4643 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

I'm not saying mages should go - but people are arguing that the world depends on them.

That is actually not true - like at all.

In fact, I believe Thedas is far worse off WITH mages than it would be without.

The "why" doesn't necessarily matter - but from demons to megalomania - the reasons behind magic's danger to civilization and the well being of people is made evident throughout the games.

Bioware has not yet supported "Magetopia" in the DA series - and I have seen nothing to indicate they ever will.

Yes, mages and magic are "cool" - but Thedas magic comes with a LOT of baggage and it's ignoring or discarding those dangers I take great issue with.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 20 décembre 2013 - 04:45 .

[DKJaigen]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm not saying mages should go - but people are arguing that the world depends on them.

That is actually not true - like at all.

In fact, I believe Thedas is far worse off WITH mages than it would be without.

The "why" doesn't necessarily matter - but from demons to megalomania - the reasons behind magic's danger to civilization and the well being of people is made evident throughout the games.

Bioware has not yet supported "Magetopia" in the DA series - and I have seen nothing to indicate they ever will.

Yes, mages and magic are "cool" - but Thedas magic comes with a LOT of baggage and it's ignoring or discarding those dangers I take great issue with.

That is what i understand. What i dont understand is that you support the templar order. The fact is that this game is called DA Inquistion already shows that the templars are a collosal failure as they should have been the first line of defense against a demonic invasion . instead they are snorting red lyrium and actively aiding the demonic invasion. Also the **** they pulled in asunder is not something i forget. in one stroke the templar order stripped thedas of a coherent defense all in the name of their own zealotery.

If you wish to understand and defeat  the demonic invasion you cannot act like a templar.  Have you played X-com? that is how you defeat a stronger enemy.

[Medhia Nox]

@DKJaigen: I don't support the Templars.

[dragonflight288]

If you wish to understand and defeat the demonic invasion you cannot act like a templar. Have you played X-com? that is how you defeat a stronger enemy.

Off topic here, but XCOM is an AWESOME game.

[Lord Raijin]

Just because we see red Templar's does not mean that every other Templar out there are snorting up red lyrium to get their next fix. They're bad Templar's and and than they're the good ones, like Evangeline,Thrask and Emeric.

The Templar Order is not a colossal failure, just poorly manage by the wrong set of people. I can only hope that Cullen could wake the hell up and at least try to get the Order back in good health.

[DKJaigen]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Just because we see red Templar's does not mean that every other Templar out there are snorting up red lyrium to get their next fix. They're bad Templar's and and than they're the good ones, like Evangeline,Thrask and Emeric.

The Templar Order is not a colossal failure, just poorly manage by the wrong set of people. I can only hope that Cullen could wake the hell up and at least try to get the Order back in good health.

Rajin its not about good or bad people even if the entire order was composed out thrasks emeric's and evangeline's i wold not hesitate disband them. its not about good or bad its about their methods that suck balls.

[Lord Raijin]

The concept of the Templar Order is a good one. It helps both the mages and the mundanes. At one point it did exactly that. The mages were happy and so were the citizens. I would not disband the Order unless if that was my last option. I would rather find a solution to patch the holes rather than to just abandon it.

[DKJaigen]

Lord Raijin wrote...

The concept of the Templar Order is a good one. It helps both the mages and the mundanes. At one point it did exactly that. The mages were happy and so were the citizens. I would not disband the Order unless if that was my last option. I would rather find a solution to patch the holes rather than to just abandon it.

Communism is a good concept but it doesnt help the fact that it killed millions. Also 17 annulments is not a happy mage population. The foundation that the templar needs to use lyrium makes the entire templar concept worthless. if you where a soldier or police officer the greatest social danger you can have is that you can be blackmailed or be influenced from the outside . Templar by default cannot think for themselves and as cannot become a police force. 

And for simple gaining support from the mages chantry and orlais my inquisitor will simply kill of all templars and end their little rebellion.

[Lord Raijin]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

The concept of the Templar Order is a good one. It helps both the mages and the mundanes. At one point it did exactly that. The mages were happy and so were the citizens. I would not disband the Order unless if that was my last option. I would rather find a solution to patch the holes rather than to just abandon it.

