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[Shadow Fox]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
The Chantry's law you mean.In other cultures the templars would have faced greater resistance if they tried to snatch somebody's child because they think he/she has magic.

Ferelden law, Orlesian law, Anderfels law, Antivan law. Maybe Nevarra.

And what if that child does'nt have magic?Then the templars have subjected him/her to a traumatic ordeal by removing them from their parents/village/etc;

Hum...the Templars don't take children away unless it has been proved beyond a doubt they are mages.
Usually, the evidence is that they set someone on fire and their neighbours are lynching them.

Actually Fereldan is independant and if Alistair is king he intentionally defies Chantry law by harboring free mages within his borders.Antiva to my knowledge does'nt anwser to the Chantry and their laws are created by the various merchant nobles that live there.

Usually magic is manifested when someone reaches puberty but let's assume the templars are tipped off by a ignoramus who saw a child do something that they thought was magic....however he/she was just playing with a magical artifact that a mage family member from a Circle had given them as a present.Of course the idiot masses would'nt know the difference so the templars might make a mistake and take the child away believing him/her to be a mage.

You don't think Templars are called out to false alarms frequently? You don't think they by now have certain tests they can make? It would be rather silly if they didn't have, now wouldn't it? So isn't the entire premise of your argument kinda silly?

Heck all a Templar'd have to do is use a weak Smite.

[Xilizhra]

It gives the statement that you are willing to murder innocent people, and is a statement that will not create any sympathy from the mundane populace at large. Since all they will know is a deranged apostate blew up a building with innocent priests and priestess of the chantry faith.

Thankfully, the genocide and demon attack that blew up immediately thereafter would at least create competing space for the memory of this in the public eye.

Heck all a Templar'd have to do is use a weak Smite.

That damages all targets.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:03 .

[LOLandStuff]

Nah, templars are evil baby snatching d-bags. They'd walk for miles from the Circle to the god forgotten middle-of-nowhere village, kidnap the child, walk miles back to the Circle and test the child for magic only to see that's he's actually harmless and that the villagers are paranoid brainwashed andrastians full of s***t. Then they'd have to return the child to their parents since he's normal and there's no reason to persecute him.
At least all that walking would keep them in shape and will give some poor Circle mage a break from all the torture and nasty things until they get back.

Modifié par LOLandStuff, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:05 .

[Xilizhra]

errant_knight wrote...

Funny thing, I'm not in either faction--I see good and bad on both sides--but the pro-mage arguments on the forum have a tendency to make me empathize less, not more.

The prime argument here is, alone, that the templars should not control mages. That's it. Everything else is detail that can be hashed out after the mages finish fighting for their lives.

I think your average mundane is going to blame those on the mages too.
Especially the demons. But I'm glad to see you admit that Anders was in
the wrong.

I never said I condoned it, I'm just not killing him for it and can see why he did it. Although I strenuously disagree that he's as bad as Meredith.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:11 .

[Xilizhra]

Morocco Mole wrote...

He's exactly the same thing as Meredith. Paranoid, delusional, possessed by another entity, and considers everyone not on "his side" an enemy, considers his cause just, etc

There are parallels, but Anders has more genuinely good intentions and doesn't go around slaughtering people personally; he made one indiscriminate strike, which was bad, but not on Meredith's level. And Meredith's reign of terror lasted for years, whereas Anders' attack was a single act of desperation.

[Shadow Fox]

Morocco Mole wrote...

He's exactly the same thing as Meredith. Paranoid, delusional, possessed by another entity, and considers everyone not on "his side" an enemy, considers his cause just, etc

*Nods while roasting Anders' carcass*

[Hellion Rex]

Morocco Mole wrote...

He's exactly the same thing as Meredith. Paranoid, delusional, possessed by another entity, and considers everyone not on "his side" an enemy, considers his cause just, etc

edit: They also both commit genocide

Anders did not actually commit genocide though. He may have forced Meredith into it, but he did not personally commit the attack. His destruction of the Chantry was not an actual genocide.

[Xilizhra]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

He's exactly the same thing as Meredith. Paranoid, delusional, possessed by another entity, and considers everyone not on "his side" an enemy, considers his cause just, etc

*Nods while roasting Anders' carcass*

You're making civil discourse difficult. Please stop.

I think you are failing to grasp
that Anders is just as responsible for those mages Meredith murdered as
she is. We can also add those innocent people in the chantry to the
list to. And the people killed by the fighting in the street. And the
people killed by any other collateral damage.

He has some responsibility, but not equivalent. He only gave a provocation, which isn't nearly the same as performing the genocide; you could maybe get him on conspiracy, but that's not the same thing. And that's not taking into account everything Meredith did beforehand, either.

Forcing Meredith into it is just the same as pulling the trigger himself.

It wasn't force. Meredith had a choice.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:20 .

