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The *I support the Templars* Thread V2


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#4351
Master Warder Z_

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The Baconer wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...
And you can always get lyrium from the carta.


You can always get it if you have the money. Since the Templars are now essentially a bunch of wandering brigrands, all of their expenses are now out of pocket, and they have fewer options for making steady income. While I  certainly believe there are some who have enough money to keep paying for Lyrium in some form, it's probably likely that many turned to red Lyrium, or perhaps bought it as a cheaper alternative, to get their fix.

Or maybe their suppliers could even be "cutting" normal Lyrium with red Lyrium.


Or you could consider that since they just need the cheapest form of lyrium they could just by that in bulk through the Carta? The stuff was what...5 bits per unit back in DAO, even if the Carta hiked it up by thirty percent that isn't damaging to any outfit that can afford to sustain operations in thirteen diffrent locations at the same time.

These aren't mages, they don't need the highest grade of lyrium for their potions and elixers; They need Lyrium Dust.

Which is as i said before; the cheapest form it comes in :P 

#4352
SeekerOfLight

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The Baconer wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...
And you can always get lyrium from the carta.


You
can always get it if you have the money. Since the Templars are now
essentially a bunch of wandering brigrands, all of their expenses are
now out of pocket, and they have fewer options for making steady income.
While I  certainly believe there are some who have enough money to keep
paying for Lyrium in some form, it's probably likely that many turned
to red Lyrium, or perhaps bought it as a cheaper alternative, to get
their fix.

Or maybe their suppliers could even be "cutting" normal Lyrium with red Lyrium.



Woah... I'll admit ever since playing my mage origin (human and elf) my view of templars hasn't been very positive. I mean the idea of what are essentially drug addicts having control over life and death for sentient beings was pretty scary for me. But damn if the last post didn't scare me more. lol

Modifié par helo89, 21 décembre 2013 - 11:11 .


#4353
Master Warder Z_

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helo89 wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...
And you can always get lyrium from the carta.


You
can always get it if you have the money. Since the Templars are now
essentially a bunch of wandering brigrands, all of their expenses are
now out of pocket, and they have fewer options for making steady income.
While I  certainly believe there are some who have enough money to keep
paying for Lyrium in some form, it's probably likely that many turned
to red Lyrium, or perhaps bought it as a cheaper alternative, to get
their fix.

Or maybe their suppliers could even be "cutting" normal Lyrium with red Lyrium.



Woah... I'll admit ever since playing my mage origin (human and elf) my view of templars hasn't been very positive. I mean the idea of what are essentially drug addicts having control over life and death for sentient beings was pretty scary for me. But damn if the last post didn't scare me more. lol


That is one of my theories for the presence of the Red Templars.

Even if i do find the "drug addict" remarks sort of insulting to the faction i favor within its own thread.

#4354
Ashelsu

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I hope red lyrium would be explained, and not just like lol all templars are now indoctrinated.
I've read Asunder recently, and isn't Evangeline an abomination now? So how is she model templar (not even counting her dubious behavior before that, such as protecting a demon from her superior officer)?

#4355
SeekerOfLight

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Master Warder Z wrote...

helo89 wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...
And you can always get lyrium from the carta.


You
can always get it if you have the money. Since the Templars are now
essentially a bunch of wandering brigrands, all of their expenses are
now out of pocket, and they have fewer options for making steady income.
While I  certainly believe there are some who have enough money to keep
paying for Lyrium in some form, it's probably likely that many turned
to red Lyrium, or perhaps bought it as a cheaper alternative, to get
their fix.

Or maybe their suppliers could even be "cutting" normal Lyrium with red Lyrium.



Woah... I'll admit ever since playing my mage origin (human and elf) my view of templars hasn't been very positive. I mean the idea of what are essentially drug addicts having control over life and death for sentient beings was pretty scary for me. But damn if the last post didn't scare me more. lol


That is one of my theories for the presence of the Red Templars.

Even if i do find the "drug addict" remarks sort of insulting to the faction i favor within its own thread.





Sorry, didn't mean to be insulting, i'm pro-mage and some of the stuff some of the mage charas get up to make me seriously reconsider my support (looking at you Anders ;P) so sorry about didn't mean to offend.

#4356
Master Warder Z_

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Ashelsu wrote...

I hope red lyrium would be explained, and not just like lol all templars are now indoctrinated.
I've read Asunder recently, and isn't Evangeline an abomination now? So how is she model templar (not even counting her dubious behavior before that, such as protecting a demon from her superior officer)?


She isn't even close to a model templar, its just a behavior set that weakens the order and that is what the mage supporters view as "ideal".

