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[The Red Onion]

The new way is to return to the roots: A proposed Templar manifesto
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CONTENTS
1. On the nature of the order and its tenets: A philosophical treatise
2. Governance and role in civil affairs
3. Structure and organization of the order
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1. On the nature of the order and its tenets: A philosophical treatise

The Templars Order is the right arm of the Chantry. The current war is not the first test the Order has seen, nor will it be the last. In all tests, the key is submission to the principles of the Maker and the teachings of Our Lady Andraste. With that submission the order stands even if we all fall martyrs; without it the order falls even if its members flee with their lives. Heretical historians postulate that the teachings of Our Lady were constructed in relative opposition to the Tevinters, but the faithful knows this is folly. One cannot say that Tevinters are elders to the Bride, when the Maker is the elder to all. Thus we have not, and dare not, construct our principles in relative opposition to the maleficar. Rather, we ordain our principles in absolute submission to the Maker.

We submit that it is our failure that we have become an order of politics; in doing so we cease to be an order of faith. It is our sinful politicization that have perversely inspired the maleficar to organize likewise, giving them a rancid influence unseen since the days of Tevinter. The answer is a return to the fundamentals of faith.

Just as Hessarian asked Andraste "what is truth," so one might ask of us, what are our fundamentals? Just as man is subservient to the Maker, so must the right arm submit to the soul. Therefore our fundamental tenet is to spread the Word of the Maker to all four corners of the earth. Anyone who submits to this is eligible to be worthy of forgiveness in the eyes of the Maker, and thus a potential initiate of our ranks. Anyone who resists us resists the Maker, and we shall be their salvation through destruction. For the Maker in His mercy brings salvation to all, and a life of sin is its own punishment.

I urge you to hear us, brothers, for the essence of membership is strictly submission to the Word, and to spread it to the world's corners. These corners may be in far-off lands alien to Thedas, or be as close as the dark recesses in our own complacent towns. Therefore any man or woman, be they pilgrims, soldiers, clerics, merchants, or children, insofar as they submit to the Word, are brothers of the Order in our collective crusade. Submission triumphs over training and discipline, just as faith triumphs over magic and steel.

Once you realize this truth, initiate, you will realize that despite these trials and tribulations, our Order will rise a billion strong. This truth speaks of the real power of the Maker, and how His Word always triumphs in the end.

Thus to all faithful who hear this message, be you noble or common, young or old: Rise, initiate, rise a knight!
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2. Operational Methodology

Man was created to submit, and submission to the Maker is already his natural, normative state. We thus establish the premise that we are not a small, elitist Order, but a large dormant Order simply waiting to be
organized. The onus then, falls upon us to prescribe how this is to be done – how the troops may be procured, and the regimentations established.

The failure in Kirkwall reminds us a simple truth. In our politicization we have physically separated from the
Chantry. In our separation, we have failed to protect it. This gateway to negligence must be closed. Thus in any locale, the Templars must humbly return to the Maker’s house, not just in mind but also in body. The regional
Knight-Commander must base his operations directly from the Chantry, and enable the Word to be directly enforced. If we withdraw our sacred order from the Chantry house, we are forcing the Grand Clerics to play the middleman between the sacred and the corrupt. How can this be? For is the Cleric’s position not wholly sacred, instead of only half? If the heart of a man with all its vessels is laid bare, unprotected by his strong arm, does that not encourage the maleficar’s bloody sacrilege? Thus in this withdraw we sin, and sin invites failure.

The Order does not separate from the House of the Maker. For only such a simple system can recruit and mobilize the simplest man. Just as an honest man does not ask whether he follows the heart or the arm; a faithful
initiate should not live under the illusion that the Maker can be worshipped in pieces. He either submits to the Word, or he is a criminal.

