4643 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexanderCousland]

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Oh please...don't even go there.

How dare I present the facts...the nerve, the unmitigated gaul.<_< 

You tried to claim those who worship the Old Gods are the only ones who can control minds.I call bull**** since the Chantry has it's own form of indoctrination with the lyrium addled templars and many other orthodox cults like the one in Haven.

Haven isn't a part of the Chantry, and are we seriously still debating the lyrium thing? 

I did'nt say they were part of the Chantry,I said they used indoctrination to control their subjects.And the lyrium thing is still valid because the Chantry only recruits those who are blindly devoted(which would make it easier for them to control).

False. World of Thedas clearly states your not required to be religious to become a Templar, you just have to follow orders. 

[Reaverwind]

FreshIstay wrote...

False. World of Thedas clearly states your not required to be religious to become a Templar, you just have to follow orders. 

Say what? Last I checked, the Templars weren't a secular order. I really don't think they'd admit non-believers, but that doesn't mean fanaticism is a requirement.

[dragonflight288]

Reaverwind wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

False. World of Thedas clearly states your not required to be religious to become a Templar, you just have to follow orders. 

Say what? Last I checked, the Templars weren't a secular order. I really don't think they'd admit non-believers, but that doesn't mean fanaticism is a requirement.

Codex: Templars



Often portrayed as stoic and grim, the Order of Templars was created as the martial arm of the Chantry.
Armed with the ability to dispel and resist magic in addition to their
formidable combat talents, the templars are uniquely qualified to act as
both a foil for apostates - mages who refuse to submit to the authority of the Circle - and a first line of defense against the dark powers of blood mages and abominations.
While mages often resent the templars as symbols of the Chantry's control over magic, the people of Thedas
see them as saviors and holy warriors, champions of all that is good,
armed with piety enough to protect the world from the ravages of foul
magic. In reality, the Chantry's militant arm looks first for skilled
warriors with unshakable faith in the Maker,
with a flawless moral center as a secondary concern. Templars must
carry out their duty with an emotional distance, and the Order of
Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute loyalty
over paragons of virtue who might question orders when it comes time to
make difficult choices.The templars' power derives from the substance lyrium,
a mineral believed to be the raw element of creation. While mages use
lyrium in their arcane spells and rituals, templars ingest the
primordial mineral to enhance their abilities to resist and dispel
magic. Lyrium use is regulated by the Chantry, but some templars suffer
from lyrium addiction, the effects of which include paranoia, obsession,
and dementia. Templars knowingly submit themselves to this "treatment"
in the service of the Order and the Maker.
It is this sense of ruthless piety that most frightens mages when
they draw the templars' attention: When the templars are sent to
eliminate a possible blood mage, there is no reasoning with them, and if
the templars are prepared, the mage's magic is all but useless. Driven
by their faith, the templars are one of the most feared and respected
forces in Thedas.
--From Patterns Within Form, by Halden, First Enchanter of Starkhaven, 8:80 Blessed.

I underlined the part that you guys are discussing.

The Chantry/Templars look for those with a strong faith in the maker, while a flawless moral center is only a secondary concern, as a way to keep them from questioning their orders.

Which means the more radical members of the order will see any atrocity they themselves commit as justified, because it'll be in honor of the Maker. Like....Red Templars attacking and destroying villages as has been strongly suggested. They'll feel perfectly justified slaughtering innocents.

That doesn't mean every templar is like this, but when the radical extremists take control, as had already happened, the morals that would otherwise keep them in check, and sympathetical are out the window now.

[dragonflight288]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Yeah lets blame Anders... Anders this and Anders that but lets not blame the relgious organzation that created this so-called psychopath.

I am of the belief that you cannot blame someone else for the actions of another.

I want you to take a few moments of your time and read these two important articles with an OPEN mind.
My Manifesto of Anders

and
Chantry - Circles as narcissistic family + Anders

Come back and re read your thread again.

The Chantry isn't innocent by a long shot. They've got more blood on their hands than any other mage. Anders may had blew up the Chantry, but it was for a valid cause. He started a revolution by force to try to change things. Call it a terrorstic act all you want, but it is the Chantry was the ingredant for this total destruction.

If I was to shock you with a prod wouldn't you come lunging at me to kick my ass?

I've read those articles before. I quite like them and think they bring up some very good points. I've even read the comments of the writer in responding to those who, well, commented on them. She is quite open-minded and very logical in her analysis, and her responses to her commentators.

[AlexanderCousland]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Yeah lets blame Anders... Anders this and Anders that but lets not blame the relgious organzation that created this so-called psychopath.

I am of the belief that you cannot blame someone else for the actions of another.