[Hellion Rex]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

He's exactly the same thing as Meredith. Paranoid, delusional, possessed by another entity, and considers everyone not on "his side" an enemy, considers his cause just, etc

*Nods while roasting Anders' carcass*

I find that ironic, given what your name is.

[Hellion Rex]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I think you are failing to grasp that Anders is just as responsible for those mages Meredith murdered as she is. We can also add those innocent people in the chantry to the list to. And the people killed by the fighting in the street. And the people killed by any other collateral damage.

To be fair though, this was going to happen eventually, Anders or no. Although technically, if Anders had not given Hawke the maps, then Meredith may have never been exposed to the idol.

[Shadow Fox]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I think you are failing to grasp that Anders is just as responsible for those mages Meredith murdered as she is. We can also add those innocent people in the chantry to the list to. And the people killed by the fighting in the street. And the people killed by any other collateral damage.

Anders did not actually commit genocide though. He may have forced
Meredith into it, but he did not personally commit the attack. His
destruction of the Chantry was not an actual genocide.

Forcing Meredith into it is just the same as pulling the trigger himself.

Exactly he knew that Meredith would invoke the Right for what he did he even admits it.

[LOLandStuff]

Meredith was just waiting for a reason to declare RoA, and Anders gave her that. He knew exactly what he was doing, and did it to provoke her.
Anders is just as bad as any fanatical templar, as seen when he nearly goes hysterical and preachy to any friendly templar he meets.

[Hellion Rex]

Morocco Mole wrote...

To be fair though, this was going to happen eventually, Anders or no. Although technically, if Anders had not given Hawke the maps, then Meredith may have never been exposed to the idol.

It eventually happening or not doesn't really absolve him of any crimes.

I would hardly say so. I am one of the ones that believe he did kill innocent people in the Chantry. I am not trying to absolve him at all.

[Xilizhra]

LOLandStuff wrote...

Meredith was just waiting for a reason to declare RoA, and Anders gave her that. He knew exactly what he was doing, and did it to provoke her.
Anders is just as bad as any fanatical templar, as seen when he nearly goes hysterical and preachy to any friendly templar he meets.

I think we only meet a few, Keran and Thrask, who would count as genuinely benevolent, and he doesn't do so to either one. Maybe Emeric, but what he'd do in the Annulment is unproven.

[Shadow Fox]

eluvianix wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

He's exactly the same thing as Meredith. Paranoid, delusional, possessed by another entity, and considers everyone not on "his side" an enemy, considers his cause just, etc

*Nods while roasting Anders' carcass*

I find that ironic, given what your name is.

Anders doomed the Circle and murdered innocents because of his selfish desire for war so yes my mage Hawke killed him my Warden would've too.

[Senya]

Xilizhra wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

He's exactly the same thing as Meredith. Paranoid, delusional, possessed by another entity, and considers everyone not on "his side" an enemy, considers his cause just, etc

*Nods while roasting Anders' carcass*

You're making civil discourse difficult. Please stop.

I think you are failing to grasp
that Anders is just as responsible for those mages Meredith murdered as
she is. We can also add those innocent people in the chantry to the
list to. And the people killed by the fighting in the street. And the
people killed by any other collateral damage.

He has some responsibility, but not equivalent. He only gave a provocation, which isn't nearly the same as performing the genocide; you could maybe get him on conspiracy, but that's not the same thing. And that's not taking into account everything Meredith did beforehand, either.

Forcing Meredith into it is just the same as pulling the trigger himself.

It wasn't force. Meredith had a choice.

Removing the only obstacle to Meredith's desires and purposefully pushing the buttons of an insane person makes one responsible for their actions. It's why arming Al-Qaeda militants in Afghanastan and Syria makes the President are directly responsible for their later actions. Moreso with Syria debatedly, though, but that's a completely different topic.

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Forcing Meredith into it is just the same as pulling the trigger himself.

It wasn't force. Meredith had a choice.

Arguably, she didn't have much of a choice at all. If you question her on it one of her responses is basically "The people of Kirkwall will throw a riot and practically tear down the circle themselves because of this". And, as much as I disliked it, she did have a point. 

Modifié par EJ107, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:28 .

[Senya]

I would say that Meredith's duty was to execute Anders and protect the Circle Mages as that is a Templar's duty, but Meredith's sanity and devotion to that aspect of her duty is in question, to say the least.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:29 .

[Hellion Rex]

almostinsane99 wrote...

I would say that Meredith's duty was to execute Anders and protect the Circle Mages.

And yet she did neither. I had Anders help fix the problem he created and help try to save the Circle mages he had doomed.

[Dave of Canada]

Morocco Mole wrote...

He's exactly the same thing as Meredith. Paranoid, delusional, possessed by another entity, and considers everyone not on "his side" an enemy, considers his cause just, etc

Atleast Meredith was sympathetic because she was possessed without her knowledge; Anders was a naive fool who cried wolf.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:30 .