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[SgtSteel91]

I'm just going to wait until Inquisition comes out and see how all of this plays out before I start coming up with ideas on how to bring back / change the system.

[Steelcan]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

I'm just going to wait until Inquisition comes out and see how all of this plays out before I start coming up with ideas on how to bring back / change the system.

Pretty much

I have an idea on what I would do if I had complete control, but since I do not... Im gonna wait and see what we get.

Modifié par Steelcan, 17 décembre 2013 - 04:16 .

[Master Warder Z_]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

I think that the Circle system is the best system for all of Thedas, but I rather think it needs to be fixed rather than deny the mages their humanity. People need to understand the dangers of magic, of course, but the Circles can be improved and once the Circles are reestablished with a better balance of power, then research can be made in minimizing magic's dangers.

Exactly. The basic premise of the Circles should still exist: to educate and train people in magic. But the Templars constantly holding a sword over every mage's throat and treating them as subpeople is the part that needs tuning. I liked DRTJR's idea, where there is the large Circle of Maji, and in every town or even just deecent sized city, there is a smaller scale one to keep an eye on the mages in that city. In exchange for being watched, the mages are allowed to lead normal lives. And in the unfortunant incident that a mage is possessed or even just goes evil, there is the local Chantry there able to stop it before too much damage occurs.

The Templars need constant vigilance merely to preform their duties , Hindering them not granting them constant access to mages is merely aiding in the possibility of demonic influence taking root amongst them.

Moving on to the more practical matter.

The Circles of Magi are massive constructs most of which predate the chantry apparently according to lore, so you would impose building these bastions everywhere likely at chantry or the local nations expense merely to grant the mages the concession of possibly being allowed to cause even MORE harm after a brutal rebellion?


Simply put that is Lunancy.

I'm not saying to build a tower in every city. Splitting the mage population into city-acceptable groups would in fact remove the reason for those constructs in the first place. And as I said, they're still watched. Just not to the extent of a sneeze has them slammed against the wall bcause they think they're about to curse someone. 

And since we're going to practical matters, it also would keep the mages in small enough numbers where if they rebel, even though their main reasons to do so would be gone at this point, the city's Templars can easily take them down if needed. Having too many mages in one place has not proven to work well, what with the Ferelden and Kirkwall Circle incidents. 

You're of the mindset that the mages will seek retribution regardless of how they are treated, yet if the source of their hatred towards the Chantry is gone, such as best case scenario being you are imprisoned for life, they will have no real reason too. Some will turn evil, yes, but then some people in every group turn evil.

If that's lunacy to you, then prepare for your logic to spark rebellion after rebellion after rebellion. After all, more mages are born every day.

Hardly, When you look to history rebellions that are crushed brutally and with out hestiation or mercy are rarely followed up within a life time. Spartacus's little ego trip,  The Cornish Rebellion in England, The Irish rebellion of 1798, The Bosian Uprisings against the Ottoman empire, The Deccan Riots,  The Finnish Civil war of 1918. The Lebanse Civil War which lasted from 1970 to the 1990s.

I can list these events for hours more, when in history if you prove you are willing to cross the line and destroy entire generations of people peace and order will follow, Revenge will certainly fester within a few but they can be quietly removed as threats as time rolls on.

My point is this, Overwhelming brutality has proven it self an effective means of keeping peace in both reality and thedas.

And considering the more practical matter, i would be convinced that smaller mage populations spread through out a nation might a good thing but it just makes removing them all from a central location if it comes to war once again too time consuming and ineffective.

Centralizing their location for at least a decade following the rebellion will be needed, in fact i likely will head canon that for the first time in generations the White Spires lowest levels will again be needed.

And if you can actually find a situation where a templar pinned a mage against the wall for sneezing for that reasoning i would be impressed.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

I'm just going to wait until Inquisition comes out and see how all of this plays out before I start coming up with ideas on how to bring back / change the system.

That's probably wise. Ecpecting a certain set of circumstances to happen will only lead to dissapointment if it doesn't.

[SgtSteel91]

By the way I would tell my soldiers in the PAX demo to save the town while me and my companions go protect the keep.

[Master Warder Z_]

Steelcan wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

I'm just going to wait until Inquisition comes out and see how all of this plays out before I start coming up with ideas on how to bring back / change the system.

