4643 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Raijin]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No you don't. Your accusatory tone imples Chantry addicts templars just to control themas some kind of sinister act.
And yet it is templars that willingly take lyrium - just like Grey Warden willingly (more or less) drink darkspawn blood. Actually, by that logic what the GW do is much, much worse.

Go get your Asunder book by flipping to Chapter 14 and start your reading. The Chantry isn't all that great. The lyrium is a control mechanism by the Chantry. That is that.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Lyrium is a NECESSITY.
Lyrium cannot be made non-adictive. That is that.

[dragonflight288]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No you don't. Your accusatory tone imples Chantry addicts templars just to control themas some kind of sinister act.
And yet it is templars that willingly take lyrium - just like Grey Warden willingly (more or less) drink darkspawn blood. Actually, by that logic what the GW do is much, much worse.

His allegations was that SOME in the Chantry would use the templars lyrium addiction for sinister acts, not the Chantry as a whole.

And the Grey Wardens have never once claimed to have moral superiority. There MO is quite simply "Whatever it takes to defeat the Darkspawn."

They've never claimed the moral superiority the Chantry and templars have. Does that make them better? Not really, as Wardens can do some pretty extreme things, but they are completely honest about it, and they are the only ones capable of ending a blight, so you can't just get rid of them either.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I'd like to hear how people would propose templars have their magic-nullifying powers without lyrium.

[addiction21]

dragonflight288 wrote...


His allegations was that SOME in the Chantry would use the templars lyrium addiction for sinister acts, not the Chantry as a whole.

Lord Raijin wrote...


Why not? The Chantry screwed the Templars just as much as they try to control the mages. They intentionally get their Templars addicted on lyrium, and then starts to control them with it. You do what the Chantry says and you get your fix... if you don't you get kicked out and are forced to go through withdrawl alone. Either way the Chantry is the enemy whereas the Templars are just the Chantries pawns.

Where is this SOME in the Chantry? Mind pointing it out since I cant seem to find it.

[addiction21]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I'd like to hear how people would propose templars have their magic-nullifying powers without lyrium.

A healthy breakfast including eggs, bacon, fruit, and waffles?

[Medhia Nox]

@addiction21: *tries his Templar powers*

It worked! I can confirm there is NO magic around me!

[dragonflight288]

addiction21 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...


His allegations was that SOME in the Chantry would use the templars lyrium addiction for sinister acts, not the Chantry as a whole.

Lord Raijin wrote...


Why not? The Chantry screwed the Templars just as much as they try to control the mages. They intentionally get their Templars addicted on lyrium, and then starts to control them with it. You do what the Chantry says and you get your fix... if you don't you get kicked out and are forced to go through withdrawl alone. Either way the Chantry is the enemy whereas the Templars are just the Chantries pawns.

Where is this SOME in the Chantry? Mind pointing it out since I cant seem to find it.

Would not Mother Petrice not use templars or seedy underbelly dregs of society to dark and dirty deeds in her personal quest to remove all heresy?

If she lives, she'll admit that she's part of a sect of like-minded cronies in the Chantry, and is taking pro-active action against any who would question the Chantry.

[Medhia Nox]

Well, unless the Red Templars have an alternate lyrium source prior to leaving - their break with the Chantry kinda refutes any claims of addiction control.

Yes, they got one after (presumably red lyrium) - but addicts don't abandon their source of their own free will.

Is there any reason to believe that the Templars had an alternate source of lyrium prior to their break with the Chantry?

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Well, unless the Red Templars have an alternate lyrium source prior to leaving - their break with the Chantry kinda refutes any claims of addiction control.

Yes, they got one after (presumably red lyrium) - but addicts don't abandon their source of their own free will.

Is there any reason to believe that the Templars had an alternate source of lyrium prior to their break with the Chantry?

Probably not.

[Reaverwind]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Well, unless the Red Templars have an alternate lyrium source prior to leaving - their break with the Chantry kinda refutes any claims of addiction control.

