4643 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

helo89 wrote...

Quick question. Can the tranquil leave the circles? since technically they aren't mages anymore.

From the Wiki on the subject:

"The Tranquil are no longer considered to be mages and are free to leave the Circle. Most remain, primarily because it's logical: they're not welcome elsewhere, and can serve in a productive capacity in the Circle and live comfortably. Some Tranquil choose to leave, but such cases are rare."

[MisterJB]

Youth4Ever wrote...
Your mage and my mage, man, they'd get it done right. 

Depends on your definition of "right" and what you understand needs to get done, I suppose.
They'd certainly do it in a much subtler and smarter way than Fiona, that's for sure. She's all anger and self-rigtheousness.

[MisterJB]

helo89 wrote...
#1. The harrowing - If you aren't powerful enough or you get tricked you die or get lobotomized. Put yourself in that situation what do you do. Also not effective e.g. Uldred was a senior enchanter

It doesn't make someone immune to possession but it does help weed out the strong from the weak.
That is to say, those who have a chance of spending their entire lives without being possessed and those who just wouldn't stand a chance.
It could be refined but it shouldn't just be done away with.

#2. The templars and chantry are the be and end all of all authority for mages. There is no other official ways for them to vent their grievances.

Anders did say that the mages in Kirkwall were being refused appearances at court which suggests that mages could appeal to the monarch.
It's just that Meredith was as powerful as the Viscount.

#3. Mages are essentially treated as criminals, even though the only crime they've commited is being born. The chantry creates a self fulfilling prophecy, where they treat their charges as all potential bloodmages, who then turn to blood magic because they feel they have no other options. (imo, I think that would be dumb and really shortsided, but eh)

They aren't treated as criminals; they have harsh restrictions placed upon them in order to account for the great threat they pose to themselves and those around them. You and I also have restrictions placed upon us everyday; they just aren't as strict because we don't have the ability to kill people with our brains nor are we potentials hellgates.
They aren't equally; and they shouldn't because they are not equal with non-mages; but they also aren't treated as criminals anymore than any other person in Thedas is.

like I said before I think that templars have a role in safeguarding the world from mages, but the Circle as an institution needs to be reorganised.

Not untrue but I suspect we'd disagree on what that reorganisation would entail.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I said in the Dragon Age GAMES, and was careful to phrase it that way. And in the rest of Dragon Age lore, the Architect's original plan, which he seems to have abandoned by the time of Awakening, is the only thhing worse than the Tranquil Solution. And that's really only in scale of people it effects. In essense the two plans are the same thing: change people into something else to ensure peace. And in a practical perspective, it is a sound move to slice the tendons in everybody's wrists so that they can't weild weapons to kill people, yet we don't do that.

...

That ain't practical at all.

They couldn't wield anything (including tools, spoons, forks, etc..) amd the scale of danger is hardly the same.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Lotion Soronnar: It isn't practical at all really.

I disagree. With both you and DKJaigen  (what a surprise).

The population of mages will be safe and you'd have planety of tranquil to make magical weapons and armor.
You'd need far fewer templars, thus far fewer resoruces wasted there and more on the lands and people in general.

Meredith should not only have refused Alrik - but should have dragged him into the square and publicly hung him for even suggesting to undermind the nations of Thedas. His "solution" was seditious and if I were Meredith I would have proclaimed him to be in collusion with the Qunari - or the Imperium.

Bollocks.

[Afro_Explosion]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Lotion Soronnar: It isn't practical at all really.

I disagree. With both you and DKJaigen  (what a surprise).

The population of mages will be safe and you'd have planety of tranquil to make magical weapons and armor.
You'd need far fewer templars, thus far fewer resoruces wasted there and more on the lands and people in general.

Meredith should not only have refused Alrik - but should have dragged him into the square and publicly hung him for even suggesting to undermind the nations of Thedas. His "solution" was seditious and if I were Meredith I would have proclaimed him to be in collusion with the Qunari - or the Imperium.

Bollocks.

I doubt the mages would take forced tranquility lying down and  no doubt quite a few templars would disagree with such drastic action, only the most hardline chantry and templar officials would suggest this and the majority will shoot them down every time.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Not even the most hardline Templar officials (Meredith) agreed with the Tranquil Solution.

[TK514]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Namely because the entirity of those leading the present rebellion would either be dead or tranqui.

Nah, the way she's written, Magical Super Awesome Fiona would just cure herself of Tranquility.