Pretty much

I have an idea on what I would do if I had complete control, but since I do not wlIm gonna wait and see what we get.

Well this is little besides speculation and headcannon at the moment, although i personally think i would be slightly disapointed if you cannot brutally put down the rebellion and drag the surviving refuse back to the various circles.

[Steelcan]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

I'm just going to wait until Inquisition comes out and see how all of this plays out before I start coming up with ideas on how to bring back / change the system.

Pretty much

I have an idea on what I would do if I had complete control, but since I do not wlIm gonna wait and see what we get.

Well this is little besides speculation and headcannon at the moment, although i personally think i would be slightly disapointed if you cannot brutally put down the rebellion and drag the surviving refuse back to the various circles.

Id like the extrees on both sides to be options availible of course.

[DRTJR]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

By the way I would tell my soldiers in the PAX demo to save the town while me and my companions go protect the keep.

I would do the opposite, have the soldiers protect the keep while I ride in and save the town. It worked for the Warden It will work for the Inquisitor 

[Master Warder Z_]

Steelcan wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

I'm just going to wait until Inquisition comes out and see how all of this plays out before I start coming up with ideas on how to bring back / change the system.

Pretty much

I have an idea on what I would do if I had complete control, but since I do not wlIm gonna wait and see what we get.

Well this is little besides speculation and headcannon at the moment, although i personally think i would be slightly disapointed if you cannot brutally put down the rebellion and drag the surviving refuse back to the various circles.

Id like the extrees on both sides to be options availible of course.

To be honest?

The only Rebellion i want successful at the moment is the one of the Helghast vs the ISA.

[SgtSteel91]

Master Warder Z wrote...

To be honest?

The only Rebellion i want successful at the moment is the one of the Helghast vs the ISA.

I know this is off topic, but I am sort of biased twoards the Helghast too, mostly because I think their soldiers look cooler.

But ON topic: I remain neutral on supporting either Templars or Mages.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 17 décembre 2013 - 04:25 .

[Steelcan]

Shouldn't even be surprised really...


As for rebellions, the mummer's farce is almost done, and the North remembers

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yeah, I'll wait to see how each side handles their war before choosing which side deserves my Inquisitor's support.

[SgtSteel91]

Steelcan wrote...

Shouldn't even be surprised really...


As for rebellions, the mummer's farce is almost done, and the North remembers

Whateves man, Stannis is The One True King of Westros.

Back ON TOPIC: Does anyone have any pictures of what these Red Templars are going to look like?

[Steelcan]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Shouldn't even be surprised really...


As for rebellions, the mummer's farce is almost done, and the North remembers

Whateves man, Stannis is The One True King of Westros.

Back ON TOPIC: Does anyone have any pictures of what these Red Templars are going to look like?

And Stannis can have everything south of the Neck

[dragonflight288]

Now if you had seen that sword of mercy on a normal templar striking down a civilian with out cause your point would have merit but the Red Templars? No they are no longer worthy of bearing the mantle of being a templar, at the very least they have been consumed by their desire to stop the mages that they have forgone the loss of their humanity and in essence the very thing they are supposed to strive keeping the common masses from being exposed to.

Ah, but there IS an example of normal templars killing non-mages, and it's in Act 3 of DA2. Ser Mettin and the Templar Death Squad, authorized by Meredith to purge mage sympathizers and supporters.

If you support the templars you have the quest The Last Holdouts, and there are these letters.

We narrowly escaped Meredith's hounds. The city just isn't safe, Bancroft. We must get five out through the gates tonight and get to the caves. It's that, or risk capture and interrogation.

-"MS"

Casualties

The hounds nabbed Franke the Cobbler tonight; no one knows where he is now. Thom Beshcal and his wife were killed three days back. They're no longer just hunting us: they're hunting our friends and family. To the Void with the consequences! We must strike back while we still can.

-"A"

I can get two out tonight. A guide on the other side will take them to the refuge. Don't pick anyone with a cold; last time, a careless sneeze almost alerted the guard.

-Bancroft

Shipping Notice

We can't trust the raiders' promise of passage - the templar's bounty on us is far too tempting. Press on every contact you have! We must leave Kirkwall before the knight-commander does something drastic. Each night, more of our brethren make it to the coast.