I want you to take a few moments of your time and read these two important articles with an OPEN mind.
My Manifesto of Anders

and
Chantry - Circles as narcissistic family + Anders

Come back and re read your thread again.

The Chantry isn't innocent by a long shot. They've got more blood on their hands than any other mage. Anders may had blew up the Chantry, but it was for a valid cause. He started a revolution by force to try to change things. Call it a terrorstic act all you want, but it is the Chantry was the ingredant for this total destruction.

If I was to shock you with a prod wouldn't you come lunging at me to kick my ass?

I've read those articles before. I quite like them and think they bring up some very good points. I've even read the comments of the writer in responding to those who, well, commented on them. She is quite open-minded and very logical in her analysis, and her responses to her commentators.

The Women don't make sense. Their logic relies on Emotion to support their case and the omission of facts.

[Hazegurl]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...
Anders is a craven, megalomaniac.

He was an absolute monster in the end.

[...] I don't see myself when I change, only the reflection in their eyes and the sound of their screams. My arm lashes out and silverite doesn't so much break as explode in a shower of molten metal. The sword melts, running down the templar's chest, and I follow up with a wave of flames which scorch the flesh from his face, leaving only bone so hot it smolders. The trees are burning… the tent… everything around us.  Rolan is still standing, and I smell the lyrium he drank, which guarded him from the blast. But he's afraid. I see his shield jerk and know he barely resisted the urge to flee, and I have a sudden thought, "What am I?" for I've seen him face both broodmothers and abominations without fear.  And then his sword is level with my chest, and I let it come, because it is only steel and cannot hurt me, for I am not of mortal men. And when it sinks hilt-deep in my flesh with no reaction, that's when he gives up. He turns and runs, and from behind, I tear his head off at the neck, no magic, just me, whatever that is now. His blood splashes into my open mouth and it tastes like honeyed wine and the warmth spreads through me. [...]

From the DA2 website-- Anders Short Story.

Typical Anders defender.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I suppose in fairness it does seem a little out of character even for DA 2 Anders. And I'm perfectly comfortable describing him as a terrorist monster by the end of the game.

[Dean_the_Young]

cjones91 wrote...

Mages can't become abominations on their own though,the demon has to take control of them in order for it to happen.That would make the demons the actual virus and the mage a infected person.

Not really, on multiple levels.

For the first part, 'on their own'  and 'take control' is a misnomer, as Mages are never necessarily alone and demon possession can be more of a merger or outright deal. Demons don't need to be in the real world already to contact or strike a deal, as Redcliffe illustrates.


For the second, you miss that the crux of the analogy is that the risk of an abomination is analogous to a disease in remission: it is a potential that must be considered, not an inherently active trait. As the demon is not latent in the mage, while magic is the latent requirement...

[Lord Raijin]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Yeah lets blame Anders... Anders this and Anders that but lets not blame the relgious organzation that created this so-called psychopath.

I am of the belief that you cannot blame someone else for the actions of another.

I want you to take a few moments of your time and read these two important articles with an OPEN mind.
My Manifesto of Anders

and
Chantry - Circles as narcissistic family + Anders

Come back and re read your thread again.

The Chantry isn't innocent by a long shot. They've got more blood on their hands than any other mage. Anders may had blew up the Chantry, but it was for a valid cause. He started a revolution by force to try to change things. Call it a terrorstic act all you want, but it is the Chantry was the ingredant for this total destruction.

If I was to shock you with a prod wouldn't you come lunging at me to kick my ass?

I've read those articles before. I quite like them and think they bring up some very good points. I've even read the comments of the writer in responding to those who, well, commented on them. She is quite open-minded and very logical in her analysis, and her responses to her commentators.

I use to be an anti Anders out of ignorance but right after I read those two articles it really open up my eyes and ears in a psychological POV. I've always been fascinated with neuroscience and Anders is the perfect specimen to study and to learn, especially when a lot of people struggle to read him, and perfer to hate him rather than to learn from him base on his life as a prisoner of the Chantry.

If you're going to hate at least use your brain, and not allow yourself to be driven by pure emotions.

[AlexanderCousland]

Lord Raijin wrote...


I use to be an anti Anders out of ignorance but right after I read those two articles it really open up my eyes and ears in a psychological POV. I've always been fascinated with neuroscience and Anders is the perfect specimen to study and to learn, especially when a lot of people struggle to read him, and perfer to hate him rather than to learn from him base on his life as a prisoner of the Chantry.

If you're going to hate at least use your brain, and not allow yourself to be driven by pure emotions.