Communism is a good concept but it doesnt help the fact that it killed millions. Also 17 annulments is not a happy mage population. The foundation that the templar needs to use lyrium makes the entire templar concept worthless. if you where a soldier or police officer the greatest social danger you can have is that you can be blackmailed or be influenced from the outside . Templar by default cannot think for themselves and as cannot become a police force. 

And for simple gaining support from the mages chantry and orlais my inquisitor will simply kill of all templars and end their little rebellion.

The annulment that was requested from Greagoir in Origins was because of a mage who couldn't keep his mouth shut. When things didn't go his way he retaliated and faught. He summoned a pride demon that he could not possibly defeat, even as a Senior Enchanter, and became overwhemlped by the demon that he got himself posssessed and became an abomination. That is not the fault of the Templars but Uldred. It was him that provoked the Knight-commander to request R.O.A because their were abominations roaming freely in the circle.

An addition if you read the codex entry of The Right of Annulment it clearly stated that a mage was caught practicing in forbidding art of magic (I assume blood magic) and was later executed for the crime. The other mages from the  Nevarran Circle heard about it and retalited by casting spells at the templars. The circle became a full riot and considered it irredeemable. An abomination escaped, right after slaughtering both templars and mages, and was later slain, but not after killing 70 people in the process.

As for the 17 other annulments, I have zero knowledge of what actually happen during the time so I can't comment on it. I'm sure theirs a reason for it.

[Eternal Phoenix]

The templar order was a colossal failure not due to what pro-mage supporters say (i.e "they need to let mages run free and naked!") but because they allowed the atrocities of blood mages to occur under their nose as well as the atrocities in their own circle.

The templars run by Gregory in Fereldan however were top notch and dealt with the problem correctly as they rooted out blood mages straight away (for the most part as Uldred was extremely clever and able to slip their sights till the end but the blood mages of DA2 were all deranged idiots who could be spotted miles away and the templars should have purged the entire city clean from the start when they learned of organized blood mage circles).

Also communism isn't a good concept. Only one aspect of it is good (equality for everyone) but the main aspect about dictatorship of a government destroys it. The templar order is about protecting mages from others and themselves. When given freedom we've seen what mages do in both the lore (Tevinter Imperium, also home of slavery) and in the games (Redcliffe, Circle Tower, entire conflict of Kirkwall). Anyone who wants to disband the templar order just wants to watch the world burn and is no better than a murderer.

In the example of Redcliffe, one mage destroyed (or almost destroyed if you defended it) an entire town. Even if it was unintentionally. Even if 98% of mages didn't pratice blood magic or managed themselves correctly it only takes a few (that 2%) to summon a horde of demons or undead. Origins and DA2 shows us however that most free mages are deranged blood mages driven to the pursuit of more power by their blood lust and the temptations of demons.

They are the most dangerous. Not the templars.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 21 décembre 2013 - 12:56 .

[DKJaigen]

Elton John is dead wrote...

The templar order was a colossal failure not due to what pro-mage supporters say (i.e "they need to let mages run free and naked!") but because they allowed the atrocities of blood mages to occur under their nose as well as the atrocities in their own circle.

The templars run by Gregory in Fereldan however were top notch and dealt with the problem correctly as they rooted out blood mages straight away (for the most part as Uldred was extremely clever and able to slip their sights till the end but the blood mages of DA2 were all deranged idiots who could be spotted miles away and the templars should have purged the entire city clean from the start when they learned of organized blood mage circles).

Also communism isn't a good concept. Only one aspect of it is good (equality for everyone) but the main aspect about dictatorship of a government destroys it. The templar order is about protecting mages from others and themselves. When given freedom we've seen what mages do in both the lore (Tevinter Imperium, also home of slavery) and in the games (Redcliffe, Circle Tower, entire conflict of Kirkwall). Anyone who wants to disband the templar order just wants to watch the world burn and is no better than a murderer.

In the example of Redcliffe, one mage destroyed (or almost destroyed if you defended it) an entire town. Even if it was unintentionally. Even if 98% of mages didn't pratice blood magic or managed themselves correctly it only takes a few (that 2%) to summon a horde of demons or undead. Origins and DA2 shows us however that most free mages are deranged blood mages driven to the pursuit of more power by their blood lust and the temptations of demons.

