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[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
...you haven't dealt with psychopaths or terrorists, have you? 'Cause what you just listed is a great big fat No True Scotsman Fallacy.

Psychopaths can feel emotions, and terrorists can feel guilt. Remorse isn't a disqualifier for evil or villainy, so if you intend to argue against those labels you're going to need a much better defense.

I haven't personally dealth with psychopaths or terrorists, but I've studied a lot about them, and no they do not show emotions and feel guilty. Being remorseful is not in their vocabulary. Who taught you this fallacy? Do you think John Wayne Gacy felt guilty or remorseful when he murdered a bunch of children right inside of his own home, and used the basement as his own personal cemetery? The irony is that he use to invite people over for parties, and even invited the police over to which one smelt the decomposing bodies. His excuse was that it was urine from his dogs. It was his lack of emotions, lack of feeling guilty is what made him get caught and get convicted of the murders. It was his lack remorseful is what encouraged the jury to agree with the death penelty as a punishment.

In a psychological POV Anders definitely shows signs of mental health disorder, but he is NOT by any standards a psychopath. He blew up the Chantry at night when the Chantry was closed. Nobody but a few templars and the Grand Cleric was inside at the time of the explosion.

At the end of the day, we do not know about who was nearby the Chantry. Remember the falling statues outside of the Chantry, while the blast was occurring? And just because we only saw that there were only templars and Elthina inside, doesn't mean there were not others present. We just don't know.

[Hellion Rex]

Morocco Mole wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

There you go. A pro-mage who think Anders killed some innocent people in the blast. 

Never said there weren't intelligent pro-magers I enjoy debating with.

Apologies.

[Lord Raijin]

Meredith wanted to use the ROA regardless. Elthina rejected it and so did the Divine. Meredith wanted to commit genocide against the Circle. Can you not blame Anders for taking action against the corrupted Knight-Commander.

[Br3admax]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I'd argue Anders is just as guilty of genocide as Meredith. Since he directly provoked her into committing it.

But mage freedom, bro? 

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Meredith wanted to use the ROA regardless. Elthina rejected it and so did the Divine. Meredith wanted to commit genocide against the Circle. Can you not blame Anders for taking action against the corrupted Knight-Commander.

It is a difficult and grey debate, to say the least. I feel that  to outright force this war through such an act of violence, through using magic to instill death, was not necessarily justified. While he may have started an inevitable war, he has made changing things for the future much more difficult. And if nothing else, he has justified and proved a lot of templars fears about magic use. And that might make fixing things that much more difficult down the road for mages.

[Hellion Rex]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I'd argue Anders is just as guilty of genocide as Meredith. Since he directly provoked her into committing it.

This I could arguably agree with. While he may not have personally have done the killing, he forced Meredith's hand, leading us into this mess, which will inevitably lead to more bloodshed and pain for both sides.

Modifié par eluvianix, 26 octobre 2013 - 05:54 .

[Hellion Rex]

Br3ad wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

I'd argue Anders is just as guilty of genocide as Meredith. Since he directly provoked her into committing it.

But mage freedom, bro? 

I think more mage empathy, not necessarily freedom.

[Lord Raijin]

eluvianix wrote...

At the end of the day, we do not know about who was nearby the Chantry. Remember the falling statues outside of the Chantry, while the blast was occurring? And just because we only saw that there were only templars and Elthina inside, doesn't mean there were not others present. We just don't know.

The Chantry created Anders and now they must suffer the consquences. The years of systematic abuse by the Chantry is what drove this man over the edge.

[Xilizhra]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I'd argue Anders is just as guilty of genocide as Meredith. Since he directly provoked her into committing it.

Provoked her into committing it at a specific time, not committing it period. She was going to do it sooner or later, Anders just tweaked circumstances so that it'd happen at the most favorable time.

I honestly don't recall ever
hearing that Anders was abused. If anything, the Circle was incredibly
lax with him since he escaped several times.

Relatively lax, but that's why I mentioned he was a selfish coward earlier, and why Justice had to nudge him into caring about people beyond himself.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 26 octobre 2013 - 05:57 .

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

At the end of the day, we do not know about who was nearby the Chantry. Remember the falling statues outside of the Chantry, while the blast was occurring? And just because we only saw that there were only templars and Elthina inside, doesn't mean there were not others present. We just don't know.

The Chantry created Anders and now they must suffer the consquences. The years of systematic abuse by the Chantry is what drove this man over the edge.

Just because they created Anders does not justify the amount of suffering that will occur as a result, at least in my own eyes. Revenge never leads to anything productive. Only more pain.
I am still of the mind that while suitably angry at the Chantry at what they have done, Justice had a hand in pushing Anders towards such extreme measures of violence.

[Lord Raijin]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I'd argue Anders is just as guilty of genocide as Meredith. Since he directly provoked her into committing it.

Now you're just being silly. How can Anders be guilty of genocide when hes fighting for the freeom of his comrades whos being held prisoners in the gallows?

Meredith is tyrant and Elthina allowed this behavior to go on as long as it did.

Not everyone is going to put up with her crap, and wont bow down... and Anders proved it by his actions.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

I'd argue Anders is just as guilty of genocide as Meredith. Since he directly provoked her into committing it.

Provoked her into committing it at a specific time, not committing it period. She was going to do it sooner or later, Anders just tweaked circumstances so that it'd happen at the most favorable time.