#4357
The Baconer

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Master Warder Z wrote...
Or you could consider that since they just need the cheapest form of lyrium they could just by that in bulk through the Carta? The stuff was what...5 bits per unit back in DAO, even if the Carta hiked it up by thirty percent that isn't damaging to any outfit that can afford to sustain operations in thirteen diffrent locations at the same time.

These aren't mages, they don't need the highest grade of lyrium for their potions and elixers; They need Lyrium Dust.

Which is as i said before; the cheapest form it comes in :P


Lore-wise, I don't know if it's been stated how much it costs, so I wouldn't make an assumption based on that. But, assuming that somehow red Lyrium is cheaper or easier to obtain than regular Lyrium (although I don't now how that would be the case... So I'm not sure how much stock I would put into the "cutting" theory) it would only make sense to keep the prices the same, while mixing it with materials that make manufacturing it cheaper. Or maybe they could be using it for its potency, where Templars would be returning more often for doses than regular Lyrium.

Aside from that, where do you think their money was coming from? Just because they worked under the Chantry doesn't mean that they were independently wealthy as an organization. What sources of income did they have? There was support from the Chantry, which is now gone, goods produced and sold by the Formari/Tranquil, and that now too is probably all gone. I wouldn't be surprised if each state gave partial funding to the Circle in the area through the revenue it made in taxation, but since the Templars are no longer affiliated with the Chantry, that would make them a paramilitary organization operating in Andrastian nations.

So I can only guess that whatever money their making now is either left-over from before the schism, or donated by governments and citizens sympathetic to their cause... I guess they could also have connections through Templar members who are of noble blood. But overall I would say obtaining Lyrium is going to be a lot harder than it was before.

Modifié par The Baconer, 21 décembre 2013 - 11:27 .


#4358
Reaverwind

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Ashelsu wrote...

I hope red lyrium would be explained, and not just like lol all templars are now indoctrinated.
I've read Asunder recently, and isn't Evangeline an abomination now? So how is she model templar (not even counting her dubious behavior before that, such as protecting a demon from her superior officer)?


Ha, a model templar she is not, and if she's in the game, I hope we get the oppurtunity to ram a sword through her. One thing the Order is in dire need of is some friggin standards for recruitment.

#4359
Master Warder Z_

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The Baconer wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
Or you could consider that since they just need the cheapest form of lyrium they could just by that in bulk through the Carta? The stuff was what...5 bits per unit back in DAO, even if the Carta hiked it up by thirty percent that isn't damaging to any outfit that can afford to sustain operations in thirteen diffrent locations at the same time.

These aren't mages, they don't need the highest grade of lyrium for their potions and elixers; They need Lyrium Dust.

Which is as i said before; the cheapest form it comes in :P


Lore-wise, I don't know if it's been stated how much it costs, so I wouldn't make an assumption based on that. But, assuming that somehow red Lyrium is cheaper or easier to obtain than regular Lyrium (although I don't now how that would be the case... So I'm not sure how much stock I would put into the "cutting" theory) it would only make sense to keep the prices the same, while mixing it with materials that make manufacturing it cheaper. Or maybe they could be using it for its potency, where Templars would be returning more often for doses than regular Lyrium.

Aside from that, where do you think their money was coming from? Just because they worked under the Chantry doesn't mean that they were independently wealthy as an organization. What sources of income did they have? There was support from the Chantry, which is now gone, goods produced and sold by the Formari/Tranquil, and that now too is probably all gone. I wouldn't be surprised if each state gave partial funding to the Circle in the area through the revenue it made in taxation, but since the Templars are no longer affiliated with the Chantry, that would make them a paramilitary organization operating in Andrastian nations.

So I can only guess that whatever money their making now is either left-over from before the schism, or donated by governments and citizens sympathetic to their cause... I guess they could also have connections through Templar members who are of noble blood. But overall I would say obtaining Lyrium is going to be a lot harder than it was before.


A fair: point the economics of it wasn't my primary concern regardless but my point was in fact.

They don't the grade of lyrium that could buy you a suit of armor for every man in a division, they need basic lyrium nothing overly expensive.

Considering the Templar Order owned property through out Thedas, note the distinction of "Templar" Property that it owned independent of the chantry, that gives the agrument that the order it self was well off regardless of support from the chantry, admittedly you cannot overstate their assistance but the fact of the matter is.

The order was buying up equipment and supplies with out chantry approval or resources for years apparently, and considering order was also more then capable of doling out money to the champion in kirkwall and Fereldan that certainly didn't come from the chantry given the nature of what it was rewarded from doing?

Well clearly the order has deep pockets, Perhaps it comes from the sources as you described, perhaps they collect tithes from usage of their services elsewhere when not guarding mages.

My point is ultimately however this, Even if the Order was only moderately wealthy by it self, it has shown through clear example after example that it has the connections, resources, numbers and money to wage this war that every keeps trying to deny them being capable of waging.