If the hounds sniff out your current location, the other site we discussed is clear. Be prepared to leave at a moment's notice.

-Bancroft

And then on Sundermount, Mettin pretty much demands to kill all the non-mages who supported or assisted the mages.

Wheras if you side with Orsino and get A Noble Agenda quest, where Ser Mettin is leading a Death Squad of templars killing non-mages who either support or are related to the mages, which corroborates with the letters above if you're pro-templar. who have not acted hostile to the templars. And I found out something interesting. If you haven't completed Follower's of She bandits when you go to protect Ser Marlein, you have to fight templars.

There is quite clearly a reason templars are losing popularity. They aren't targeting mages only, and they are no longer seen as defenders of the people, especially when they're slaughtering innocents in broad daylight (at least in Kirkwall) without reprisal or punishment.

Whether or not this reflects on all templars attitudes, it does reflect upon all templars in the eyes of the people. Who's more trustworthy? The men in armor using the Sword of Mercy as a crest, slaughtering them left and right as they imbibe red lyrium, or the mages who have declared their independence and are likely practicing blood magic? How many supporters do the Red Templars have among the Blue Templars (colorcoded based on their lyrium use) and vice-versa?

Fact is, templars are killing non-mages indiscriminately and seemingly without justification for the majority of people Most of them won't differentiate between a red templar and a blue one. All they'll see is the armor, just like when people look at mages, all they'll see is the possibility of blood magic or an abomination. Templars cannot be called defenders any more. Not as a group at least. There will be individuals, but as a whole they will be seen just as bad as many see the mages.

[The Elder King]

While I want multiple options for handling the war, due to the imports system it's likely that we'll get a single outcome. I have the impression that the most extreme supporters of the two sides are going to be disappointed.
Though I doubt it's something we'll bother soon. Considering that the main plot in Inquisition isn't the mage-templar war, I don't think the war will end in DAI.

[Lotion Soronarr]

When I never get was - why would ANYONE want to build a sword out of RAW LYRIUM - the thing that can kill on contact, and that even tranquil have to handle with care.

Refined lyrium as a potion? Refined lyrium runes? OK.

But it makes as much sene as making a sword out of plutonium.

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

When I never get was - why would ANYONE want to build a sword out of RAW LYRIUM - the thing that can kill on contact, and that even tranquil have to handle with care.

Refined lyrium as a potion? Refined lyrium runes? OK.

But it makes as much sene as making a sword out of plutonium.

I always figured she had a specialized sword made, using base materials (Silverite, Red Steel, whatever) and had the lyrium idol used throughout it and enchanted into it. As opposed to the sword itself being the lyrium idol only. Certainly the lyrium idol is prominent on it, but I never got the indication the sword was JUST the lyrium idol.

I think a better question is, how the **** was it even possible for a person to work with it in the first place, without succumbing to it?

[HiroVoid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

When I never get was - why would ANYONE want to build a sword out of RAW LYRIUM - the thing that can kill on contact, and that even tranquil have to handle with care.

Refined lyrium as a potion? Refined lyrium runes? OK.

But it makes as much sene as making a sword out of plutonium.

I always figured she had a specialized sword made, using base materials (Silverite, Red Steel, whatever) and had the lyrium idol used throughout it and enchanted into it. As opposed to the sword itself being the lyrium idol only. Certainly the lyrium idol is prominent on it, but I never got the indication the sword was JUST the lyrium idol.

I think a better question is, how the **** was it even possible for a person to work with it in the first place, without succumbing to it?

Enchantment?  Enchantment.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 17 décembre 2013 - 09:48 .

[TEWR]

I'm beginning to think the lyrium idol doesn't go after people who are simple. Would explain why it doesn't go after Sandal and Hawke.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

When I never get was - why would ANYONE want to build a sword out of RAW LYRIUM - the thing that can kill on contact, and that even tranquil have to handle with care.

Refined lyrium as a potion? Refined lyrium runes? OK.

But it makes as much sene as making a sword out of plutonium.

Perhaps red lyrium has different properties compared to blue lyrium that it doesnt cause death on contact.