I honestly don't recall ever
hearing that Anders was abused. If anything, the Circle was incredibly
lax with him since he escaped several times.

Relatively lax, but that's why I mentioned he was a selfish coward earlier, and why Justice had to nudge him into caring about people beyond himself.

As long as they don't agree with the Templars right?
And I still don't get why Justice almost had him kill the apprentice girl who was to be made Tranquil in Act 2.

[Br3admax]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

I'd argue Anders is just as guilty of genocide as Meredith. Since he directly provoked her into committing it.

Now you're just being silly. How can Anders be guilty of genocide when hes fighting for the freeom of his comrades whos being held prisoners in the gallows?

Meredith is tyrant and Elthina allowed this behavior to go on as long as it did.

Not everyone is going to put up with her crap, and wont bow down... and Anders proved it by his actions.

I'm so glad that the NSA is a real thing. 

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

I'd argue Anders is just as guilty of genocide as Meredith. Since he directly provoked her into committing it.

Now you're just being silly. How can Anders be guilty of genocide when hes fighting for the freeom of his comrades whos being held prisoners in the gallows?

Meredith is tyrant and Elthina allowed this behavior to go on as long as it did.

Not everyone is going to put up with her crap, and wont bow down... and Anders proved it by his actions.

Anders is guilty, in the sense that he forced Meredith's hand, whether justified or not, leading into this war.

[cjones91]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I honestly don't recall ever hearing that Anders was abused. If anything, the Circle was incredibly lax with him since he escaped several times.

They put Anders in solitary confinement for nearly a year,that would be abuse right there.

[Lord Raijin]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I honestly don't recall ever hearing that Anders was abused. If anything, the Circle was incredibly lax with him since he escaped several times.

Forcing a man to live in solitary confidement for a year is an act of mental abuse.

[cjones91]

eluvianix wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

I'd argue Anders is just as guilty of genocide as Meredith. Since he directly provoked her into committing it.

Now you're just being silly. How can Anders be guilty of genocide when hes fighting for the freeom of his comrades whos being held prisoners in the gallows?

Meredith is tyrant and Elthina allowed this behavior to go on as long as it did.

Not everyone is going to put up with her crap, and wont bow down... and Anders proved it by his actions.

Anders is guilty, in the sense that he forced Meredith's hand, whether justified or not, leading into this war.

Meredith was already pushing for the ROA before Anders pulled his little stunt so she would have done the same thing regardless.

[Hellion Rex]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...


Now you're just being silly. How can Anders be guilty of genocide when hes fighting for the freeom of his comrades whos being held prisoners in the gallows?

Probably because he forced them to fight and die when most of them wanted no part of it.

I still remember watching some of the apprentices and mages being cut down in the Gallows when Meredith came a knocking. Some didn't get a chance to cast a spell before they were slain. Some, it looks like, didn't even try.

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

I'd argue Anders is just as guilty of genocide as Meredith. Since he directly provoked her into committing it.

Provoked her into committing it at a specific time, not committing it period. She was going to do it sooner or later, Anders just tweaked circumstances so that it'd happen at the most favorable time.

There is a favorable time to kill a bunch of people? Really? And even if this were true, it would have been much more productive to go after Meredith herself. There's no excuse for any of his actions. 

[Xilizhra]

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

I'd argue Anders is just as guilty of genocide as Meredith. Since he directly provoked her into committing it.

Provoked her into committing it at a specific time, not committing it period. She was going to do it sooner or later, Anders just tweaked circumstances so that it'd happen at the most favorable time.

I honestly don't recall ever
hearing that Anders was abused. If anything, the Circle was incredibly
lax with him since he escaped several times.

Relatively lax, but that's why I mentioned he was a selfish coward earlier, and why Justice had to nudge him into caring about people beyond himself.

As long as they don't agree with the Templars right?
And I still don't get why Justice almost had him kill the apprentice girl who was to be made Tranquil in Act 2.

Because Justice's sanity has deterioriated and he interpreted Ella as being a templar ally.

There is a favorable time to kill a bunch of people? Really? And even if
this were true, it would have been much more productive to go after
Meredith herself. There's no excuse for any of his actions.

Meredith's security is far too high, and Anders taking her on solo would be doomed to failure. And there's no good time, but if it's inevitable, there's probably a best time.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 26 octobre 2013 - 06:04 .

[Hellion Rex]

cjones91 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

I'd argue Anders is just as guilty of genocide as Meredith. Since he directly provoked her into committing it.

Now you're just being silly. How can Anders be guilty of genocide when hes fighting for the freeom of his comrades whos being held prisoners in the gallows?

Meredith is tyrant and Elthina allowed this behavior to go on as long as it did.

Not everyone is going to put up with her crap, and wont bow down... and Anders proved it by his actions.

Anders is guilty, in the sense that he forced Meredith's hand, whether justified or not, leading into this war.

Meredith was already pushing for the ROA before Anders pulled his little stunt so she would have done the same thing regardless.

But she had been shut down previously by both the Divine and Elthina. Although, I still don't get why Justinia denied her, even though Leliana and Elthina mentioned the Divine considering an Exalted March...

[cjones91]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...


Now you're just being silly. How can Anders be guilty of genocide when hes fighting for the freeom of his comrades whos being held prisoners in the gallows?

Probably because he forced them to fight and die when most of them wanted no part of it.

It was going to come to a head anyway as the templars abused their power over the mages.Most were afraid to fight back until Anders provided the match for the powder keg.