Funny. Those article's are based on nothing but "feeling and emotions". They require that you have knowledge of a Family structure (that includes both parents) and Draw analogies between Angry (<emotion) Parents and Depressed (<emotion) Kids. They use emotions to explain Anders decision making instead of looking at his decision's based solely on the singularity of the choice.  A criminal can explain his feelings an be understood by a multitude of people, at the end of the day Feelings and Emotions dont justify or make criminal acts acceptable.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 27 octobre 2013 - 04:10 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
I underlined the part that you guys are discussing.

Nothing new there.
ANY army and ANY force wants obedience.
Modern armies aren't any different.
Obedience is drilled and expected.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

False. World of Thedas clearly states your not required to be religious to become a Templar, you just have to follow orders. 

Say what? Last I checked, the Templars weren't a secular order. I really don't think they'd admit non-believers, but that doesn't mean fanaticism is a requirement.

Codex: Templars



Often portrayed as stoic and grim, the Order of Templars was created as the martial arm of the Chantry.
Armed with the ability to dispel and resist magic in addition to their
formidable combat talents, the templars are uniquely qualified to act as
both a foil for apostates - mages who refuse to submit to the authority of the Circle - and a first line of defense against the dark powers of blood mages and abominations.
While mages often resent the templars as symbols of the Chantry's control over magic, the people of Thedas
see them as saviors and holy warriors, champions of all that is good,
armed with piety enough to protect the world from the ravages of foul
magic. In reality, the Chantry's militant arm looks first for skilled
warriors with unshakable faith in the Maker,
with a flawless moral center as a secondary concern. Templars must
carry out their duty with an emotional distance, and the Order of
Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute loyalty
over paragons of virtue who might question orders when it comes time to
make difficult choices.The templars' power derives from the substance lyrium,
a mineral believed to be the raw element of creation. While mages use
lyrium in their arcane spells and rituals, templars ingest the
primordial mineral to enhance their abilities to resist and dispel
magic. Lyrium use is regulated by the Chantry, but some templars suffer
from lyrium addiction, the effects of which include paranoia, obsession,
and dementia. Templars knowingly submit themselves to this "treatment"
in the service of the Order and the Maker.
It is this sense of ruthless piety that most frightens mages when
they draw the templars' attention: When the templars are sent to
eliminate a possible blood mage, there is no reasoning with them, and if
the templars are prepared, the mage's magic is all but useless. Driven
by their faith, the templars are one of the most feared and respected
forces in Thedas.
--From Patterns Within Form, by Halden, First Enchanter of Starkhaven, 8:80 Blessed.

I underlined the part that you guys are discussing.

The Chantry/Templars look for those with a strong faith in the maker, while a flawless moral center is only a secondary concern, as a way to keep them from questioning their orders.

Which means the more radical members of the order will see any atrocity they themselves commit as justified, because it'll be in honor of the Maker. Like....Red Templars attacking and destroying villages as has been strongly suggested. They'll feel perfectly justified slaughtering innocents.

That doesn't mean every templar is like this, but when the radical extremists take control, as had already happened, the morals that would otherwise keep them in check, and sympathetical are out the window now.

Well, that entry is to be taken with a grain of salt, since it is comming from a First Enchanter, and not directly from the Templars. If World of Thedas states that religious fervor is not a requirement, then that is what sticks.

[DKJaigen]

FreshIstay wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...


I use to be an anti Anders out of ignorance but right after I read those two articles it really open up my eyes and ears in a psychological POV. I've always been fascinated with neuroscience and Anders is the perfect specimen to study and to learn, especially when a lot of people struggle to read him, and perfer to hate him rather than to learn from him base on his life as a prisoner of the Chantry.

If you're going to hate at least use your brain, and not allow yourself to be driven by pure emotions.

Funny. Those article's are based on nothing but "feeling and emotions". They require that you have knowledge of a Family structure (that includes both parents) and Draw analogies between Angry (<emotion) Parents and Depressed (<emotion) Kids. They use emotions to explain Anders decision making instead of looking at his decision's based solely on the singularity of the choice.  A criminal can explain his feelings an be understood by a multitude of people, at the end of the day Feelings and Emotions dont justify or make criminal acts acceptable.

You still dont understand the chantry created Anders?

Nothing new there.
ANY army and ANY force wants obedience.
Modern armies aren't any different.
Obedience is drilled and expected.

Obedience is one thing blind obedience is another and can be amoral and self destructive. religion tend to inspire such thinks as a man can no longer think for himself.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 27 octobre 2013 - 05:51 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Nothing new there.
ANY army and ANY force wants obedience.
Modern armies aren't any different.
Obedience is drilled and expected.

Obedience is one thing blind obedience is another and can be amoral and self destructive. religion tend to inspire such thinks as a man can no longer think for himself.

