4643 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

almostinsane99 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

They sound like a step in the right direction, Xil. It depends if the Mages would submit to a non-Mage police force using Templar abilities, though, instead of policing themselves, and come quietly when accused of a crime while the said police force is kept from being corrupted.

Well, it's generally a poor idea to count on criminals just submitting in any case. Of course, it's wholly illegal for any national guards to interfere with them unless they do harm to other citizens.

The police do have cause, however, should they possess a dangerous weapon that is outlawed or perform experiments that are outlawed as well.

Such "experiments" would have to involve harming nonmage citizens, otherwise they're under the Circle's jurisdiction, as purely magical affairs.

[LobselVith8]

almostinsane99 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I continue to wonder about responses to my idea about reforms.

I'm a little surprised that no one is discussing the speculation about the promo picture of the apparent Inquisitor wearing a ring with the templar symbol - which sparked discussion about the protagonist being able to have a background (and likely a current occupation) as a templar.

That would be interesting in one of my playthroughs. I'll probably play as a Circle Mage first, though. Or maybe one of the backgrounds I missed from Origins like a noble or one that has never appeared before. 

I'll probably try out a Circle mage as well, although I might try out Tevinter (which seems to be one of the theories behind the 'five rings' speculation) since I've already played as a Circle mage in Origins, and I'm curious to see what it might be like in the Imperium. Perhaps meeting Tevinter templars as well.

Speculation also has Seeker as a background as well, based on the promo with the five rings. I wonder what side the Seeker and templar background would place the player with - whether it's with Lambert's main faction or the Divine's own sect.

[Ravensword]

I just want to follow the Qun. Undoubtedly, I'll encounter Tallis and her ungodly cacophony in my travels.

[The Elder King]

It seems to me that the Seeker that went with Lamber are going to be called templars. In term of background, the templar one would probably be based on Lambert's side, and the Seeker on the Divine's side.

[Lynata]

 Hmmh. To me, those Seekers and Templars who sided with lambert are rogue zealots who got blinded by their paranoia. The true Templars, the loyalists, remain with the Chantry and trust in the wisdom of the Divine. Indeed, it could be argued that the Order will be better off without the fanatics who went to wage their little war, for this way the Order will be rejuvenated more than reformed, and can return to its original purposes as guardians rather than oppressors. In essence, the current conflict might work just like a reset button, turning back time a few centuries to the point where the Templar Order and the Circle of Magi were still in harmony, before the escalations of the previous decades that ultimately culminated in the insurrection.

"It is no simple matter, safeguarding ordinary men from mages, and mages from themselves. Each Circle tower must have some measure of self-government, for it is ever the Maker’s will that men be given the power to take responsibility for our own actions: To sin and fail, as well as to achieve the highest grace and glory on our own strength."
- letter from Knight-Commander Serain, DA:O CE

Not much would need to change, although the Divine would be well advised to issue a few additional decrees to ensure that the excesses of the past do not repeat themselves.

The problem is, of course, the ongoing war between the two rogue factions, which needs to be ended first. And given how both sides operate, I sense that great bloodshed will be involved. The tear in the Veil that we were shown in the DA3 trailer, for example, may well stem from some of the mages invoking powerful (blood?) magic to fight off their attackers, unwittingly releasing and bringing down a new horror upon Thedas.

I am curious what this DA3 "Inquisition", in which the player apparently plays a role in, will actually be. Surely it cannot be Lambert's rogue Seekers and Templars, given that this would pretty much make the mage-class impossible? If it is a neutral Inquisition, perhaps an attempt by the Divine to reorganize what is left of the Templars and Seekers (and perhaps even some mages), it may be interesting in that we will basically get to play Chantry peacekeepers sent out into the world of Thedas to try and re-unite the two warring rogue factions - to fight this new big threat that has been released?
Ahh, speculations ...

For the moment, I'll just continue to play my P&P templar and wait for further news. 

hhh89 wrote...
It seems to me that the Seeker that went with Lamber are going to be called templars. In term of background, the templar one would probably be based on Lambert's side, and the Seeker on the Divine's side.

Yet Lambert was head of the Seeker Order, not of the Templars. Technically, the moment he declared his secession, his authority over the Templar Order would be rendered null and void.
(presumably also over the Seekers, but he would surely have more pull with his own guys and gals)

I'm expecting Cassandra and Leliana to stick to the Divine, though.

