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[Reaverwind]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

According to a retcon you do indeed need lyrium to use templar skills

To become a mock mage, yeah! Why not? Templars and Fenris have something in common. Lyrium grants them mage like powers.

The red lyrium idol granted Meredith powers of a mage, and thus she became one in ACT 3.

normal lyrium nope red yes but i doubt that turning into sith lord was what rly happened in meredith case.We can argue whether normal lyrium gives mage like power nope but it gives some kind of power which is unnatural so it is some kind of magic. 

Gameplay in DA2 was way over the top, period. We had mooks parachuting out of ceilings, no less.

[BackdoorPaco]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry doesn't give the Lyrium to Templars to control them, the Tempalrs need the Lyrium to develop and maintain their skills.

naivity doesnt suit you. its part control and part that the templars need it. The fact is the chantry doesnt seem to botherd to find a way to replace the current templar doctrine with a new one thats without the addiction and mind weakening effects

And you display naivite in thinkig there is a simple or an effective way, or that is even exists.

You cannot be a templar wihout lyrium. You cannot have templar powers without lyrium.


Basicly those accusations are like claiming the Grey Wardens only do the Joining so they can poison poeple. Because that is their ultimate goal.

Why are the Grey wardens getting involved with this debate? The Joining protects the Grey warden from the taint poison that the Darkspawn carries because they became immune to the taint. Ser Wesley Vallen , a templar, was cut on the arm and was almost killed by a Hurlock until his wife, Aveline, tackled the darkspawn down and decapitated it with her sword. The posion spreaded through his veins which was slowly killing him.

You do not need Lyrium to become a templar. If the Chantry actually fallows what they preach they could use mages from the Circle to dispell the mana from the target apostate using spirit magic. Templars are suppose to be warriors, not artificial mages like they are. This is one of the many things that pisses me off about DA.

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.

Comparing the joining to lyrium is relevant. Both offer perks that counter what the user, be it templar or grey warden, is designed to fight. Of course, the Ser Wesley example is a prime example of that. He is a templar, and as such, doesn't have the tools to fight darkspawn. The same goes for a grey warden fighting a mage, though that may be more dependent on said wardens background.

The chantry could use mages to hunt down other mages, but that would be like sending a criminal to capture another criminal. There would be bias that would go against the original intent of capturing the rogue/runaway mage. And that would be bad. 

[errant_knight]

We don't know that templars don't need Lyrium, we only know that Alistair dosen't. Because he doesn't, he sees it as a means of control. He may be right, I always figured he was, but we don't have enough information to say that for sure or that templars don't need Lyrium. Without going into comic book spoilers, we now know something that could explain why that might be the case with Alistair and not for others. Doesn't mean that's a fact either. We don't know more than we know.

[EmperorSahlertz]

In the comics Alistair says he started taking Lyrium "again", so that he could maintain his Templar abilities.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Basicly those accusations are like claiming the Grey Wardens only do the Joining so they can poison poeple. Because that is their ultimate goal.

Why are the Grey wardens getting involved with this debate? The Joining protects the Grey warden from the taint poison that the Darkspawn carries because they became immune to the taint. Ser Wesley Vallen , a templar, was cut on the arm and was almost killed by a Hurlock until his wife, Aveline, tackled the darkspawn down and decapitated it with her sword. The posion spreaded through his veins which was slowly killing him.

GreyWarden propaganda.
I refuse to belive it.
Grey Wardens are evil.
They are poisoning people and dooming them to a slow and horrible death.

You do not need Lyrium to become a templar.

WoG sez you do. Period.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry doesn't give the Lyrium to Templars to control them, the Tempalrs need the Lyrium to develop and maintain their skills.

naivity doesnt suit you. its part control and part that the templars need it. The fact is the chantry doesnt seem to botherd to find a way to replace the current templar doctrine with a new one thats without the addiction and mind weakening effects

And you display naivite in thinkig there is a simple or an effective way, or that is even exists.

You cannot be a templar wihout lyrium. You cannot have templar powers without lyrium.


Basicly those accusations are like claiming the Grey Wardens only do the Joining so they can poison poeple. Because that is their ultimate goal.

Teh grey wardens are quite aware that they are indeed poisoning their recruits and taking steps to refine the joining ritual. you can talk to avernus about it. And yes you canot be templars without lyrium. but it still makes them slaves to whoever holds the lyrium supply . Fenris tatoes would be the basis of a new and improved templar. but its seems to me that your so pro status quo that you cannot even think about improving the templars. Even when the templars are enmass turning into red templars you fail to recognize that the templars need improvements.

[Reznore57]

Fenris tatoos are still on the experimental stage , he's the only one to have been through this .
He could go insane or die in a few years , it could be slowly poisoning him.
We don't know.