BS.
The templars are no more amoral or blind than any other soldier.
A man cannot think for himself if he's religious? Yeah, I'm gonna call double BS on that.

[Lord Raijin]

Morocco Mole wrote...

A murderer is a murderer and Anders still murdered people. You can blame the chantry if you want. But he's the one that planted the bomb on his own. The only thing the chantry is at fault for is failing to deal with a pretty blatant abomination and apostate that lurked around Kirkwall for a decade.

Did you ever take any psychology classes in school if you don't mind me asking you? I find it hard to believe that you're this ignorant. Are you by any chance purposely trying to troll us by intentionally being this daft? Because if you are then it's working flawlessly.

By your logic when a human beats his dog to the point where the dog will no longer tolerate the abuser and finally takes it's first bite to the owner that is it the dogs fault, and not the abuser. That is essentially what you're trying to say to us and that does NOT make any sense at all.

By the way what is your feelings about Fenris finally standing up for himself and killing the slavers who was hired by his former master to take him back? Do you think hes a muderer just like Anders? After all he did it insuch vicious way. Do you hate Fenris for being a vicious monster?

I'm not trying to be rude to you but you're seriously making me frustrated by your irreverent logic thinking.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 27 octobre 2013 - 07:00 .

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Nothing new there.
ANY army and ANY force wants obedience.
Modern armies aren't any different.
Obedience is drilled and expected.

Obedience is one thing blind obedience is another and can be amoral and self destructive. religion tend to inspire such thinks as a man can no longer think for himself.

BS.
The templars are no more amoral or blind than any other soldier.
A man cannot think for himself if he's religious? Yeah, I'm gonna call double BS on that.

But you cannot deny that religious fervor and turning a blind eye is part of the current problem. Not all of the Templars mind you, but some of the ones that were key into pushing this conflict as well.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

A murderer is a murderer and Anders still murdered people. You can blame the chantry if you want. But he's the one that planted the bomb on his own. The only thing the chantry is at fault for is failing to deal with a pretty blatant abomination and apostate that lurked around Kirkwall for a decade.

Did you ever take any psychology classes in school if you don't mind me asking you? I find it hard to believe that you're this ignorant. Are you by any chance purposely trying to troll us by intentionally being this daft? Because if you are then it's working flawlessly.

By your logic when a human beats his dog to the point where the dog will no longer tolerate the abuser and finally takes it's first bite to the owner that is it the dogs fault, and not the abuser. That is essentially what you're trying to say to us and that does NOT make any sense at all.

By the way what is your feelings about Fenris finally standing up for himself and killing the slavers who was hired by his former master to take him back? Do you think hes a muderer just like Anders? After all he did it insuch vicious way. Do you hate Fenris for being a vicious monster?

I'm not trying to be rude to you but you're seriously making me frustrated by your irreverent logic thinking.

Are you trying to hold a dog up to human standards, or trying to lower ANders to the status of a simple dog?

[AlexanderCousland]

DKJaigen wrote...

You still dont understand the chantry created Anders?

Im just not down with hypocrisy. I dont see the Chantry as some "Mommy and Daddy" who didnt hug their children enough. I don't see Mage's as some kind of "misunderstood teenager". So I'm most certainly not going to sit here and sympathize with someone who let some Church bother him SO MUCH He killed everyone. 

[Lord Raijin]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Are you trying to hold a dog up to human standards, or trying to lower ANders to the status of a simple dog?

Dogs don't like being abused just as much as humans. How is that lowering Anders to the status of a simple dog?

[AlexanderCousland]

Lord Raijin wrote...

By the way what is your feelings about Fenris finally standing up for himself and killing the slavers who was hired by his former master to take him back? Do you think hes a muderer just like Anders? After all he did it insuch vicious way. Do you hate Fenris for being a vicious monster?

Fenris was an ACTUAL slave. The Circle does not practice slavery. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lord Raijin wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Are you trying to hold a dog up to human standards, or trying to lower ANders to the status of a simple dog?

Dogs don't like being abused just as much as humans. How is that lowering Anders to the status of a simple dog?

Because Anders is capable of higher thought processes. A dog is incapable of such, and as such resorts to violence. Anders however, should be capable of finding peaceful solutions. However your likening him to a dog is striking, since Anders did need to be put down...

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 27 octobre 2013 - 07:24 .

[cjones91]

FreshIstay wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

By the way what is your feelings about Fenris finally standing up for himself and killing the slavers who was hired by his former master to take him back? Do you think hes a muderer just like Anders? After all he did it insuch vicious way. Do you hate Fenris for being a vicious monster?

Fenris was an ACTUAL slave. The Circle does not practice slavery. 

No,they practice illegal kidnapping and imprisoment.