They are the most dangerous. Not the templars.

And the templars a started a war that is more destructive then anything the mages have done. templars need to die period.

[The Baconer]

Elton John is dead wrote...
In the example of Redcliffe, one mage destroyed (or almost destroyed if you defended it) an entire town. Even if it was unintentionally. Even if 98% of mages didn't pratice blood magic or managed themselves correctly it only takes a few (that 2%) to summon a horde of demons or undead.

I'd imagine such a thing would be much harder to accomplish in a town populated only by mages.

[Veruin]

The Baconer wrote...

I'd imagine such a thing would be much harder to accomplish in a town populated only by mages.

I hear rumours that such a thing happened in a tower full of mages.

[addiction21]

DKJaigen wrote...

If you wish to understand and defeat  the demonic invasion you cannot act like a templar.  Have you played X-com? that is how you defeat a stronger enemy.

Hope they throw scrubs at you while you build your forces and create new advanced technologies and tactics until you can run the final mission and win the day?

Sorry but no the Aliens in a Xcom game could turn any Xcom base into a smoking hole in the ground from the start but then that would be a ****ty game.

[The Baconer]

Veruin wrote...
I hear rumours that such a thing happened in a tower full of mages.

A single mage falling into possession and killing everyone? Tell me more.

[BlueMagitek]

addiction21 wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

If you wish to understand and defeat  the demonic invasion you cannot act like a templar.  Have you played X-com? that is how you defeat a stronger enemy.

Hope they throw scrubs at you while you build your forces and create new advanced technologies and tactics until you can run the final mission and win the day?

Sorry but no the Aliens in a Xcom game could turn any Xcom base into a smoking hole in the ground from the start but then that would be a ****ty game.

In the older versions of the game, they would invade your base.

[dragonflight288]

@ Elton John is Dead & DKJaigen

The whole issue is so complicated that blame cannot be solely laid on one side or the other.

Elton, using Redcliff as an example as to what mages will do if given freedom simply doesn't work. Jowan was desperate, had nowhere to go, lost all his friends and is generally incompetent, and had been captured by the Templars. But Loghain saves him and promises to set matters right with the Circle in exchange for a service, which in this case is poisoning Arl Eamon.

But Connor getting possessed wasn't even fully Connor's conscientious choice since he has a distinct lack of knowledge on magic, hadn't been trained, and was desperate to help his father, and he couldn't ask his mentor (Jowan) for aid because Jowan was arrested. And if Isolde wasn't so desperate to keep her son out of the circle for fear of losing him, the shame of having a mage in the family being known, then those events wouldn't have happened. Or if she sought out and hired an apostate on her own without reliance on Loghain, Jowan would never have poisoned Eamon and the events wouldn't have happened.

There's a lot more factors, but I'm tired and don't want to get into them.

DK, whether we mage supporters like it or not, fact is plenty of mages have shown that they can't be trusted, and most mages are painted with the same brush as a result of their actions, not only by gamers in real life but also by characters in the games, and that is a factor that must be taken into account.

Mages declaring Independence, which has happened, hasn't solved mages problems (they're still being hunted and they are still in danger of possession) or made them more accepted by non-mages.

Both sides have problems, but neither can take all the blame.

[DKJaigen]

addiction21 wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

If you wish to understand and defeat  the demonic invasion you cannot act like a templar.  Have you played X-com? that is how you defeat a stronger enemy.

Hope they throw scrubs at you while you build your forces and create new advanced technologies and tactics until you can run the final mission and win the day?

Sorry but no the Aliens in a Xcom game could turn any Xcom base into a smoking hole in the ground from the start but then that would be a ****ty game.

every game starts like that. Because i dont remember fighting dragons in BG1 as soon as i left Candlekeep. However if you need to conquer or uplift humanity its important to capture as much resources intact and its likely that the **** in DAI could likely do far more damage. 

[DKJaigen]

dragonflight288 wrote...

@ Elton John is Dead & DKJaigen

The whole issue is so complicated that blame cannot be solely laid on one side or the other.