The Maker welcomes all the faithful and care not if he be a lord or a serf. This does provide us, however, with an earthly test. What should we do, when a lord rebels against the Word, and all his fiefdom rebels with him? The answer is to prevent such mishaps from happening at all. No matter how numerous the populace in a jurisdiction, and no matter how prohibitive a collective barracks may be, control over initiates must never be
ceded to secular leaders. As long as a lord counts himself as one of the faithful, he is not to own slaves. As long as a commoner is one of the faithful, he is protected from slavery and answers directly to the Chantry. All
initiates will report to a Knight, and all Knights must be physically based around the Chantry and report directly to the Knight-Commander within.

Furthermore, the Kirkwall incident teaches us that it is a risk to have a secular force of city guards that exist
in parallel with the Order. For it falsely admits that there is another law that exists in parallel with that of the Maker’s. That is clearly folly. But there is resistance from governors to replacing the guards, on the grounds that
the local guards know how to keep the peace in the neighbourhoods with turbulence, and that they know how to clean the water and food in the neighbourhoods with hunger. This will not stop us however. If it is the Maker’s
charge that we protect a faithful district, then we will not shy from our duty to supply and control peace, law, food, and water to the masses. It is thus always advised to send trusted initiates to the tutelage of local craftsman and
learn their arts, so that such arts can be appropriated to the just cause of the Maker. The craftsman, be they converts or not, shall be paid a sum for the training. Once the initiates graduate, excess product from their crafts can be sold by the Order, and relieve pressure on the Chantry’s coffers.

But what is to prevent those weak of faith from pursuing his secular crafts to the exclusion of the Word? Do not be anxious over such things, initiate! The mercy of the Maker will not force a man to believe. Ours is to but deliver the law, the peace, the food, and the water. Ours is not to deliver the choice of whether to accept them and live, for the Maker has created every man to be free.
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3. Structure and organization of the order

Thus, the chain of command is but an extension of our infallible faith:

From the Maker to the Divine, His mediator on earth
From the Divine to the Vigilant, the orders from mediation
From the Vigilant to the Commander, the doctrine of order
From the Commander to the Captain, marshals of doctrine
From the Captain to the Lieutenant, to enforce the marshal’s call
From the Lieutenant to the Corporal, vanguard for enforcement
From the Corporal to the Initiates, the vanguard’s flock and charge

As the Order returns to the Maker’s House, so will the House receive her lost sons with open arms. Just as the Vigilant follows the Divine without question, so shall the following be in turn, Maker willing:

A Grant Cleric will directly instruct the Commander in matters of faith
A Revered Mother will rightly expect protection from a Captain
A Mother will always call on a Lieutenant to guard a flock
A Sister or Brother will oversee the morale of a Corporal’s charge
An affirmed laity can seek protection in the homes of any initiate

Thus at every step on the staircase to the Maker’s side, the arm and the heart are one. Maker help us, so let it be.
---------------------------

PS: maybe I'll write one for mages some time later

Modifié par alexbing88, 15 juin 2013 - 09:30 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Templars work fine.

The only necessary change is stronger overight. Everything else is fine as it is.

[Ausstig]

ThisIsZad wrote...

I hate Templars...
Templars can go & suck nug whiskers!!!

MAGES FTW

Mages Fail The World?

Well your words but....

We have to examine our own bias, most of us live in secular societies and see to much religion as a bad thing, same with the expansion of nations. However in the medieval society this is not the case, in fact there are only to 'internation' organisations in Thedas The Gray Wardens and the Chantry. Nationalising the mages would be a very bad idea because it would hand power over to people with much more temptation to use it. Say what you will about the Chantry and Orlais, I do not recall any story where the Chantry sent mages to fight for Orlais out side the Exalted Marches. Now if the nations have direct control over their mages well, they are the best weapon on hand. 

[MisterJB]

Of course, the nationalization of mages to each of their nations would be terrible. The solution is, obviously, to have an international organization whose words kings and princes must respect watch the mages and this organization must also have a reason to not wish harm to any non-mages regardless of which nation they belong to.
The Chantry, regardless of whatever faults one can attach to it, has suceeded in keeping mages iN Southern Thedas politically neutral so that their destructive powers could not be used if the very existence of humanity was not threatened such as what happens during a Blight.