[Lord Raijin]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Now if you had seen that sword of mercy on a normal templar striking down a civilian with out cause your point would have merit but the Red Templars? No they are no longer worthy of bearing the mantle of being a templar, at the very least they have been consumed by their desire to stop the mages that they have forgone the loss of their humanity and in essence the very thing they are supposed to strive keeping the common masses from being exposed to.

Ah, but there IS an example of normal templars killing non-mages, and it's in Act 3 of DA2. Ser Mettin and the Templar Death Squad, authorized by Meredith to purge mage sympathizers and supporters.

If you support the templars you have the quest The Last Holdouts, and there are these letters.

We narrowly escaped Meredith's hounds. The city just isn't safe, Bancroft. We must get five out through the gates tonight and get to the caves. It's that, or risk capture and interrogation.

-"MS"

Casualties

The hounds nabbed Franke the Cobbler tonight; no one knows where he is now. Thom Beshcal and his wife were killed three days back. They're no longer just hunting us: they're hunting our friends and family. To the Void with the consequences! We must strike back while we still can.

-"A"

I can get two out tonight. A guide on the other side will take them to the refuge. Don't pick anyone with a cold; last time, a careless sneeze almost alerted the guard.

-Bancroft

Shipping Notice

We can't trust the raiders' promise of passage - the templar's bounty on us is far too tempting. Press on every contact you have! We must leave Kirkwall before the knight-commander does something drastic. Each night, more of our brethren make it to the coast.

If the hounds sniff out your current location, the other site we discussed is clear. Be prepared to leave at a moment's notice.

-Bancroft

And then on Sundermount, Mettin pretty much demands to kill all the non-mages who supported or assisted the mages.

Wheras if you side with Orsino and get A Noble Agenda quest, where Ser Mettin is leading a Death Squad of templars killing non-mages who either support or are related to the mages, which corroborates with the letters above if you're pro-templar. who have not acted hostile to the templars. And I found out something interesting. If you haven't completed Follower's of She bandits when you go to protect Ser Marlein, you have to fight templars.

There is quite clearly a reason templars are losing popularity. They aren't targeting mages only, and they are no longer seen as defenders of the people, especially when they're slaughtering innocents in broad daylight (at least in Kirkwall) without reprisal or punishment.

Whether or not this reflects on all templars attitudes, it does reflect upon all templars in the eyes of the people. Who's more trustworthy? The men in armor using the Sword of Mercy as a crest, slaughtering them left and right as they imbibe red lyrium, or the mages who have declared their independence and are likely practicing blood magic? How many supporters do the Red Templars have among the Blue Templars (colorcoded based on their lyrium use) and vice-versa?

Fact is, templars are killing non-mages indiscriminately and seemingly without justification for the majority of people Most of them won't differentiate between a red templar and a blue one. All they'll see is the armor, just like when people look at mages, all they'll see is the possibility of blood magic or an abomination. Templars cannot be called defenders any more. Not as a group at least. There will be individuals, but as a whole they will be seen just as bad as many see the mages.

Anders doesn't seem like the bad guy after all for blowing up the Chantry. It seems rather jusitified for all of the murders of Kirkwalls citizens that the Templar order killed. The fact that it was the Chantry in Kirkwall that was driving the city down to it's own annihilation, and not the mages. The fact that Elthina allowed this to happen clearly indicated that she's not this innocent old woman who everyone should feel sorry for when Anders killed her.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

When I never get was - why would ANYONE want to build a sword out of RAW LYRIUM - the thing that can kill on contact, and that even tranquil have to handle with care.

Refined lyrium as a potion? Refined lyrium runes? OK.

But it makes as much sene as making a sword out of plutonium.

I always figured she had a specialized sword made, using base materials (Silverite, Red Steel, whatever) and had the lyrium idol used throughout it and enchanted into it. As opposed to the sword itself being the lyrium idol only. Certainly the lyrium idol is prominent on it, but I never got the indication the sword was JUST the lyrium idol.

I think a better question is, how the **** was it even possible for a person to work with it in the first place, without succumbing to it?

Tranquilk are capable of working Blue Lyrium with no ill effects. I see no reaosn why the Tranquil shouldn't be able to work Red Lyrium just the same way.

