Grand Cleric, who is checked by the Divine, who is checked by the Maker, who is never wrong. These checks theoretically make sure that no one is going to abuse their power when protecting mundanes and mages from the dangers of magic. Of course this doesn't always work out but imperfect solution to imperfect world, etc. In those cases the system needs restructuring to prevent that corruption.

Mages, I believe, need a check such as a moral anchor such that they don't use their power to abuse others or fall into demon packs or possession and /or a check to put them down in the even that they are possessed and stop them from hurting others as an abomination. Malcom's check was his Circle teaching and his desire to live the farm life with a family. Beth had Malcom's teaching and her brother to keep her in check. Merrill had her Keeper training and Hawke to keep her powers in check.

Despite what it has become, the Circle system is theoretically a good check on mages. It's a place where mages can learn to control and understand their powers as well as learn how to protect themselves from demonic influences. And if they fail, the Templars are there to quickly put down the abomination they become before they hurt others.

We both know that this system is very prone to corruption and skewed to screw over mages. But getting rid of that system and having mages run loose seems like a very bad idea if there are no checks on their powers. No training on controlling their magic. No one to stop them if they become an abomination. That's why my Hawke tells runaway mages to go back to the Circle so they can get trained to control their magic. If you don't have the proper taining then there is a real possibility of incidents occuring like Connor and Meredith's sister, who were prevented from getting actual eduaction on controling their powers and caused terrible incidents because they didn't know how to deal with their powers.

And obtaining that freedom through violent revolution and destroying organizations they believe are threatening them also doesn't appeal to Hawke or myself. To me/him that's only going to plant the seeds of fear and hatred to the other side and perpetuate a cycle of revenge on the mages who hurt mundanes who were hurt by the Templars who were hurt by the mages, etc. It's why Hawke rivaled Anders and eventually killed him because he was for and committed to a vengeful agenda; freedom through the destruction of the Templar Order and the Chantry.

But in the end he chose to protect his family so now he has to lay in the bed he's made and fight with the Mages, despite his doubt on whether this is the right course of action to take (or maybe not, it depends on what he's doing after he disappeared at the the end of Dragon Age 2).

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 16 décembre 2013 - 08:04 .

[Rebel Wolf]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Why don't you believe in Mage freedom? In your game your father as an apostate living on the run from the Templars. You essentinally had to live in poverty far away from society fearing that the templars will not only take away your father, but also your sister, and the templars would more likley execute your mother for haboring not 1 apostate but 2.

If you sided with the mages to protect your baby sister from getting slaughtered then you should also fight for their freedom as well because as long as the Chantry (prior to Asunder) has control over the circles your sister would not have the freedom that you have, and she will never have the ability to love someone and to have a family of her own, not while shes in the Circle.

My Hawke and myselft are really uncertain on the Mage Freedom issue.

Of course my Hawke would perfer his family to not be religious fugetives and have his sister live a "normal" life. Hell, he's in love with Merrill, who is technically a Maleficarum. So if he's not wanted for obstructing the Templars and killing a Knight Commander, he's sure as hell one for harboring a person who the Templars will kill on sight.

But I believe that there is a need for a check on Mages so that they don't use their power to hurt others or have their powers unintentionally hurt other. There's a reason why there are so many laws on gun ownership. Take the Templars for instance: the grunts are checked by their Knight Commander, who is checked by the Grand Cleric, who is checked by the Divine, who is checked by the Maker, who is never wrong. These checks theoretically make sure that no one is going to abuse their power when protecting mundanes and mages from the dangers of magic. Of course this doesn't always work out but imperfect solution to imperfect world, etc. In those cases the system needs restructuring to prevent that corruption.

Mages, I believe, need a check such as a moral anchor such that they don't use their power to abuse others or fall into demon packs or possession and /or a check to put them down in the even that they are possessed to stop them from hurting others as an abomination. Malcom's check was his Circle teaching and his desire to live the farm life with a family. Beth had Malcom's teaching and her brother to keep her in check. Merrill had her Keeper training and Hawke to keep her powers in check.