Therefore, one can see that a return of both templars and mages to the Chantry promises the least bloodshed. If something is failling inside a body, you try to fix it. You don't simply discard it and start over.
If not the Chantry, who? The Grey Wardens can't do it and there are no other respected international organizations in Thedas. The mages can neither be trusted to watch over themselves nor would the extablishment of an independent Circle lead to anything but more bloodshed even if, somehow, the mages were to defeat the templars.

Modifié par MisterJB, 15 juin 2013 - 01:39 .

[Xilizhra]

We have to examine our own bias, most of us live in secular societies and see to much religion as a bad thing, same with the expansion of nations. However in the medieval society this is not the case, in fact there are only to 'internation' organisations in Thedas The Gray Wardens and the Chantry. Nationalising the mages would be a very bad idea because it would hand power over to people with much more temptation to use it. Say what you will about the Chantry and Orlais, I do not recall any story where the Chantry sent mages to fight for Orlais out side the Exalted Marches. Now if the nations have direct control over their mages well, they are the best weapon on hand.

I've never once suggested nationalizing the mages; they need an independent faction of their own.

Of course, the nationalization of mages to each of their nations would be terrible. The solution is, obviously, to have an international organization whose words kings and princes must respect watch the mages and this organization must also have a reason to not wish harm to any non-mages regardless of which nation they belong to.

That reason being that they lose control over their own mages if said mages harm any nonmage citizens of other nations, and possibly take a hit to public opinion.

[MisterJB]

Public opinion is 100% irrelevant given that the public opinion of mages was already the lowest of the low before they decided starting a war was a neat idea and a portal spewing demons opened in the sky. As such, there will be mages selling their services to the higest bidder, mages kidnapping non-mages for experimentations, mages who simply want to lord over others.
Independent Circle means that the "us vs them" mentality subsists except this time, there aren't non-mages with an interest in protecting other non-mages around to make sure the mages don't hurt anyone. If one of them becomes an Abomination, the mages are more likely to let the rest of the world handle it than do anything about.
And before you speak of "templars", you have already said those "templars" would be beholden to the Circle itself meaning they would perform their duties only as much as the mages who are paying them their wages would allow. Much like already happens in Tevinter.

Never mind that, even if they behave, independent mages will, like everyone else in the world, be looking towards improving their lives. Their superior abilities will mean that the accumulation of wealth and prestige will come easily which also means there won't be a difference between them and the Tevinter mages in a couple of generations.

Also, to even extablish something like that would require fighting everything in the world from non-mage populations who don't trust mages to nobles looking to either use the mages for their purposes or simply not be willing to give up portions of land to extablish an "independent Circle".

Mages can't be trusted to watch over themselves! Period!

[Hazegurl]

Lynata wrote...

One of the major goals of the Chantry, and thus the Templars, is to spread the Chant of Light to all corners of the world, as they believe it necessary for the return of the Maker. This includes spreading Chantry virtues, which include the tenet that magic "exists to serve man, not rule over him".

It certainly is an Imperialist philosophy. Of course one could argue that the conquest of "that mage island" could be postponed until they've dealt with all the other cultures, but I really don't think the Chantry and the remaining Templars would feel comfortable setting up a magocracy with an underclass they cannot protect.

I consider their duty to spread the chant more of a lofty idea that have no bases in reality once politics, the cost of war etc get in the way. Sometimes I wonder if it is just an interpretation that is more literal. Like, they really have to travel to the four corners of the world and say the chant of light or something. lol!! that would make the Maker the biggest troll ever. 

Anyway, the only other solution would be to put down all rebel mages and/or tranquilize them cause I see no way the major rebelling factions(the two larges fraternities) would return to the Circle and they may see the Isolation idea as another Circle in diguise, especially if the Templars have to continue to keep watch and take their children from them. It may just be easier to not waste resources into letting them have children and then having to retrieve non mage children. It's just a recipe for diseaster and war...again. 