Modifié par Master Warder Z , 21 décembre 2013 - 11:36 .


#4360
The Baconer

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Master Warder Z wrote...
My point is ultimately however this, Even if the Order was only moderately wealthy by it self, it has shown through clear example after example that it has the connections, resources, numbers and money to wage this war that every keeps trying to deny them being capable of waging.


Yes, as you say, this much is clear, but I am still interested in how it will be elaborated on in Inquisition (assuming that it will be) as to what money comes from the organization itself and how much of it was simply appropriated from their outside funding.

#4361
Master Warder Z_

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The Baconer wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
My point is ultimately however this, Even if the Order was only moderately wealthy by it self, it has shown through clear example after example that it has the connections, resources, numbers and money to wage this war that every keeps trying to deny them being capable of waging.


Yes, as you say, this much is clear, but I am still interested in how it will be elaborated on in Inquisition (assuming that it will be) as to what money comes from the organization itself and how much of it was simply appropriated from their outside funding.


Mmm; Well i suppose you could also make the agrument for where are the mages getting their lyrium now? Whom is supporting them at the forefront of scenes or from behind them? Unlike the Templars they to my knowledge have only one example of a mage being tied the carta in Fereldan and that was pre broken circle.

But given how criminal enterpises operate i would assume that the Carta would be providing both sides lyrium if the dev's came up with a lack of idea's in how to show each had their own unique supply and resource networks.

Well that likely will be at least a minor focus within the game, with the templars having to rely upon either their own stores or outside influences to support operation but my own opinion is that they would be fairly heavily supported through out white thedas espeically in the midst of the mage rebellion but the veil tears might change that.

You likely would even have attempts between the two parties to cease their war until the crisis was resolved, much like the Geth and Quarian Conflict of Mass effect.

#4362
Lord Raijin

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Master Warder Z wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Just because we see red Templar's does not mean that every other Templar out there are snorting up red lyrium to get their next fix. They're bad Templar's and and than they're the good ones, like Evangeline,Thrask and Emeric.

The Templar Order is not a colossal failure, just poorly manage by the wrong set of people. I can only hope that Cullen could wake the hell up and at least try to get the Order back in good health.


Two of the three templars mentioned here are colossal failures as templars.

Trask is a shining example of why you must never befreind those within your charges, there must be clear and defined boundaries between mage and templar and his fate further reinforces that point.

I won't even bother with Evangeline as the second you start sleeping with the charge, things sort of go out the window like common sense and rule of law


I disagree.

The 2 templars I've mention are not colossal failures, and they did not fail their duty as Templars. They were driven by what was right because after all Templar's are SUPPOSE to help mages.

Thrask was a senior member of the Templars, even prior to Meredith being the Knight Commander. When he indicated that things were different prior to Meredith rulings it means that Mages and Templar's were getting a long with each other, and that the city wasn't saturated with blood mages. Templar's and Mages can in fact be friends. Hawkes father befriended a Templar, and he honored that man by naming his son after him.

At no point whatsoever did Evangeline started sleeping around with Rhys. In fact she even went as far as shove her sword's hilt against his head thus rendering him unconscious.

#4363
Lord Raijin

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The Baconer wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...
And you can always get lyrium from the carta.


You can always get it if you have the money. Since the Templars are now essentially a bunch of wandering brigrands, all of their expenses are now out of pocket, and they have fewer options for making steady income. While I  certainly believe there are some who have enough money to keep paying for Lyrium in some form, it's probably likely that many turned to red Lyrium, or perhaps bought it as a cheaper alternative, to get their fix.

Or maybe their suppliers could even be "cutting" normal Lyrium with red Lyrium.


An addict always turns to life of crime to get their next fix.

#4364
TK514

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Lord Raijin wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Just because we see red Templar's does not mean that every other Templar out there are snorting up red lyrium to get their next fix. They're bad Templar's and and than they're the good ones, like Evangeline,Thrask and Emeric.

The Templar Order is not a colossal failure, just poorly manage by the wrong set of people. I can only hope that Cullen could wake the hell up and at least try to get the Order back in good health.


Two of the three templars mentioned here are colossal failures as templars.

Trask is a shining example of why you must never befreind those within your charges, there must be clear and defined boundaries between mage and templar and his fate further reinforces that point.

I won't even bother with Evangeline as the second you start sleeping with the charge, things sort of go out the window like common sense and rule of law


I disagree.

The 2 templars I've mention are not colossal failures, and they did not fail their duty as Templars. They were driven by what was right because after all Templar's are SUPPOSE to help mages.

Thrask was a senior member of the Templars, even prior to Meredith being the Knight Commander. When he indicated that things were different prior to Meredith rulings it means that Mages and Templar's were getting a long with each other, and that the city wasn't saturated with blood mages. Templar's and Mages can in fact be friends. Hawkes father befriended a Templar, and he honored that man by naming his son after him.