Modifié par Lynata, 15 juin 2013 - 02:05 .

[Senya]

@Lobsel Seeker sounds cool, though they seem like rogues to me and I usually play mage or warrior.

Xilizhra wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

They sound like a step in the right direction, Xil. It depends if the Mages would submit to a non-Mage police force using Templar abilities, though, instead of policing themselves, and come quietly when accused of a crime while the said police force is kept from being corrupted.

Well, it's generally a poor idea to count on criminals just submitting in any case. Of course, it's wholly illegal for any national guards to interfere with them unless they do harm to other citizens.

The police do have cause, however, should they possess a dangerous weapon that is outlawed or perform experiments that are outlawed as well.

Such "experiments" would have to involve harming nonmage citizens, otherwise they're under the Circle's jurisdiction, as purely magical affairs.

Only as far as those experiments do not affect ordinary people. Unfortunately, if a tear in the Veil results in an entire Circle being possessed, those abominations will go after ordinary people.

[TK514]

BlueMagitek wrote...

That has since been retconed.

Hawke, however, gets his lyrium fix from underground sources.

Which part has been retconned, Blue?


Lynata, nice background and well done character art.

Xil:  I would love to see the Templars return to what I hope was their original mandate, protection of as well as protection from Mages.  I think, in the intervening centuries, the 'of' part receded in importance in favor of the 'from', which is unfortunate.  If that means the Order needs to be secularised, so be it.

I don't think a reformed Order should be controlled or managed by the Mages.  The risk of a conflict of interest is too great.  I do believe however, that the governing Mage body should be responsible for or have veto power on hiring Templar recruits, and be responsible for Appointing the Knight-Commander, in a fashion similar to the appointment of, say, a Supreme Court Justice.

[Lynata]

almostinsane99 wrote...
Only as far as those experiments do not affect ordinary people. Unfortunately, if a tear in the Veil results in an entire Circle being possessed, those abominations will go after ordinary people.

 ... which was why the Right of Annulment was established in the first place, after those several dozen villagers that fell victim to the killing spree of some Abomination that escaped the Tower.

TK514 wrote...
Lynata, nice background and well done character art.

Thanks! 
I cannot claim credit for the art myself, though - that was a commissioned piece.

TK514 wrote...
If that means the Order needs to be secularised, so be it.

Well, there's no real need for that. It worked nicely for hundreds of years. Besides, secular Templars would be just as susceptible to paranoia and abuse of power. See today's police and military.

TK514 wrote...
I don't think a reformed Order should be controlled or managed by the Mages.  The risk of a conflict of interest is too great.

Indeed. See how well that works in Tevinter.

The veto thing is an interesting idea, though I feel it would need to be leashed somewhat so as to not give them the ability of only letting people suitable to their needs into the Order, basically grooming their own guards like some politicians do with their allies. A hard hand is necessary sometimes, the tricky thing lies in deciding when to get pushy.
But I think they should have the ability to file complaints with the local Grand Cleric and request an impartial investigation, if that was not already the case.

Modifié par Lynata, 15 juin 2013 - 02:38 .

[Peer of the Empire]

Hail Templars

[Hazegurl]

Mage Inquisitor and Templar Inquisitor would be my first playthroughs if I can. I just know my Mage Inquisitor will be the most interesting as I would gladly stomp any mage who looked at me like he wants to do something.

As for reforming the Templars. After this I doubt Mages would go back into the Circles so they should be used to uplift nonmages. Mages should just be kicked out and given their own country or Island away from everyone else. I like that idea provided that whatever they do does not affect non mages. Let them tear open their own veils and deal with those Hellraiser demons on their own. The Templars job should be to hunt down blood mages and cart away all the other mages. templars have to fight demons and deal with mages constantly plotting against them. They shouldn't be soft like losers such as Thrask and Evangeline. It's not their job to hold mages hands and helps them undermine authority, but to fight and kill them when needed. The only reform the Templar Order needs is rooting out rapists and abusers more effectively.