The suggestion to secularize the Order and thus split it off from the Chantry has been mentioned, perhaps with the intention to create something similar to the Grey Wardens, just focused on mages ... yet still at least some of its members might, out of sheer duty towards the common people, be bothered by the idea of basically "leaving someone behind". Then again, I'm biased in that I don't actually want to see the Templars split from the Chantry. Having the Order as a religious organization, with faith playing a large part in their motivation and dedication to duty, seems like too good a thematic aspect to pass up on. I always thought the Grey Wardens a bit too "mercenary" for my taste. 

aw, nothing wrong with a little mercenary-ness I get what you mean though. I do like the whole system of the Templars and Chantry. But I do agree with them splitting from the Chantry tht has a Divine in power who has undermined their authority and quite honestly; placed their lives, livelihood, and everything they've work hard and stand for on the line. If the Chantry is going to make a radical change, and the mages are making radical changes, then the Templars are also going to have to make a radical change to keep up or they will lose.

[Hazegurl]

Dave of Canada wrote...

saMOOrai182 wrote...

Has anyone played a Templar supporting mage in DA2? and if so, was it any good?

Game makes more sense if you're a pro-templar mage.

Everyone uses you as an example of why you shouldn't oppress mages, Carver becomes defensive/supportive of you and doesn't hate you (as much), Hawke is more competent (he can break blood magic on his own, etc) and Meredith's reason for wanting to arrest you at the end actually makes sense.

The picture of Hawke sitting on Kirkwall's throne in his champion armor with Templar standing by his side is one of my favorite mental images.

So true. One of my favorite playthroughs is a Pro-templar Mage. Even Anders makes more sense. for example, when he tries to read to Hawke, his manifesto. It's like he's desperatley trying to get this powerful mage on his side and see eye to eye with him. With a warrior or Rogue Pro-templar Hawke. I don't see why he would try so hard. Probably just tell him to just join the Templars then, or maybe distance himself. 

I have totally pictured my Mage champion Hawke sitting on the throne surrounded by Templars who love and respect him. With that in mind. Meredith is right to fear this possibilty and is right to want Hawke dealt with before that happens. In my playthrough, she would be wise because I always play my Pro-Templar Mage Hawke as  a man who desires power above all else and has in fact been working on Kirkwall and the Templars to gain the Viscount seat without opposition from them. With the other classes, she just comes aross as nutty.

[lil yonce]

Hazegurl wrote...

So true. One of my favorite playthroughs is a Pro-templar Mage. 

Same. Its my canon Hawke.

[LobselVith8]

TK514 wrote...

Which part has been retconned, Blue?

Being able to perform templar abilities without lyrium, as Alistair insinuated that perhaps you didn't need lyrium to perform templar feats, and it seemed to be something he held against the Chantry of Andraste since it was very addictive to the templars who took it. Hawke, on the other hand, needs lyrium if he specializes in templar talents.

TK514 wrote...

Xil:  I would love to see the Templars return to what I hope was their original mandate, protection of as well as protection from Mages.  I think, in the intervening centuries, the 'of' part receded in importance in favor of the 'from', which is unfortunate.  If that means the Order needs to be secularised, so be it.

Do you imagine that could be how Cassandra's faction works?

TK514 wrote...

I don't think a reformed Order should be controlled or managed by the Mages.  The risk of a conflict of interest is too great.  I do believe however, that the governing Mage body should be responsible for or have veto power on hiring Templar recruits, and be responsible for Appointing the Knight-Commander, in a fashion similar to the appointment of, say, a Supreme Court Justice.

If the new Inquisition is compromised of mages and non-mages (since the protagonist can be a mage), I wonder if this issue will be addressed in how the organization is set up.

To add to a discussion you and I had in another thread, I'm not sure I would completely oppose working with some templars. My intention about how I plan to develop a new character versus what actually transpires never tends to match up - I came into Origins relatively blind about the story, the lore, and the characters, and I was originally thinking about an 'evil' character, but completely changed my mind when I saw the story of the Grey Wardens facing off against the darkspawn. Went from idealistic to pragmatic when I got a better understanding about how dangerous the darkspawn really were.