Despite what it has become, the Circle system is theoretically a good check on mages. It's a place where mages can learn to control and understand their power learn to protect themselves from demonic influences. And if they fail, the Templars are there to quickly put down the abomination they become before they hurt others.

We both know that this system is very prone to corruption. But getting rid of that system and having mages run loose seems like a very bad idea if there are no checks on their powers.

And obtaining that freedom through violent revolution and destroying organizations they believe are threatening them also doesn't appeal to Hawke or myself. To me/him that's only going to plant the seeds of fear and hatred to the other side and perpetuate a cycle of revenge on the mages who hurt mundanes who were hurt by the Templars who were hurt by the mages, etc. It's why Hawke rivaled Anders and eventually killed him because he was clearly unstable and unable to control his actions which lead to the deaths of everyone in the Chantry.

But in the end he chose to protect his family and so now he's going to have to fight for the Mages, despite his reseravtions on whether this is the right course of action to take. (Or he might depending on what he's doing when he dissapeared.)

He knew what he was doing when he blew up the chantry,he wasn't unable to control his actions.
He had a goal and achieved it.

[SgtSteel91]

If you rival him Anders is clearly losing control of Justice and keeps blacking out, unaware of what happens afterwards. I'm pretty sure he asks you to kill him because he fears he can't control Justice and he doesn't want lose control and repeat that terrorist attack.

[Hazegurl]

His plan to blow up the Chantry was not a result of him blacking out. He was in control of the lies he was telling and duping Hawke into helping him.

[Rebel Wolf]

Justice didn't make him blow up the chantry though.

[SgtSteel91]

Alright, if Anders really was in control then he still dies because he's guilty of terrorism. Anders' life as he knows it is done for. He's getting the death penalty for his crimes so I thought it'd be best for him to die now among friends rather than die later, living with his guilt, in front of people who will only hate and condem him.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 16 décembre 2013 - 07:34 .

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Anders lost the right to call me his friend when he decided innocent people should die so he could get more people killed in his demented moral mathematics.

He dies a traitor, and I wish I could tell him thst before I kill him.

[SgtSteel91]

Lord Raijin wrote...
She will never have the ability to love someone and to have a family of her own, not while shes in the Circle.

On a completely different topic, I would very much like it if she and a Rival Sebastian did hook up. Hawke, Sebastian, Bethany, and Merrill go to Starkhaven and take back Sebastian's rightful place as Prince, with Beth as his Princess-Consort. It gives Hawke and Merrill (and Hawke's friends if they want) a place to lay low and maybe a chance to put "Champion of Starkhaven" under his belt.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 16 décembre 2013 - 08:13 .

[The Elder King]

Hazegurl wrote...

His plan to blow up the Chantry was not a result of him blacking out. He was in control of the lies he was telling and duping Hawke into helping him.

True, though in rivarly Hawke somehow convinced him that his plan was wrong. Than Justice decides that after all letting Anders take decisions isn't that important.

[Karlone123]

Lord Raijin wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

I'm going c/p a comment  that I posted on my tumblr 4 days ago.

I never played as a warrior or a rogue in DA2, but if I had It would
only increase my already deep hatred for the Templar’s, especially after
coming home from the long journey from the deep roads to discover that
Knight-Captain Cullen and a few other Templar’s in my uncles home taking
my sister away from me, and taking her to the wretched gallows where
she would be exposed to such brutal Templar’s like Ser Karras and Ser
Otto Alrik. The thought of it pisses me off.


Had something happen to my sister... like getting tranquil or getting raped in the circle I would have plans to get back at the templars by bombing their chantry.

Truthfully, I side with the Mages not because I truely believe in Mage freedom, there needs to be some form of check on mages, but because my baby sister is going to be killed for a crime she didn't committe. And hell if I'm going to let that happen after everything that has happened to my family.