[Xilizhra]

As for reforming the Templars. After this I doubt Mages would go back into the Circles so they should be used to uplift nonmages. Mages should just be kicked out and given their own country or Island away from everyone else. I like that idea provided that whatever they do does not affect non mages. Let them tear open their own veils and deal with those Hellraiser demons on their own. The Templars job should be to hunt down blood mages and cart away all the other mages. templars have to fight demons and deal with mages constantly plotting against them. They shouldn't be soft like losers such as Thrask and Evangeline. It's not their job to hold mages hands and helps them undermine authority, but to fight and kill them when needed. The only reform the Templar Order needs is rooting out rapists and abusers more effectively.

I see that and raise you complete annihilation of the Order and rebuilding it from the ground up, which is necessary to clear out all the fanatical deadwood and start bringing in productive people who can work with the mages.

[Lynata]

Hmm, the isolation/segregation is an interesting idea, but I feel this would become difficult once the mages have children - who turn out to be non-mages. Would you keep ripping their families apart? Would the mages allow this? Granted, life in a Tower is a form of segregation as well, but they can be let out for visits (or at least this was done when the Circles were still under Templar protection), and some isolated island is a lot harder to get to...
Not to mention that all the travel would cost an incredible amount of money?

Also, the vote to leave the Circles was pretty narrow - in fact it almost failed. There may still be a lot of Chantry loyalists amongst the mages.

Xilizhra wrote...
I see that and raise you complete annihilation of the Order and rebuilding it from the ground up, which is necessary to clear out all the fanatical deadwood and start bringing in productive people who can work with the mages.

Wasn't this already done? The fanatics followed Lambert's call to wage war. What remains are the moderates.

Sorta. There will be some on both sides that followed for other reasons, but I'd expect "mage opinion" to be amongst the chief factors to determine who left and who stayed with Justinia's Chantry.

Modifié par Lynata, 15 juin 2013 - 02:48 .

[Hazegurl]

Xilizhra wrote...

I see that and raise you complete annihilation of the Order and rebuilding it from the ground up, which is necessary to clear out all the fanatical deadwood and start bringing in productive people who can work with the mages.

If you can do that oh well. I don't care about ways to make mages lives easier. That's for the mage support thread...which seems to have sunk into nonexistence. I support the Templar order and what is best for them.  At this stage, they can't afford to be soft nor dismantle their entire order and rebuild for the sake of a bunch of mages.

[Hazegurl]

Lynata wrote...

Hmm, the isolation/segregation is an interesting idea, but I feel this would become difficult once the mages have children - who turn out to be non-mages. Would you keep ripping their families apart? Would the mages allow this? Granted, life in a Tower is a form of segregation as well, but they can be let out for visits (or at least this was done when the Circles were still under Templar protection), and some isolated island is a lot harder to get to...
Not to mention that all the travel would cost an incredible amount of money?

Also, the vote to leave the Circles was pretty narrow - in fact it almost failed. There may still be a lot of Chantry loyalists amongst the mages.

If they have non mage children, it doesn't matter, they can keep them. I see no reason in constantly tearing children from their parents if the mages have their own place to be. That would be like the Circle.  If their children grow up decide to move away ( for work, love etc) then that should be cool. Also, the Chantry nor the Templars should support the mages on their island/land, freedom from the Chantry should also mean that they recieve no more food, money, or provisions from them. That money and resources should be spent on schools and education for their own citizens.

[Lynata]

Hazegurl wrote...
If they have non mage children, it doesn't matter, they can keep them.

Then it's just a matter of one or two centuries until you're going to have Tevinter 2.0 on that island. You're literally raising generations of slaves - "mundanes" who live at the mercy of their mage masters.

[Xilizhra]

Wasn't this already done? The fanatics followed Lambert's call to wage war. What remains are the moderates.

Sorta. There will be some on both sides that followed for other reasons, but I'd expect "mage opinion" to be amongst the chief factors to determine who left and who stayed with Justinia's Chantry.

I don't know if they're trustworthy; I'd have to assess that faction upon seeing it.

If you can do that oh well. I don't care about ways to make mages lives easier. That's for the mage support thread...which seems to have sunk into nonexistence. I support the Templar order and what is best for them. At this stage, they can't afford to be soft nor dismantle their entire order and rebuild for the sake of a bunch of mages.

If you want ways to make the templars better, that's the way. As of now, all you're trying to do is make them worse.