Yes, they got one after (presumably red lyrium) - but addicts don't abandon their source of their own free will.

Is there any reason to believe that the Templars had an alternate source of lyrium prior to their break with the Chantry?

Are you kidding? There are several quests involving or at least related to lyrium smuggling in both DA:O and DA2 which suggest that templars do have access to alternate suppliers.

[Lord Raijin]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Lyrium is a NECESSITY.
Lyrium cannot be made non-adictive. That is that.

Templars don't need to have Lyrium to drain the mana from a mage. Theirs specialized poisons dealing with mages like Magebane that can do the job just well, and the templars don't need to become junkies.

The tranquil could very much create a rune or a crystal like object that can drain mana from a nearby mage. Have you read the comicbook yet? They call it dampener.

If the tranquil could use their special talent to create a Tranquility Amulet that calms the mind of it's wearer then they could create a rune/amulet/ring/etc to help the templars to fight off against apostates by draining their mana.

The Chantry doesn't want this kind of technology to exist because they cannot control their templars without Lyrium.

[Medhia Nox]

@Reaverwind: Umm... sorry, I'm not a smuggler?

So, it was enough to support an entire army?

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry doesn't give the Lyrium to Templars to control them, the Tempalrs need the Lyrium to develop and maintain their skills.

naivity doesnt suit you. its part control and part that the templars need it. The fact is the chantry doesnt seem to botherd to find a way to replace the current templar doctrine with a new one thats without the addiction and mind weakening effects

[Reaverwind]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Reaverwind: Umm... sorry, I'm not a smuggler?

So, it was enough to support an entire army?

I've no idea how large-scale the lyrium-operations were. I don't believe that acquiring lyrium is going to be that problematic. The dwarves make their profits off it - they're going to follow the demand.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 25 octobre 2013 - 08:00 .

[Br3admax]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Lyrium is a NECESSITY.
Lyrium cannot be made non-adictive. That is that.

Templars don't need to have Lyrium to drain the mana from a mage. Theirs specialized poisons dealing with mages like Magebane that can do the job just well, and the templars don't need to become junkies.

The tranquil could very much create a rune or a crystal like object that can drain mana from a nearby mage. Have you read the comicbook yet? They call it dampener.

If the tranquil could use their special talent to create a Tranquility Amulet that calms the mind of it's wearer then they could create a rune/amulet/ring/etc to help the templars to fight off against apostates by draining their mana.

The Chantry doesn't want this kind of technology to exist because they cannot control their templars without Lyrium.

Attacking at range and moving in is much smarter than the off chance of somehow poisoning them. As for the dampener, it again makes the Templars have to move in close. Seriously, you're just using fallacies to support your opinion. 

[dragonflight288]

Reaverwind wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Reaverwind: Umm... sorry, I'm not a smuggler?

So, it was enough to support an entire army?

I've no idea how large-scale the lyrium-operations were. I don't believe that acquiring lyrium is going to be that problematic. The dwarves make their profits off it - they're going to follow the demand.

The dwarves use most of the lyrium mined for themselves. Only a small portion reaches the surface, and even smaller portion is smuggled out.

They'll likely follow the demand, but would the templars who left the Chantry have the means to pay for the supply? They would need a source of income, and large-scale armies aren't exactly traders and crafters, capable of making the profit needed. Nor do they receive the tithes from the faithful that the Chantry receives. And with the Circle's leaving the Chantry, they have also lost access to the profit of enchanting services.

No, the templars only real source of income to purchase lyrium, is something every large-scale army in history has done to secure supplies.

The templars who have left the Chantry (Red Templars) are going to be raiders and bandits. They will pillage and plunder across the land just so they can get the resources to get their fix.