[TheKomandorShepard]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Not even the most hardline Templar officials (Meredith) agreed with the Tranquil Solution.

And she burned city along with mages mahaha i always wondered why she didn't allowed that when she cleary reveals in third act that she is in it just to kill mages insanity or just dumb plot?

[Zerker]

Burn the witch, kill the mutant, purge the unclean.

That is the only way to live.

Modifié par Maddok900, 23 décembre 2013 - 05:15 .

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Not even the most hardline Templar officials (Meredith) agreed with the Tranquil Solution.

Just felt it more appropriate to simply slaughter all the mages instead.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Not even the most hardline Templar officials (Meredith) agreed with the Tranquil Solution.

Just felt it more appropriate to simply slaughter all the mages instead.

To be fair, Meredith was a tad bit batsh*t in the end.

[Thomas Andresen]

eluvianix wrote...

To be fair, Meredith was a tad bit batsh*t in the end.

To be honest, I found Meredith to be unstable from the get-go.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Not even the most hardline Templar officials (Meredith) agreed with the Tranquil Solution.

Just felt it more appropriate to simply slaughter all the mages instead.

Three years, a lot of blood mages, and a lot of Red Lyrium influence later, yes. Your point?

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
The demons are interested in non mages...however mages are a much better target.

So in all those thousands of years where the demons have held NO INTEREST AT ALL in mundanes, has just been them warming up to the idea? No... That is not the reason. Mages are the only living beings that hold any particular interest for the demons. The only other thing the demons care about is BEING in the physical world, but they don't care about wether it is in a living being, a rock or a corpse, as long as they are in the physical world. But mundanes holds no particular interest for demons, beyond the same interest a normal rock would hold for them.

Your making no sense what so ever. an immortal being leaves a place where he is basioally a god to just be in another world where most mortal comforts have no use for him and he is greatly weakend? By chanty's own dogma the maker the demons prey upon mortal because of their ability of imagination to create things and i belleve it in this case. The difference between mages and normal people is that they aware in the fade and can be possesed by a demon. But with the veil torn open normal people are just going to be part menu for the demons as mages. In fact mages are trained to withstand possesion its very likely that weaker demons target normal people first over mages.

And yes demons possess trees and corpses because they have no will to fight back and looks as easy prey. Untill the demon realises he is inside a prison and goes ape****.

[DKJaigen]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

@Komandor Im starting to think you want
to kill everyone then rule the world from their ashes, thats why you
want to get rid of mages less competition. 

No i want kill things that are big danger for me and well world destruction is bad for business so i will use everything to be in charge and to stay things that way...

So to stop the possibility of destruction by mages, you'll cause destruction on mages? This sounds awfully familiar. Oh yeah, Mass Effect's Reapers had the same idea.

No to stop peoples who will cause destruction of world what is rather very damn bad for my goals and business i will kill peoples who can cause it rather logical don't you think?

But what if you cause the destruction of the world would you kill yourself

As far i remember inquisitor isn't doomsday and can't destroy everything unlike mages who proved more than few times that their action can be destructive for environmental even if mage isn't abomnation.

DKJaigen wrote...

It
will change nothing.. demonic invasions , dragon flights and blights
will happen regardless if you kill all mages. You are cutting your own
hand because you fear papercuts. its not a wise course.

No demonic invasions won't happen as veil need be open and are 3 ways to demon could get to thedas
easy-possess mages
very easy-summon them and than only mage can do
extremely difficult-cross veil that can be weakened in 2 ways
very easy-by mages
very hard-by wars

Dragons as far i remember most was choped by non-mages and few survived mostly doing nothing...

Blight yes but thanks to mages and well lets say that use nuke to night with monsters that were created by nuclear explosion isn't very smart idea

So no mages are no hand starting from their pathetic combat skills ending on that they are nukes that will hurt only me so nope
advantage<<<<<<<disadvantage even tranquil at ostagar said that. 

So your plans are worthless.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
The demons are interested in non mages...however mages are a much better target.

So in all those thousands of years where the demons have held NO INTEREST AT ALL in mundanes, has just been them warming up to the idea? No... That is not the reason. Mages are the only living beings that hold any particular interest for the demons. The only other thing the demons care about is BEING in the physical world, but they don't care about wether it is in a living being, a rock or a corpse, as long as they are in the physical world. But mundanes holds no particular interest for demons, beyond the same interest a normal rock would hold for them.