What we know is it hurts on a daily basis ,and the ritual for the tatoo was highly traumatic ...
And even if he has some magic resistance , he can't keep mages from using mana .
So he 's not even the best mage hunter ever...

Lyrium tatoo doesn't seem like a good idea for templars.(or for anyone...)
Not that drinking lyrium is great for health anyway...

[Reaverwind]

Reznore57 wrote...

Fenris tatoos are still on the experimental stage , he's the only one to have been through this .
He could go insane or die in a few years , it could be slowly poisoning him.
We don't know.

What we know is it hurts on a daily basis ,and the ritual for the tatoo was highly traumatic ...
And even if he has some magic resistance , he can't keep mages from using mana .
So he 's not even the best mage hunter ever...

Lyrium tatoo doesn't seem like a good idea for templars.(or for anyone...)
Not that drinking lyrium is great for health anyway...

True, he's definitely not the best mage hunter, but you gotta admit, there's no danger of someone who's undergone the procedure of ever developing sympathy for the mages.

[Xilizhra]

Reaverwind wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

Fenris tatoos are still on the experimental stage , he's the only one to have been through this .
He could go insane or die in a few years , it could be slowly poisoning him.
We don't know.

What we know is it hurts on a daily basis ,and the ritual for the tatoo was highly traumatic ...
And even if he has some magic resistance , he can't keep mages from using mana .
So he 's not even the best mage hunter ever...

Lyrium tatoo doesn't seem like a good idea for templars.(or for anyone...)
Not that drinking lyrium is great for health anyway...

True, he's definitely not the best mage hunter, but you gotta admit, there's no danger of someone who's undergone the procedure of ever developing sympathy for the mages.

Except when Fenris helps me save the mages, of course.

[dragonflight288]

Reznore57 wrote...

Fenris tatoos are still on the experimental stage , he's the only one to have been through this .
He could go insane or die in a few years , it could be slowly poisoning him.
We don't know.

What we know is it hurts on a daily basis ,and the ritual for the tatoo was highly traumatic ...
And even if he has some magic resistance , he can't keep mages from using mana .
So he 's not even the best mage hunter ever...

Lyrium tatoo doesn't seem like a good idea for templars.(or for anyone...)
Not that drinking lyrium is great for health anyway...

Fenris: Lyrium Warriors such as myself in Tevinter are rare.

They're rare, not non-existant.

Personally, I think the amount of lyrium needed uses roughly the same amount of lyrium that a templar would have consume their whole life, you just need it all at once compared to the smaller doses the templar drinks.

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

Fenris tatoos are still on the experimental stage , he's the only one to have been through this .
He could go insane or die in a few years , it could be slowly poisoning him.
We don't know.

What we know is it hurts on a daily basis ,and the ritual for the tatoo was highly traumatic ...
And even if he has some magic resistance , he can't keep mages from using mana .
So he 's not even the best mage hunter ever...

Lyrium tatoo doesn't seem like a good idea for templars.(or for anyone...)
Not that drinking lyrium is great for health anyway...

True, he's definitely not the best mage hunter, but you gotta admit, there's no danger of someone who's undergone the procedure of ever developing sympathy for the mages.

Except when Fenris helps me save the mages, of course.

He's not doing that because he has sympathy for mages. He's doing that because of wanting to help you. despite whatever type of character you made. 

[Hazegurl]

Which makes Fenris such an awesome character. He'll help out the mages out of respect for his friend/lover even if he thinks it's a bad idea. Ask Anders to set aside his own grudges to lessen the damage if you side with the Templars and he'll have a b**ch fit before you either murder knife him or let him go.

[Reaverwind]

Hazegurl wrote...

Which makes Fenris such an awesome character. He'll help out the mages out of respect for his friend/lover even if he thinks it's a bad idea. Ask Anders to set aside his own grudges to lessen the damage if you side with the Templars and he'll have a b**ch fit before you either murder knife him or let him go.

The irony is it turns out he isn't wrong about it being a bad idea - when the mages decide to do the templars' work for them. 

[Xilizhra]

Reaverwind wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Which makes Fenris such an awesome character. He'll help out the mages out of respect for his friend/lover even if he thinks it's a bad idea. Ask Anders to set aside his own grudges to lessen the damage if you side with the Templars and he'll have a b**ch fit before you either murder knife him or let him go.

The irony is it turns out he isn't wrong about it being a bad idea - when the mages decide to do the templars' work for them. 

Not in any universe. What game did you play?

Also, siding with templars in no way lessens the damage, so Anders is right to do so.

[Hazegurl]

I'm talking about for the city overall not just mages. He could have at least made the attempt to try and care about other people besides mages.