At no point whatsoever did Evangeline started sleeping around with Rhys. In fact she even went as far as shove her sword's hilt against his head thus rendering him unconscious.



I'm sorry, but 'letting your charge escape to become an apostate' is the very definition of failure for a Templar.  Ser Carver might have been a nice guy, but he was an awful Templar.  Ser Thrask was even worse.  Not only did he allow a mage to escape, his daughter, but he had several mages he was directly working with, against the Templar Order in Kirkwall, who became blood mages and abominations.  And Evangeline specifically and knowingly betrayed the Order, then became an abomination herself.

You couldn't ask for three better examples of complete and total failure as Templars.

#4365
The Elder King

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Nevermind

Modifié par hhh89, 22 décembre 2013 - 01:25 .


#4366
Hellion Rex

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hhh89 wrote...

@TK514: Two, not three.

Dare I ask, which one you think was not a failure?

#4367
The Elder King

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eluvianix wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@TK514: Two, not three.

Dare I ask, which one you think was not a failure?

 I didn't mean that they were failure. I forgot he talked about Carver, so I thought he should've said two.

Modifié par hhh89, 22 décembre 2013 - 01:29 .


#4368
Afro_Explosion

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@TK514 So to be a decent templar in your eyes you have to a horrible human being that shows mages no pity.

#4369
Hazegurl

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TK514 wrote...
I'm sorry, but 'letting your charge escape to become an apostate' is the very definition of failure for a Templar.  Ser Carver might have been a nice guy, but he was an awful Templar.  Ser Thrask was even worse.  Not only did he allow a mage to escape, his daughter, but he had several mages he was directly working with, against the Templar Order in Kirkwall, who became blood mages and abominations.  And Evangeline specifically and knowingly betrayed the Order, then became an abomination herself.

You couldn't ask for three better examples of complete and total failure as Templars.



I find it hilarious whenever most people make a list of "good" Templars they always name those who side with mages. Image IPB

So far Greagoir  is th eonly name that belongs on the list.
Lambert also, to a certain degree.

#4370
Hellion Rex

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Hazegurl wrote...

TK514 wrote...
I'm sorry, but 'letting your charge escape to become an apostate' is the very definition of failure for a Templar.  Ser Carver might have been a nice guy, but he was an awful Templar.  Ser Thrask was even worse.  Not only did he allow a mage to escape, his daughter, but he had several mages he was directly working with, against the Templar Order in Kirkwall, who became blood mages and abominations.  And Evangeline specifically and knowingly betrayed the Order, then became an abomination herself.

You couldn't ask for three better examples of complete and total failure as Templars.



I find it hilarious whenever most people make a list of "good" Templars they always name those who side with mages. Image IPB

So far Greagoir  is th eonly name that belongs on the list.
Lambert also, to a certain degree.

Ah, but Lambert was a Seeker. ;)
Also, it depends what you mean by "good".

Modifié par eluvianix, 22 décembre 2013 - 01:32 .


#4371
SgtSteel91

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I think Ser Otto Alrik was a failure what with his ****** "Tranquil Solution"

#4372
Hellion Rex

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SgtSteel91 wrote...

I think Ser Otto Alrik was a failure what with his ****** "Tranquil Solution"


Well, Alrik was a tad bit loopy.

#4373
Afro_Explosion

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SgtSteel91 wrote...

I think Ser Otto Alrik was a failure what with his ****** "Tranquil Solution"

Was I the only one who got a third reich vibe from him and his solution. 

Modifié par mx_keep13, 22 décembre 2013 - 01:54 .


#4374
Hellion Rex

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mx_keep13 wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

I think Ser Otto Alrik was a failure what with his ****** "Tranquil Solution"

Was I the only one who got a **** vibe from him and his solution. 


Nope. Very similar "solutions".

#4375
TK514

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SgtSteel91 wrote...

I think Ser Otto Alrik was a failure what with his ****** "Tranquil Solution"


He was an even bigger failure as a Templar than Ser Carver, Thrask, or Evangeline.  He defied the orders of his direct superior and waged an illegal progrom against the people he was supposed to protect and contain.  He abused his position in the worst possible way, and, frankly, I think the death my Hawke meeted out was too good for him.  Had there been an option, I would have preferred to capture him, put him on trial, have everything of meaning stripped from him before he was expelled from the Order and given over to the secular authorities for whatever punishment they deemed appropriate.  I would have seen him humiliated and destroyed in every possible way before he died.

He would have been held up as an example to others for Ages to come of what not to do, and the price for emulating his crimes.

Modifié par TK514, 22 décembre 2013 - 01:48 .