Your making no sense what so ever. an immortal being leaves a place where he is basioally a god to just be in another world where most mortal comforts have no use for him and he is greatly weakend? By chanty's own dogma the maker the demons prey upon mortal because of their ability of imagination to create things and i belleve it in this case. The difference between mages and normal people is that they aware in the fade and can be possesed by a demon. But with the veil torn open normal people are just going to be part menu for the demons as mages. In fact mages are trained to withstand possesion its very likely that weaker demons target normal people first over mages.

And yes demons possess trees and corpses because they have no will to fight back and looks as easy prey. Untill the demon realises he is inside a prison and goes ape****.

Nothing of what you say is supported by lore. But that is nothing new.

Mundanes holds no interest for the demons beyond any other physical thing, such as a rock or a tree, a wolf or a bear. A mundane is simply another way to experience the mortal world, which they so desire. A mage on the other hand, holds a particular interest to a demon, because they offer a unique oppertunity.

Demons are not "basically gods" in the Fade. The Fade itself follows an entirely different set of rules compared to Thedas. ANY being who walks the Fade can will anything into existence. However, the only beings from the physical realm to do so consciously are the Mages, which no doubt is also one of the reason the demons holds such interest in mages.
Mages are the ONLY beings the demon will actively seek to possess. Otherwise the demon will have somehow already had to crossed the veil. And more than like if you gave the demon a choice, it would always choose to possess the mage.
And a demon possess a corpse, tree or rock because they fail to realize the difference between an inamitae object and a living thing. Not because they are "easy prey".

[Lord Raijin]

IMO R.o.T seems to be far more dangerous than you would expect, especially since Alrik seem to have some form of control over his tranquil victims back in DA2. Sure you can take away mages magic talents by severing their connection to the fade, but as a result from doing this you also decapitate their emotions thus becoming an emotionless psychopathic beings. Since emotions plays a huge part of our lives, and to help us make rightful decisions without emotions you can't possibly make these rightful decisions.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lord Raijin wrote...

IMO R.o.T seems to be far more dangerous than you would expect, especially since Alrik seem to have some form of control over his tranquil victims back in DA2. Sure you can take away mages magic talents by severing their connection to the fade, but as a result from doing this you also decapitate their emotions thus becoming an emotionless psychopathic beings. Since emotions plays a huge part of our lives, and to help us make rightful decisions without emotions you can't possibly make these rightful decisions.

Since psycopaths are driven by egocentrism and a general desire for self-fulfillment, Tranquil does not become psychopaths. They become beings driven purely by logic and rational thought. Unless you claim that all kinds of empathy and synpathy are purely irrational and illogical, then the Tranquil are not above such thoughts. They simply approach them differently to normal human-beings.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I said in the Dragon Age GAMES, and was careful to phrase it that way. And in the rest of Dragon Age lore, the Architect's original plan, which he seems to have abandoned by the time of Awakening, is the only thhing worse than the Tranquil Solution. And that's really only in scale of people it effects. In essense the two plans are the same thing: change people into something else to ensure peace. And in a practical perspective, it is a sound move to slice the tendons in everybody's wrists so that they can't weild weapons to kill people, yet we don't do that.

...

That ain't practical at all.

They couldn't wield anything (including tools, spoons, forks, etc..) amd the scale of danger is hardly the same.

That last line was supposed to not make sense. I was using that to show how illogical the Tranquil Solution is in my opinion by giving another crazy example. Both make people less dangerous, yet also strips away somthing important in their lives. In my case, the ability to use their hands and in the Tranquil Solution, the ability to feel emotion.

[DKJaigen]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]cjones91 wrote...
The demons are interested in non mages...however mages are a much better target.
[/quote]
So in all those thousands of years where the demons have held NO INTEREST AT ALL in mundanes, has just been them warming up to the idea? No... That is not the reason. Mages are the only living beings that hold any particular interest for the demons. The only other thing the demons care about is BEING in the physical world, but they don't care about wether it is in a living being, a rock or a corpse, as long as they are in the physical world. But mundanes holds no particular interest for demons, beyond the same interest a normal rock would hold for them.

[/quote]

Your making no sense what so ever. an immortal being leaves a place where he is basioally a god to just be in another world where most mortal comforts have no use for him and he is greatly weakend? By chanty's own dogma the maker the demons prey upon mortal because of their ability of imagination to create things and i belleve it in this case. The difference between mages and normal people is that they aware in the fade and can be possesed by a demon. But with the veil torn open normal people are just going to be part menu for the demons as mages. In fact mages are trained to withstand possesion its very likely that weaker demons target normal people first over mages.