Even though the narrative lead me to lean towards a pro-mage perspective as a Circle mage, my Surana Warden still thought Ser Bryant and the Lothering templars were doing good work by protecting the people of Lothering, and didn't accept money from him for taking down the bandits. It's a shame Dragon Age II wrote him as leaving Kirkwall, as it didn't seem to add up with what we heard from the man in the narrative. Ser Otto was another good templar who seemed to take it upon himself to investigate trouble in the Alienage, even though he was somewhat blind. Prior to the release of the awful Orson Scott Card comic, I would argue that Greagoir was another example of a relatively good templar, although my character didn't like him.

The Champion of Kirkwall was another example of how things changed. Originally envisioned a proactive character who might be able to make Kirkwall a mecca for mages (prior to the release of Dragon Age II), and imagined a more militant persona for the character, but the story changed things. Hawke, for obvious reasons. Thrask (and even Keran a little) also changed things. I liked Ser Thrask, and declined the option to kill him when Grace suggested it (at a time when I thought killing him was actually an option, and I even asked how killing Thrask changed the story after beating Dragon Age II). I would have accepted Thrask's proposal into his new group of templars and mages working together had the story not killed him; I genuinely think Dragon Age II would have been much more interesting had Thrask not been killed off in such a silly way.

I hope that clarifies a new things. What about your Warden and Champion - what were they like? Do you have any idea how you might start off in Inquisition, if the 'five' rings are indications about the possible inceptions for the new protagonist?

[Dave of Canada]

MisterJB wrote...

Never mind that, even if they behave, independent mages will, like everyone else in the world, be looking towards improving their lives. Their superior abilities will mean that the accumulation of wealth and prestige will come easily which also means there won't be a difference between them and the Tevinter mages in a couple of generations.

No, no, JB. Mages only want freedom to live with their families and get married, they don't care if they'd be starving on the streets with weathered clothes, raped and abused by their superiors.

[Hazegurl]

You guys are so silly!

I also agree with you JB. I see no reason why mages wouldn't use their natural talents to gain an advantage if given a chance to and mages being responsible for the templar's wages would be insane. It places total power in the hands of mages. I do find it to be a good tactic for mages to gain freedom and power on the sly. which is why I feel the mages should have gone with the Lucrosian approach of wealth accumulation.  But any templar who agrees with an outright reform that grants mages that power would be a fool.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 15 juin 2013 - 06:44 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

MisterJB wrote...

Public opinion is 100% irrelevant given that the public opinion of mages was already the lowest of the low before they decided starting a war was a neat idea and a portal spewing demons opened in the sky. As such, there will be mages selling their services to the higest bidder, mages kidnapping non-mages for experimentations, mages who simply want to lord over others.
Independent Circle means that the "us vs them" mentality subsists except this time, there aren't non-mages with an interest in protecting other non-mages around to make sure the mages don't hurt anyone. If one of them becomes an Abomination, the mages are more likely to let the rest of the world handle it than do anything about.
And before you speak of "templars", you have already said those "templars" would be beholden to the Circle itself meaning they would perform their duties only as much as the mages who are paying them their wages would allow. Much like already happens in Tevinter.

Never mind that, even if they behave, independent mages will, like everyone else in the world, be looking towards improving their lives. Their superior abilities will mean that the accumulation of wealth and prestige will come easily which also means there won't be a difference between them and the Tevinter mages in a couple of generations.

Also, to even extablish something like that would require fighting everything in the world from non-mage populations who don't trust mages to nobles looking to either use the mages for their purposes or simply not be willing to give up portions of land to extablish an "independent Circle".

Mages can't be trusted to watch over themselves! Period!

Indeed.

Templars and the Chantry are the best bet.
Frak secularity.

[TCBC_Freak]

What if Alistair and the Warden (and Hawke too maybe) don't *need* Lyrium because they secretly have mage blood and maybe don't even know it?