[Senya]

Lord Raijin wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Now if you had seen that sword of mercy on a normal templar striking down a civilian with out cause your point would have merit but the Red Templars? No they are no longer worthy of bearing the mantle of being a templar, at the very least they have been consumed by their desire to stop the mages that they have forgone the loss of their humanity and in essence the very thing they are supposed to strive keeping the common masses from being exposed to.

Ah, but there IS an example of normal templars killing non-mages, and it's in Act 3 of DA2. Ser Mettin and the Templar Death Squad, authorized by Meredith to purge mage sympathizers and supporters.

If you support the templars you have the quest The Last Holdouts, and there are these letters.

We narrowly escaped Meredith's hounds. The city just isn't safe, Bancroft. We must get five out through the gates tonight and get to the caves. It's that, or risk capture and interrogation.

-"MS"

Casualties

The hounds nabbed Franke the Cobbler tonight; no one knows where he is now. Thom Beshcal and his wife were killed three days back. They're no longer just hunting us: they're hunting our friends and family. To the Void with the consequences! We must strike back while we still can.

-"A"

I can get two out tonight. A guide on the other side will take them to the refuge. Don't pick anyone with a cold; last time, a careless sneeze almost alerted the guard.

-Bancroft

Shipping Notice

We can't trust the raiders' promise of passage - the templar's bounty on us is far too tempting. Press on every contact you have! We must leave Kirkwall before the knight-commander does something drastic. Each night, more of our brethren make it to the coast.

If the hounds sniff out your current location, the other site we discussed is clear. Be prepared to leave at a moment's notice.

-Bancroft

And then on Sundermount, Mettin pretty much demands to kill all the non-mages who supported or assisted the mages.

Wheras if you side with Orsino and get A Noble Agenda quest, where Ser Mettin is leading a Death Squad of templars killing non-mages who either support or are related to the mages, which corroborates with the letters above if you're pro-templar. who have not acted hostile to the templars. And I found out something interesting. If you haven't completed Follower's of She bandits when you go to protect Ser Marlein, you have to fight templars.

There is quite clearly a reason templars are losing popularity. They aren't targeting mages only, and they are no longer seen as defenders of the people, especially when they're slaughtering innocents in broad daylight (at least in Kirkwall) without reprisal or punishment.

Whether or not this reflects on all templars attitudes, it does reflect upon all templars in the eyes of the people. Who's more trustworthy? The men in armor using the Sword of Mercy as a crest, slaughtering them left and right as they imbibe red lyrium, or the mages who have declared their independence and are likely practicing blood magic? How many supporters do the Red Templars have among the Blue Templars (colorcoded based on their lyrium use) and vice-versa?

Fact is, templars are killing non-mages indiscriminately and seemingly without justification for the majority of people Most of them won't differentiate between a red templar and a blue one. All they'll see is the armor, just like when people look at mages, all they'll see is the possibility of blood magic or an abomination. Templars cannot be called defenders any more. Not as a group at least. There will be individuals, but as a whole they will be seen just as bad as many see the mages.

Anders doesn't seem like the bad guy after all for blowing up the Chantry. It seems rather jusitified for all of the murders of Kirkwalls citizens that the Templar order killed. The fact that it was the Chantry in Kirkwall that was driving the city down to it's own annihilation, and not the mages. The fact that Elthina allowed this to happen clearly indicated that she's not this innocent old woman who everyone should feel sorry for when Anders killed her.

From what I read on the wiki, those people weren't exactly innocent as they were harboring blood mages...

Most people in Thedas do consider that sort of thing a capital offense. Arguments on blood magic aside, most people consider it evil. Even the Dalish consider it evil. I don't see any way Elthina could stop them beyond declaring blood magic suddenly legal, which I do not think would do any good...

Furthermore, Ser Agatha and half the Templars there support sparing the collaboraters.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 17 décembre 2013 - 06:53 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

They weren't necessarily all Blood MAges, but they did all harbor Apostates, which are fugitives of the law. So none of them were technically "innocent", and we already know that Thedas generally got a much harsher sense of law and justice, so it shouldn't come as asurprise that someone harboring a fugitive gets killed. And however bad the people felt about the Templars, all that evaporated alongside the Chantry in Kirkwall. After that all the commoners would more than likely feel that the Templars had been fully justified in their actions.