And yes demons possess trees and corpses because they have no will to fight back and looks as easy prey. Untill the demon realises he is inside a prison and goes ape****.


[/quote]
Nothing of what you say is supported by lore. But that is nothing new.

[quote
Mundanes holds no interest for the demons beyond any other physical thing, such as a rock or a tree, a wolf or a bear. A mundane is simply another way to experience the mortal world, which they so desire. A mage on the other hand, holds a particular interest to a demon, because they offer a unique oppertunity.
[/quote]

Once again you gave no motive why the demons wants to experience the mortal world. According to justice many spirits see the mortal world as something that is rather disgusting. so you come tho this

Codex entry: The Maker
Codex entry: The Fade

both are far better explanation then just wanting to be in the mortal world. And you can indeed ask why? an immortal being has no use for a mortal one unless the mortal being has something the immortal being needs

[quote]
Demons are not "basically gods" in the Fade. The Fade itself follows an entirely different set of rules compared to Thedas. ANY being who walks the Fade can will anything into existence. However, the only beings from the physical realm to do so consciously are the Mages, which no doubt is also one of the reason the demons holds such interest in mages.[/quote]

If you will things into being (all the structures and landscapes are a manifestation of the will of a demon or spirit) then they are pretty godlike in the fade. And i ask you once again why do demons hold any interrest to mages. they can influence the fade. So what? what makes makes the mage such an attraction to the mage?

[quote]
Mages are the ONLY beings the demon will actively seek to possess. Otherwise the demon will have somehow already had to crossed the veil. And more than like if you gave the demon a choice, it would always choose to possess the mage.[/quote]

Mages have a direct link to the fade so they come in contact with demons far more often. but during the shale quest the desire demon was perfectly happy to possess a young girl or an adult man who are not mages even if yourself wynne or morrigan where present. You are indeed correct that a mage is more preferrable to a demon.

[quote]
And a demon possess a corpse, tree or rock because they fail to realize the difference between an inamitae object and a living thing. Not because they are "easy prey".
[/quote]

For weaker demons corpses make tempting targets, as the demon cannot
sense any resistance. When a sloth demon takes possession of a dead body
a shambling corpse is the result. Devouring corpses are held by hunger demons and feed upon the living.


from the codex. So what the **** are you talking about not in lore?

Modifié par DKJaigen, 23 décembre 2013 - 09:22 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

Once again you gave no motive why the demons wants to experience the mortal world. According to justice many spirits see the mortal world as something that is rather disgusting. so you come tho this

Codex entry: The Maker
Codex entry: The Fade

both are far better explanation then just wanting to be in the mortal world. And you can indeed ask why? an immortal being has no use for a mortal one unless the mortal being has something the immortal being needs 

Forgive me if I am not about to use religious creation mythos as any kind of evidence towards the motivations of demons. Spirits and Demons are not deathless, since Justice very clearly says that Spirits and Demons ceases to exist just like mortals. They may not age as mortals, but they do die.
And we don't know exactly what motivates the Demons to possess mages and others in the physical realm. But specifying this motivation is not a requirement to figure out that mages are their prefered target. Which was the only point I was making.
That mundanes holds just as much interest and is just as lucrative a target as mages, which you claim, is completely unsupported by the lore so far.

DKJaigen wrote...

Demons are not "basically gods" in the Fade. The Fade itself follows an entirely different set of rules compared to Thedas. ANY being who walks the Fade can will anything into existence. However, the only beings from the physical realm to do so consciously are the Mages, which no doubt is also one of the reason the demons holds such interest in mages.

If you will things into being (all the structures and landscapes are a manifestation of the will of a demon or spirit) then they are pretty godlike in the fade. And i ask you once again why do demons hold any interrest to mages. they can influence the fade. So what? what makes makes the mage such an attraction to the mage? 

ANYONE can will things into existence in the Fade. So by your definition EVERYONE in the Fade is godlike. But by that very definition of everyone being godlike, means that NONE are godlike in the Fade.
And how would I know the motivations of Demons? But, as you pointed out yourself, the mages are UNIQUE in their conenction to the Fade, and undoubtedly THAT is what makes them such attractive targets to the Demons.

DKJaigen wrote...

Mages are the ONLY beings the demon will actively seek to possess. Otherwise the demon will have somehow already had to crossed the veil. And more than like if you gave the demon a choice, it would always choose to possess the mage.