[LobselVith8]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

What if Alistair and the Warden (and Hawke too maybe) don't *need* Lyrium because they secretly have mage blood and maybe don't even know it?

The recent comic series seems to have rectonned how Alistair didn't need lyrium in Origins, and the abilities of the templars seem different enough from the magical talents of a mage. I wonder if the 'dragon blood' of the Calenhad line will come into play with play with Inquisition (if Alistair survived the events of Origins).

[TK514]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Which part has been retconned, Blue?

Being able to perform templar abilities without lyrium, as Alistair insinuated that perhaps you didn't need lyrium to perform templar feats, and it seemed to be something he held against the Chantry of Andraste since it was very addictive to the templars who took it. Hawke, on the other hand, needs lyrium if he specializes in templar talents.

That's interesting.  I hadn't heard that, and now I'm wishing that gameplay had allowed for HP, Stamina and Mana bars to more accurately reflect this requirement.  I think it could have had the effect of adding additional depth to a lot of the trees if they ended up being a combination of stamina, mana, and mix abilities.  I'd also be interested to see if it is even possible to recover from lyrium addiction.  Obviously the immediate effects of not imbibing it regularly are fairly horrific, but do they go away with time and care, allowing for a resumption of normal life after?  Or is it permanently debilitating/lethal?

LobselVith8 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Xil:  I would love to see the Templars return to what I hope was their original mandate, protection of as well as protection from Mages.  I think, in the intervening centuries, the 'of' part receded in importance in favor of the 'from', which is unfortunate.  If that means the Order needs to be secularised, so be it.

Do you imagine that could be how Cassandra's faction works?

Honestly, I don't know enough about the current state of Cassandra's faction of Seekers to say.  I certainly agree it is possible, but at the moment, the clips we've seen of them in action paint them more like an actual army than the relatively small Internal Affairs department of the Chantry/Templars.  I'm actually concerned they get the Cerberus treatment in the sense that they were a relatively small, elite group and suddenly they have a fully organized army out of nowhere.  I'm also concerned, given how looks often sync with morality, that the faceless and vaguely sinister Seeker helms indicate that they may not be on the side of angels, so to speak.

All that aside, however, it is my hope that they are part of the moderate faction, hoping to bring order to the chaos and improve upon what didn't work before the war.  It would be nice to think that at least some of the organizations we were working with had only the common good in mind, rather than centuries old hatreds and mistrusts.  Just thinking out loud, if you will, it might be interesting to see them as the brighter mirror to the Grey Wardens.  The Grey Wardens persue their mandate without regard to morality or individual good.  They are a clear example of The Ends Justify The Means.  It would be interesting to see a similar organization, perhaps Cassandras Seekers, for whom The Means is as important as The Ends.  I'm not sure there's a place for such a body in Dragon Age Thedas, though. 

And that was a bit of a ramble, sorry.  Direct answer to your question;  Yes, I think it is possible that Cassandra's Seekers, or perhaps whatever faction is still loyal to the Divine, could work that way.  I definitely look forward to finding out.

LobselVith8 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

I don't think a reformed Order should be controlled or managed by the Mages.  The risk of a conflict of interest is too great.  I do believe however, that the governing Mage body should be responsible for or have veto power on hiring Templar recruits, and be responsible for Appointing the Knight-Commander, in a fashion similar to the appointment of, say, a Supreme Court Justice.

If the new Inquisition is compromised of mages and non-mages (since the protagonist can be a mage), I wonder if this issue will be addressed in how the organization is set up.

I hope so.  It may seem like unimportant detail to some, but I sometimes enjoy exploring the minutia behind what we're given in the narrative.  It might be better explored in novels than the game, though.

LobselVith8 wrote...
To add to a discussion you and I had in another thread, I'm not sure I would completely oppose working with some templars. My intention about how I plan to develop a new character versus what actually transpires never tends to match up - I came into Origins relatively blind about the story, the lore, and the characters, and I was originally thinking about an 'evil' character, but completely changed my mind when I saw the story of the Grey Wardens facing off against the darkspawn. Went from idealistic to pragmatic when I got a better understanding about how dangerous the darkspawn really were.