Elton, using Redcliff as an example as to what mages will do if given freedom simply doesn't work. Jowan was desperate, had nowhere to go, lost all his friends and is generally incompetent, and had been captured by the Templars. But Loghain saves him and promises to set matters right with the Circle in exchange for a service, which in this case is poisoning Arl Eamon.

But Connor getting possessed wasn't even fully Connor's conscientious choice since he has a distinct lack of knowledge on magic, hadn't been trained, and was desperate to help his father, and he couldn't ask his mentor (Jowan) for aid because Jowan was arrested. And if Isolde wasn't so desperate to keep her son out of the circle for fear of losing him, the shame of having a mage in the family being known, then those events wouldn't have happened. Or if she sought out and hired an apostate on her own without reliance on Loghain, Jowan would never have poisoned Eamon and the events wouldn't have happened.

There's a lot more factors, but I'm tired and don't want to get into them.

DK, whether we mage supporters like it or not, fact is plenty of mages have shown that they can't be trusted, and most mages are painted with the same brush as a result of their actions, not only by gamers in real life but also by characters in the games, and that is a factor that must be taken into account.

Mages declaring Independence, which has happened, hasn't solved mages problems (they're still being hunted and they are still in danger of possession) or made them more accepted by non-mages.

Both sides have problems, but neither can take all the blame.

Right now im not pro mage i need to see how the mage faction(s) will develop.. Right now however any templar that supported lambert is death meat as far as im concerned. The actions of the templars are criminal in asunder that marks them as traitors not only to the chantry but also to Orlais

[The Elder King]

Why the templars should be considered traitors by Orlais?

[DKJaigen]

hhh89 wrote...

Why the templars should be considered traitors by Orlais?

Because starting a war that will no doubt will severly damage Orlais while Orlais was gracious enough to house the templars within their country is treason.

[The Elder King]

DKJaigen wrote...

Because starting a war that will no doubt will severly damage Orlais while Orlais was gracious enough to house the templars within their country is treason.

For this reason, they should be considered traitors by every country where the war will be present, not only Orlais.
Regardless, I disagree. The templars weren't part of the Orlesian army. They were free to declaring war to the mages as they wish. Of course, Orlais has every right to drive them out of their borders if they wish (sadly Orlais is busy in its own civil war), but the former isn't betraying the latter. A betrayal is based on a relationship between two person/groups. There was none between templars and Orlais. 
There isn't even a betrayal of the templars to the Chantry, since the Nevarran Accord established the templars/Seekers as being under the Chantry in exchange of the former having the role of guarding mages. With the Chantry changing their stance and helping mages escape, as well as agreeig to their indipendance, the templars have every right to revoke the Accord.
I'm not sided with either the templars or the Chantry (as well as the mages), but there isn't any betrayal involved. The two groups grown to have different stances over mages, making the cooperation they had impossible to mantain.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
And the templars a started a war that is more destructive then anything the mages have done. templars need to die period.

The Darkspawn want to say hi.

Mages are the biggest blight the world of TheDas faced. And yet they still tolerate them - even tough it would be much safer and simpler for the world to just kill them.
But no, that is not enough.

The mage-templar was is nothing but a drop in a bucket.
Not nearly as big as you think it is (mages are an extreeme minority and a lot of them don't wnat to fight the templars, making that minority even smaller)

Compared to blights or qunari invasions, this war barely registers.

[Lotion Soronarr]

BlueMagitek wrote...
In the older versions of the game, they would invade your base.

I think what he meant that realisticly, the aliens should be able to nuke the X-Com base from orbit.

A space-faring race can easily kill a more primitive one. Strap some boosters onto a giant rock and fling it at the planet. BOOOM

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...
In the older versions of the game, they would invade your base.

I think what he meant that realisticly, the aliens should be able to nuke the X-Com base from orbit.

A space-faring race can easily kill a more primitive one. Strap some boosters onto a giant rock and fling it at the planet. BOOOM

If the aliens were overpowered, there would be no point in fighting them or better to say to develop the game at the first place. 

Modifié par Kaiser Arian, 21 décembre 2013 - 12:41 .