[TCBC_Freak]

You ever watch the show Heroes? I think a, "one of us, one of them," system wouldn't be a bad idea. It fosters cooperation and can build trust. But I don't think the order needs to be secular, after all, demons and gods are very real, calling on the power of the Maker can and does effect things, as does calling on the power of say Duhmat (sp?) as we've seen. Even though he was an Old God/Arch-demon and was beaten by the Grey Wardens we are able to interact with his shrine and "do magic." So there isn't a reason to arbitrarily cut all ties to the Chantry when it does give the Templar part of their power.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

You ever watch the show Heroes? I think a, "one of us, one of them," system wouldn't be a bad idea. It fosters cooperation and can build trust. But I don't think the order needs to be secular, after all, demons and gods are very real, calling on the power of the Maker can and does effect things, as does calling on the power of say Duhmat (sp?) as we've seen. Even though he was an Old God/Arch-demon and was beaten by the Grey Wardens we are able to interact with his shrine and "do magic." So there isn't a reason to arbitrarily cut all ties to the Chantry when it does give the Templar part of their power.

Where do you get the impression calling on the Maker effects things? I got the impression that even the Chantry admits it doesn't, and that there's nothing the Templars can do that isn't strictly arcane, rather than divine.

[Hazegurl]

Lynata wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...
If they have non mage children, it doesn't matter, they can keep them.

Then it's just a matter of one or two centuries until you're going to have Tevinter 2.0 on that island. You're literally raising generations of slaves - "mundanes" who live at the mercy of their mage masters.

If they enslave their own children it's not the Templar's problem.  The Chantry should focus on giving nonmages within their own borders all that food, education and warm beds they were giving to the mages who decided to spit it in their faces.  The Chantry and Templars can't police everyone and they can't keep traveling to a mage ruled land to set them straight, rescue their children etc. The mages would then claim that the Chantry and Templars are interferring in their lives etc. It would be their cause to incite yet another war. It may be harsh but for the sake of peace with the mages they can have their future Tevinter 2.

[Hazegurl]

Xilizhra wrote...

If you want ways to make the templars better, that's the way. As of now, all you're trying to do is make them worse.

That's your opinion. I disagree.

[Lynata]

Hazegurl wrote...
If they enslave their own children it's not the Templar's problem.  The Chantry should focus on giving nonmages within their own borders all that food, education and warm beds they were giving to the mages who decided to spit it in their faces. The Chantry and Templars can't police everyone and they can't keep traveling to a mage ruled land to set them straight, rescue their children etc. 

One of the major goals of the Chantry, and thus the Templars, is to spread the Chant of Light to all corners of the world, as they believe it necessary for the return of the Maker. This includes spreading Chantry virtues, which include the tenet that magic "exists to serve man, not rule over him".

It certainly is an Imperialist philosophy. Of course one could argue that the conquest of "that mage island" could be postponed until they've dealt with all the other cultures, but I really don't think the Chantry and the remaining Templars would feel comfortable setting up a magocracy with an underclass they cannot protect.

The suggestion to secularize the Order and thus split it off from the Chantry has been mentioned, perhaps with the intention to create something similar to the Grey Wardens, just focused on mages ... yet still at least some of its members might, out of sheer duty towards the common people, be bothered by the idea of basically "leaving someone behind". Then again, I'm biased in that I don't actually want to see the Templars split from the Chantry. Having the Order as a religious organization, with faith playing a large part in their motivation and dedication to duty, seems like too good a thematic aspect to pass up on. I always thought the Grey Wardens a bit too "mercenary" for my taste. 

[saMoorai]

I'm going to like this thread.

Has anyone played a Templar supporting mage in DA2? and if so, was it any good?

I think I might go that route in DA:I to see how its handled.

[Dave of Canada]

saMOOrai182 wrote...

Has anyone played a Templar supporting mage in DA2? and if so, was it any good?

Game makes more sense if you're a pro-templar mage.

Everyone uses you as an example of why you shouldn't oppress mages, Carver becomes defensive/supportive of you and doesn't hate you (as much), Hawke is more competent (he can break blood magic on his own, etc) and Meredith's reason for wanting to arrest you at the end actually makes sense.

The picture of Hawke sitting on Kirkwall's throne in his champion armor with Templar standing by his side is one of my favorite mental images.

[saMoorai]

Huh. That sounds really promising.

Sounds like i'm going to go with that when I replay DA2 for Inquisition.