Mages have a direct link to the fade so they come in contact with demons far more often. but during the shale quest the desire demon was perfectly happy to possess a young girl or an adult man who are not mages even if yourself wynne or morrigan where present. You are indeed correct that a mage is more preferrable to a demon. 

EVERYONE have a direct link to the Fade, be they mage, Dwarf or mundane. Mages are unique in their connection hwoever in that they can bring the Fade into the real world in the form of magic.
And we don't know wether or not Matthias and Amalia were mages. But even so it doesn't really matter, since the reason for it wanting to possess Amalia was because it was its only way to escape. And it probably didn't want to risk possessing one of three trained mages. Demons are not above self-preservation, especially not the more intellegent ones.

DKJaigen wrote...

And a demon possess a corpse, tree or rock because they fail to realize the difference between an inamitae object and a living thing. Not because they are "easy prey".

For weaker demons corpses make tempting targets, as the demon cannot
sense any resistance. When a sloth demon takes possession of a dead body
a shambling corpse is the result. Devouring corpses are held by hunger demons and feed upon the living. 

Uhm.. So you just described the differnet types of minor undead, and somehow that explains WHY a Demon possesses a corpse? Yeah... We are gonna chalk that up as "Nope" and move on...

DKJaigen wrote...
from the codex. So what the **** are you talking about not in lore?

Uhm yeah... NOTHING of what you said in this post supports your claim, that a mundane is just as attractive a target for a demon as a mage. So, yeah..... You STILL have no support from the lore to your claims..

[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...
Your mage and my mage, man, they'd get it done right. 

Depends on your definition of "right" and what you understand needs to get done, I suppose. They'd certainly do it in a much subtler and smarter way than Fiona, that's for sure. She's all anger and self-rigtheousness.

Evil Puppet Master. Warm and muppety puppeteer.:innocent:

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 23 décembre 2013 - 10:52 .

[Master Warder Z_]

TK514 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Namely because the entirity of those leading the present rebellion would either be dead or tranqui.

Nah, the way she's written, Magical Super Awesome Fiona would just cure herself of Tranquility.

No, she has had her brushes with mortality and furthermore it would be almost criminal inquistion if she wasn't killable.

Besides i have a feeling if you follow the templar storyline she does end up a corpse somewhere near the end of it.

Grand Enchanter and all.

That said for the sake of my little plan, i would have to disagree considering that there is only one known process to permenantly cure yourself of tranqulity and honestly? the side effects of the cure make me wonder if remaining tranquil isn't just the best option.

Considering you choose from only being able to engage in emotional extremes or be with out emotion entirely, also that makes the agrument of these men being mages again something i personally wouldn't support come into play.

How could a person who could't even control their emotions, control mana to the extent not to kill themselves using it? Or be able to resist possession.

[TheKomandorShepard]

DKJaigen wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

@Komandor Im starting to think you want
to kill everyone then rule the world from their ashes, thats why you
want to get rid of mages less competition. 

No i want kill things that are big danger for me and well world destruction is bad for business so i will use everything to be in charge and to stay things that way...

So to stop the possibility of destruction by mages, you'll cause destruction on mages? This sounds awfully familiar. Oh yeah, Mass Effect's Reapers had the same idea.

No to stop peoples who will cause destruction of world what is rather very damn bad for my goals and business i will kill peoples who can cause it rather logical don't you think?

But what if you cause the destruction of the world would you kill yourself

As far i remember inquisitor isn't doomsday and can't destroy everything unlike mages who proved more than few times that their action can be destructive for environmental even if mage isn't abomnation.

DKJaigen wrote...

It
will change nothing.. demonic invasions , dragon flights and blights
will happen regardless if you kill all mages. You are cutting your own
hand because you fear papercuts. its not a wise course.

No demonic invasions won't happen as veil need be open and are 3 ways to demon could get to thedas
easy-possess mages
very easy-summon them and than only mage can do
extremely difficult-cross veil that can be weakened in 2 ways
very easy-by mages
very hard-by wars

Dragons as far i remember most was choped by non-mages and few survived mostly doing nothing...

Blight yes but thanks to mages and well lets say that use nuke to night with monsters that were created by nuclear explosion isn't very smart idea

So no mages are no hand starting from their pathetic combat skills ending on that they are nukes that will hurt only me so nope
advantage<<<<<<<disadvantage even tranquil at ostagar said that. 

So your plans are worthless.

Why my plans are worthless as i said mage is easy portal for demons when other ways and other way without mages are only wars (and well even all wars so far didn't menage open veil so well my plan isn't worthless.