EDIT: Every large scale army in history that has gone rogue.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 25 octobre 2013 - 08:33 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry doesn't give the Lyrium to Templars to control them, the Tempalrs need the Lyrium to develop and maintain their skills.

naivity doesnt suit you. its part control and part that the templars need it. The fact is the chantry doesnt seem to botherd to find a way to replace the current templar doctrine with a new one thats without the addiction and mind weakening effects

And you display naivite in thinkig there is a simple or an effective way, or that is even exists.

You cannot be a templar wihout lyrium. You cannot have templar powers without lyrium.


Basicly those accusations are like claiming the Grey Wardens only do the Joining so they can poison poeple. Because that is their ultimate goal.

[AlexanderCousland]

Lord Seeker Lambert or Whomever it may concern,

My chancellor has briefed me on the events surrounding Templar's most unfortunate separation from Chantry leadership. Divine Justina' s supposed involvement in the support of rebel Mage's is a terrible accusation and something I will need to ponder. However, my most trusted advisors have declared that the new faction' s of Templar leadership have turned to the procurement of Red Lyrium. Is that not the substance that drove the Knight-Commander of Kirkwall Mad? I have been among the Maker's most faithful and my Faith has told me the slaughter of Innocents and smuggling of corrupt substances is wrong. I cannot lend support to your orginization. (Plus the ball and chain doesn't think it's a good idea)

Alexander Cousland
King /Warden Commander of Ferelden

Lmfao

Modifié par FreshIstay, 25 octobre 2013 - 09:10 .

[Medhia Nox]

@dragonflight288: The pillaging and plundering is also a great way to get non-mages to hate them. Despite the assertions of a few people on the grounds of morality - I still think that there's next to zero reason for the mundanes to support the mages.

But, if the Templars show their colors - then the mundanes won't readily support anyone.

And that's a good thing .

[Lord Raijin]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry doesn't give the Lyrium to Templars to control them, the Tempalrs need the Lyrium to develop and maintain their skills.

naivity doesnt suit you. its part control and part that the templars need it. The fact is the chantry doesnt seem to botherd to find a way to replace the current templar doctrine with a new one thats without the addiction and mind weakening effects

And you display naivite in thinkig there is a simple or an effective way, or that is even exists.

You cannot be a templar wihout lyrium. You cannot have templar powers without lyrium.


Basicly those accusations are like claiming the Grey Wardens only do the Joining so they can poison poeple. Because that is their ultimate goal.

Why are the Grey wardens getting involved with this debate? The Joining protects the Grey warden from the taint poison that the Darkspawn carries because they became immune to the taint. Ser Wesley Vallen , a templar, was cut on the arm and was almost killed by a Hurlock until his wife, Aveline, tackled the darkspawn down and decapitated it with her sword. The posion spreaded through his veins which was slowly killing him.

You do not need Lyrium to become a templar. If the Chantry actually fallows what they preach they could use mages from the Circle to dispell the mana from the target apostate using spirit magic. Templars are suppose to be warriors, not artificial mages like they are. This is one of the many things that pisses me off about DA.

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.

[Lord Raijin]

Morocco Mole wrote...

According to a retcon you do indeed need lyrium to use templar skills

To become a mock mage, yeah! Why not? Templars and Fenris have something in common. Lyrium grants them mage like powers.

The red lyrium idol granted Meredith powers of a mage, and thus she became one in ACT 3.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

According to a retcon you do indeed need lyrium to use templar skills

To become a mock mage, yeah! Why not? Templars and Fenris have something in common. Lyrium grants them mage like powers.

The red lyrium idol granted Meredith powers of a mage, and thus she became one in ACT 3.

normal lyrium nope red yes but i doubt that turning into sith lord was what rly happened in meredith case.We can argue whether normal lyrium gives mage like power nope but it gives some kind of power which is unnatural so it is some kind of magic. 

[LOLandStuff]

@Lord Raijin
It's funny how you use cut content to back up silly claims yet completely ignore lore or retcons because it doesn't suit you.