Even though the narrative lead me to lean towards a pro-mage perspective as a Circle mage, my Surana Warden still thought Ser Bryant and the Lothering templars were doing good work by protecting the people of Lothering, and didn't accept money from him for taking down the bandits. It's a shame Dragon Age II wrote him as leaving Kirkwall, as it didn't seem to add up with what we heard from the man in the narrative. Ser Otto was another good templar who seemed to take it upon himself to investigate trouble in the Alienage, even though he was somewhat blind. Prior to the release of the awful Orson Scott Card comic, I would argue that Greagoir was another example of a relatively good templar, although my character didn't like him.

The Champion of Kirkwall was another example of how things changed. Originally envisioned a proactive character who might be able to make Kirkwall a mecca for mages (prior to the release of Dragon Age II), and imagined a more militant persona for the character, but the story changed things. Hawke, for obvious reasons. Thrask (and even Keran a little) also changed things. I liked Ser Thrask, and declined the option to kill him when Grace suggested it (at a time when I thought killing him was actually an option, and I even asked how killing Thrask changed the story after beating Dragon Age II). I would have accepted Thrask's proposal into his new group of templars and mages working together had the story not killed him; I genuinely think Dragon Age II would have been much more interesting had Thrask not been killed off in such a silly way.

I hope that clarifies a new things. What about your Warden and Champion - what were they like? Do you have any idea how you might start off in Inquisition, if the 'five' rings are indications about the possible inceptions for the new protagonist?

A bit of a confession here:  I made a conscious choice to argue the pro-Templar side on the BSN because I thought it would be more challenging.  It is difficult for me to complete a truly pro-Templar playthrough, particularly in DAII.  That's not to say I agree with every pro-mage argument, or that I agree with the actions of every pro-mage character, but that I believe it is more necessary to prove guilt than innocence.  I might sum it up with the idealistic phrase "better to let one hundred guilty go free than punish a single innocent".  I know reality treats such idealism harshly, but if I wanted 100% reality all the time, I wouldn't be partaking in escapist hobbies.  I made a similar decision regarding the Dalish, but I may step back from that discussion.  I just don't really have that much to add to it.  I'm fairly against the concept of driving people out of their homes and forcing the majority (through arms or societal pressures) to live as second class citizens or slaves, but as a storytelling characterization I like what it does for the Dalish.  I'm glad they aren't the usual 'great people in decline who are still so much better than everyone else at everything the do blah blah blah'.  I enjoyed that with Tolkein, but it's gotten thin of the years.  I think the position of the Dalish and the City elves lends them something more visceral, and I'd hate to lose that.

Which isn't to say I plan on stopping my pro-Templar arguments here, because I don't see that happening.    I just might be less antagonistic about it, because the alternative gets us nowhere and really isn't much fun.  I'm human, I get carried away, but there's no reason I can't step back and try to be more civil when I get out of hand.

Apparently, I feel like rambling tonight.

To your coments:

Like you, I went into DA:O with very little foreknowledge.  I knew the trailer looked cool, and I trusted BioWare to give me a quality product, on many levels, and that was it.  My first Hero was an idealist.  He thought he could save everyone, and as I'm sure you can guess, sometimes the world paid for him stamping his own morality on it without regard.  The Dwarves most certainly did.  He also refused Morrigan and performed the US, so he never got to see the results of his idealism.  My second HoF was more pragmatic, and certainly more fitting as a Warden given how we understand them today.  He didn't look at problems on the right/wrong spectrum, but rather on the successful/unsuccessful one.  Which isn't to say he made every decision differently, he just made them for different reasons.  He did take Morrigan's deal, and got the stink eye from the other Wardens for daring to survive, but screw those guys, you know?  I wouldn't consider either of them necessarily pro or anti-mage, really.  The first was 'pro-good', as he saw it, and the second was 'anti-Darkspawn', and both of those ended up with Mages surving.  I have a few others, including my 'how bad can I screw this up' playthrough, but the less said about him the better.