@Reaverwind, Right. Fenris was totally right about it being a bad idea to help the mages. But he was willing to swallow it and help out for his friend/lover. It just proves even more that Fenris will always have more class than Anders.

[Xilizhra]

I'm talking about for the city overall not just mages. He could have at least made the attempt to try and care about other people besides mages.

That doesn't help in the slightest either, because the templars are completely ignoring the demons. Only the city guard will pitch in to do something useful.

[Hazegurl]

Actually none of them do anything useful due to Gameplay. However, the Templars were in the streets fighting as well. The point is that Anders is even more useless as he refuses to take responsibility for his own actions because he doesn't like the side chosen. He's been nothing but self centered throughout this entire game, even until his very death. Good riddance to the creep.

I find it funny how he tried to talk crap about the possibility of Fenris betraying Hawke while on a fake quest he was lying to Hawke about. What a loser.

[Xilizhra]

However, the Templars were in the streets fighting as well.

Fighting mages, not demons.

The point is that Anders is even more useless as he refuses to take responsibility for his own actions because he doesn't like the side chosen. He's been nothing but self centered throughout this entire game, even until his very death. Good riddance to the creep.

Anders is remarkably selfless. It's something Justice instilled.

I think my favorite thing about
Anders is, despite railing and crying about slavery and the treatment of
the mages, is that he doesn't care in the least if you sell Fenris back
into slavery.

Because they both unapologetically want each other dead.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 26 octobre 2013 - 03:56 .

[Xilizhra]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Because they both unapologetically want each other dead.

And yet when confronted with his hypocrisy Fenris concedes. Anders does not.

Anders is never confronted with hypocrisy; that conversation doesn't include anyone replying to his observation at all.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

However, the Templars were in the streets fighting as well.

Fighting mages, not demons.

The point is that Anders is even more useless as he refuses to take responsibility for his own actions because he doesn't like the side chosen. He's been nothing but self centered throughout this entire game, even until his very death. Good riddance to the creep.

Anders is remarkably selfless. It's something Justice instilled.

I think my favorite thing about
Anders is, despite railing and crying about slavery and the treatment of
the mages, is that he doesn't care in the least if you sell Fenris back
into slavery.

Because they both unapologetically want each other dead.

1.Find 2 differences i will give you 1 day because it may be hard
2.Well true
3.Still he supports idea selling (well leaving)  him into slavery that what he condemns. 

Morocco Mole wrote...

Anders is the opposite of selfless.
All he cares about is his own motives, hence him potentially
manipulating Hawke, throwing the mages to the lions, and generally only
caring about his own issues and no one elses.

I disagree he was helping refugees and didn't want anything for that  as well he was helping mages despite he could simply live like in first game and care only about himself.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 26 octobre 2013 - 04:05 .

[Lord Raijin]

BackdoorPaco wrote...
Comparing the joining to lyrium is relevant. Both offer perks that counter what the user, be it templar or grey warden, is designed to fight. Of course, the Ser Wesley example is a prime example of that. He is a templar, and as such, doesn't have the tools to fight darkspawn. The same goes for a grey warden fighting a mage, though that may be more dependent on said wardens background.

The chantry could use mages to hunt down other mages, but that would be like sending a criminal to capture another criminal. There would be bias that would go against the original intent of capturing the rogue/runaway mage. And that would be bad. 

I don't find the relevance behind it. The Grey Wardens undergo the Joining ritual to become immune to the posion whereas the templars intentinally get addicted to lyrium to develop an artificial power to use for the sole purpose to harass mages who want nothing more than to live their life in peace without the Chantries supervision.

Mages are treated as prisoners because they were born with magic, and thus are forced to take drastic actions to fight for their freedom. The Darkspawn were created by the Broodmothers to cause total destruction against humans/elves and Dwarves.

The Grey wardens have no choice whereas the Templars could choose not to fallow under the Chantries laws and just let the poor mages live their own life without getting heavily involved in it.

How can mages use their own Makers gift to serve men when the Chantry is too afraid to let it happen?

[Xilizhra]

Anders is the opposite of selfless. All he cares about is his own motives, hence him potentially manipulating Hawke, throwing the mages to the lions, and generally only caring about his own issues and no one elses.

His motives for the good of so many others, note.

[Reaverwind]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I think my favorite thing about Anders is, despite railing and crying about slavery and the treatment of the mages, is that he doesn't care in the least if you sell Fenris back into slavery.

What annoys me about Anders is that you can't tell him to take a hike from the start, with a boot to his backside to send him out the door. I would have loved to have left his corpse in a ditch somewhere, but I understand the plot called for him to be a terrorist. Still, there's no reason for the PC to have to tolerate him.