Why don't you believe in Mage freedom? In your game your father as an apostate living on the run from the Templars. You essentinally had to live in poverty far away from society fearing that the templars will not only take away your father, but also your sister, and the templars would more likley execute your mother for haboring not 1 apostate but 2.

If you sided with the mages to protect your baby sister from getting slaughtered then you should also fight for their freedom as well because as long as the Chantry (prior to Asunder) has control over the circles your sister would not have the freedom that you have, and she will never have the ability to love someone and to have a family of her own, not while shes in the Circle.

Even Malcolm wished for his children not to bear magic, even though Carver did not wield magic he still felt like he could have a life of his own due to magic running in his family. Plus what sort parent gives his/her children a life of being constantly on the run. You are also imposing on people by trying to make them accept the precense of mages while they still fear magic.

It would not go down well with those who fear and mistrust mages due to a thousand years of seperation.

[Fast Jimmy]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Fast Jimmy: That's willfully obtuse. You know WHY they were kept secret.

If you're equating Chantry prejudice against Apostates - and being a demented blood mage woman killer - then shame on you.

We have exactly two (actually, arguably three) data points to draw this from. Hawke/Bethany (I'll treat them as one data point since the are exclusive) and Quentin. Arguably, Feynriel could be used here, but he did go to the Circle and then ran away, with his whereabouts possibky (or possibly not) known by Orsino, so its unclear if he was being "hidden" or not. 

Regardless, I don't think I'm being obtuse when I say we can't coearly conclude that any mage being hidden from the Templars/Chantry is dangerous. Was Quentin? Of course - but we're not given evidence that someone being hidden means that person was evil or dangerous. 

[SgtSteel91]

In the case of Hawke/Beth, they weren't dangerous even though they were hidden becasue they had Malcolm to teach them about magic, which he learned while he was in the Circle.

And there are two cases where hiding a mage was dangerous: Connor and Meredith's sister. Both were hidden from the Templars, but weren't given proper training on controlling their power and fending of demonic possession. And because of that, both ended up possessed, with Connor causing the problems at Redcliff and Meredith's sister turning into an abomination and killing, like, 70 people.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 16 décembre 2013 - 02:44 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Bethany wasn't kept secret in the end, the Templars DID track her down. And everybody knew Hawke was a mage by act 3.

[SgtSteel91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Bethany wasn't kept secret in the end, the Templars DID track her down. And everybody knew Hawke was a mage by act 3.

I mean before all that, before going to Kirkwall, they were kept hidden in Lotherin and nothing bad happened.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I know. I was disputing Fast Jimmy's claim that the Circle for some reason kept the Hawkes' status as mages secret from the Templars, which they clearly didn't.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 16 décembre 2013 - 04:04 .

[Lord Raijin]

Karlone123 wrote...
Even Malcolm wished for his children not to bear magic, even though Carver did not wield magic he still felt like he could have a life of his own due to magic running in his family. Plus what sort parent gives his/her children a life of being constantly on the run. You are also imposing on people by trying to make them accept the precense of mages while they still fear magic.

It would not go down well with those who fear and mistrust mages due to a thousand years of seperation.

Malcolm was condition by the Chantry to view magic as being a "curse". He may of escaped the Circle to be with his lover, but he still has the circle mage like mentality. He maybe physically free, but not mentally. It is diffcult to self-deprogram what was put into your head since day one.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Karlone123 wrote...
Even Malcolm wished for his children not to bear magic, even though Carver did not wield magic he still felt like he could have a life of his own due to magic running in his family. Plus what sort parent gives his/her children a life of being constantly on the run. You are also imposing on people by trying to make them accept the precense of mages while they still fear magic.

It would not go down well with those who fear and mistrust mages due to a thousand years of seperation.

Malcolm was condition by the Chantry to view magic as being a "curse". He may of escaped the Circle to be with his lover, but he still has the circle mage like mentality. He maybe physically free, but not mentally. It is diffcult to self-deprogram what was put into your head since day one.

The mere fact that Malcolm ran away with a lover shows that he didn't put much stock in the Chantry's views, so your entire claim simply falls apart because of this.