My first Hawke was the same as my first HoF, so there's definitely a trend.  He tried to see the good in everyone, and save the most people.  He tried to mediate between the Qunari and the Viscount, and between the Mages and the Templars.  He told Sebastian to follow his heart, and Fenris to get over himself.  Like you, I refused to kill Ser Thrask, looked after Kieran, etc.  There seem to be good people on both sides of the divide, but I think deveopment being what it was, we never got to really explore it.  I was, as a player, irritated at the end when hours of attempted statesmanship was pissed away by author fiat in the form of Anders, Meredith and, most surprisingly, Orsino.
My second, and 'canon' Hawke is more closely what Senschal Brand via Aveline accused him of being, wealthy and purposeless.  Generally a professional adventurer, or the idle rich.  He still looks to help people, and is more diplomatic than aggressive/charming, but I try to respond a more with other options and not be just a purely diplomatic sort.  He gets angry when I feel he should and takes an agressive choice.  He's snarky/funny when I feel humor would be more appropriate.  He supported Orsino in Act 3 over Meredith, and accepted that, if it came down to it, he'd suck it up and become Viscount if that's what it took to end her stint as unofficial tyrant.  He still supports Templars when he can, like Emeric and Thrask, but doesn't view peace as worthwhile if it means leaving the status quo.  He's more loyal to his companions than the idea of a peaceful city, but Kirkwall is where he keeps his stuff, so....

In neither did I leave Anders alive.  That's probably down to me as a player rather than Hawke, but I just don't.  I left him alive once, and I had to make a specific decision to reload after I'd already killed him to do it.

As for starting Inquisition, I'm undecided.  I probably won't start Templar or Mage.  Though I enjoyed DAII, in spite of its flaws, I'm not sure I want to tackle that particular issue frome the inside my first run.  I'd like to see it from the outside first, before diving in and looking behind the curtain of each faction, so to speak.  Obviously, some of my decision will be based on whatever the mystery 5th Red Ring of Doom is, though I guess that might actually be the seal of the Inquisition itself, and thus not a potential origin at all.  Hmm.  If I had to choose, from what we know right now, and my assumptions, I'll probably start as Seeker, with Warden a reasonable second.

Regardless, I think the writers have done a good job of creating a world we, as fans, can debate about, even when, or even because, they make decisions I disagree with.  So even if we're on opposite sides of a particular topic, thanks for keeping the discussions going.  Makes reading more interesting, to be sure, and I suspect that's part of why we're all here.

Modifié par TK514, 16 juin 2013 - 01:31 .

[Senya]

Yes, debate is a good thing about a roleplaying game, even if it gets people's passions high.

[duckley]

I support both Templars and Mages - I believe that mages need to be trained and because they are more vulnerable to possession than mundanes, I believe they require protection.

I suggest that both the Circle and the Templar Order need reform, and that both should be governed by the state (not religion).

Problem for both Templars and Mages is that they are human - corrupt or righteous, kind or cruel, moral or immoral, good or bad... and every variation in between.

I would love to see a system similar to The Wheel of Time concept, where Mages and Templars work together to learn and control magic.

[DKJaigen]

You know this entire support the templars thing is starting to be a bit crazy when you have red templars running around who are aiding the demonic invasion . The red templars themselves basically solidified my position that the templars are not capable of dealing with demonic or magical threat. which is logical. while the average templar knows somewhat about circle magic it seems that the templar have no knowledge outside those boundaries and the result was that they where completely twisted.

[Lord Raijin]

I would support the Templars if they acted more like Ser Thrask, Ser Otto, Samson and Emeric and less of Ser Alrik, Cullen, Ser Karass and not but least Meredith.

[Br3admax]

I support this necro.

[Star fury]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Except Cullen is the most reasonable and intelligent Templar in DA2? I know this says a lot about how terribly written DA2 is, but its true.

Cullen was also the worst templar extremist in DA:O. Speaks volumes about DA2.