4643 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Then let's change "friendly templar" to "anyone who has any dissenting opinions about mages should treated currently alive or dead in Thedas" which is basically everyone except possibly Hawke

I am sorry...what?

[Hellion Rex]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

He's exactly the same thing as Meredith. Paranoid, delusional, possessed by another entity, and considers everyone not on "his side" an enemy, considers his cause just, etc

Atleast Meredith was sympathetic because she was possessed without her knowledge; Anders was a naive fool who cried wolf.

I would hardly consider Meredith a sympathetic character under any circumstances. I may not like what Anders did, but that would hardly ever make me like Meredith's alternatives.

Modifié par eluvianix, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:32 .

[Xilizhra]

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Forcing Meredith into it is just the same as pulling the trigger himself.

It wasn't force. Meredith had a choice.

Arguably, she didn't have much of a choice at all. If you question her on it one of her responses is basically "The people of Kirkwall will throw a riot and practically tear down the circle themselves because of this". And, as much as I disliked it, she did have a point. 

Then it's the duty of the templars to stop them. That's supposed to be the second half of their charter; not only protecting the rest of the world from the dangers of magic, but protecting mages as well. It's roughly the equivalent of American police officers massacring Arabs after 9/11.

Then let's change "friendly
templar" to "anyone who has any dissenting opinions about mages should
treated currently alive or dead in Thedas" which is basically everyone
except possibly Hawke

His arguments with Merrill are about blood magic, not that, and he never argues with Varric on the subject. Or Isabela; his discussions there are more about philosophical concepts like justice and selfishness. Aveline and Fenris both put forth their own opinions without qualms.

[LOLandStuff]

The templars in Ferelden were a decent bunch. They even had to scrape the floor after all the abominations from the Circle.
There are bad examples on both sides. But you can't just excuse the mages for everything while the templars take all the blame, even for unstable mages.

[Ianamus]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

He's exactly the same thing as Meredith. Paranoid, delusional, possessed by another entity, and considers everyone not on "his side" an enemy, considers his cause just, etc

Atleast Meredith was sympathetic because she was possessed without her knowledge; Anders was a naive fool who cried wolf.

And she had a tragic past with her parents and entire village being killed by apostate-turned-abomination sister. 

Anders was in the nicest, most lenient circle in Thedas, and despite escaping multiple times all they did was throw him back in each time. 

Modifié par EJ107, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:37 .

[Xilizhra]

LOLandStuff wrote...

The templars in Ferelden were a decent bunch. They even had to scrape the floor after all the abominations from the Circle.
There are bad examples on both sides. But you can't just excuse the mages for everything while the templars take all the blame, even for unstable mages.

The templars in Ferelden had decent examples, like Bryant; wavering examples, like Greagoir; and bad examples, like Cullen and Rylock. And you can't blame the populations of Circles for things apostates and magisters do.

Anders was in the nicest, most lenient circle in Thedas, and despite
escaping multiple times all they did was throw him back in each time.

I'm pretty sure that was the Rivaini one that got Annulled. Also, the templars outright tried to murder Aneirin after his escape, so either there's a racial bias going or simply inconsistent command.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:36 .

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Forcing Meredith into it is just the same as pulling the trigger himself.

It wasn't force. Meredith had a choice.

Arguably, she didn't have much of a choice at all. If you question her on it one of her responses is basically "The people of Kirkwall will throw a riot and practically tear down the circle themselves because of this". And, as much as I disliked it, she did have a point. 

Then it's the duty of the templars to stop them. That's supposed to be the second half of their charter; not only protecting the rest of the world from the dangers of magic, but protecting mages as well. It's roughly the equivalent of American police officers massacring Arabs after 9/11.

Then let's change "friendly
templar" to "anyone who has any dissenting opinions about mages should
treated currently alive or dead in Thedas" which is basically everyone
except possibly Hawke

His arguments with Merrill are about blood magic, not that, and he never argues with Varric on the subject. Or Isabela; his discussions there are more about philosophical concepts like justice and selfishness. Aveline and Fenris both put forth their own opinions without qualms.

While certainly more prejudiced after 9/11, I don't think you could say American police were massacring them. Admittedly, everyone got a hell of a lot more scared after 9/11.

But you do bring up a good point about the Templars job. Their duties are twofold. They also have a duty to protect the mages.

[Xilizhra]

While certainly more prejudiced after 9/11, I don't think you could say American police were massacring them. Admittedly, everyone got a hell of a lot more scared after 9/11.

I know, it was a hypothetical.

And the commoners couldn't even tear down the Circle. It's an island fortress. They'd need to steal all the templars' boats to do it.

[Hellion Rex]

LOLandStuff wrote...

The templars in Ferelden were a decent bunch. They even had to scrape the floor after all the abominations from the Circle.
There are bad examples on both sides. But you can't just excuse the mages for everything while the templars take all the blame, even for unstable mages.

While I am not arguing that the Ferelden templars were more lenient, I highly doubt that the example you chose there is what made them a decent sort.

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Forcing Meredith into it is just the same as pulling the trigger himself.

It wasn't force. Meredith had a choice.

Arguably, she didn't have much of a choice at all. If you question her on it one of her responses is basically "The people of Kirkwall will throw a riot and practically tear down the circle themselves because of this". And, as much as I disliked it, she did have a point. 

Then it's the duty of the templars to stop them. That's supposed to be the second half of their charter; not only protecting the rest of the world from the dangers of magic, but protecting mages as well. It's roughly the equivalent of American police officers massacring Arabs after 9/11.

It would have been, were it not for the fact that the Kirkwall circle did  have a serious problem with blood mages and had for quite a long time. The First enchanter himself was in contact with known blood mages and condoning their research, so it was a real issue from the top-down. 

Don't forget that we learn in the Sebastian DLC that the Divine was considering an exalted march on Kirkwall at this point. That's how bad the sitation was, Anders explosion or not. If riots had started against the mages and were fought off by the templars the Divine would probably have ordered that exalted march. 

Modifié par EJ107, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:39 .

[Xilizhra]

It would have been, were it not for the fact that the Kirkwall circle did have a serious problem with blood mages and had for quite a long time.

A. this is not grounds for genocide, B. it only really appeared in Act 3, blood mage threats in the previous acts were apostates, C. it only existed because of Meredith's reign of terror.

Don't forget that we lean in the Sebastian DLC that the Divine was considering an exalted march on Kirkwall at this point.

Because of Resolutionist subversion; a group also composed of apostates.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

While certainly more prejudiced after 9/11, I don't think you could say American police were massacring them. Admittedly, everyone got a hell of a lot more scared after 9/11.

I know, it was a hypothetical.

And the commoners couldn't even tear down the Circle. It's an island fortress. They'd need to steal all the templars' boats to do it.

That is very true too.  The templars could have controlled some of the boats. But also, there were other boats in Kirkwall as well. They could easily have been commandeered by some of the people in the city as well.

[Xilizhra]

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

While certainly more prejudiced after 9/11, I don't think you could say American police were massacring them. Admittedly, everyone got a hell of a lot more scared after 9/11.

I know, it was a hypothetical.

And the commoners couldn't even tear down the Circle. It's an island fortress. They'd need to steal all the templars' boats to do it.

That is very true too.  The templars could have controlled some of the boats. But also, there were other boats in Kirkwall as well. They could easily have been commandeered by some of the people in the city as well.

All right... then you've got the demons to worry about. I really think that a riot, which is by definition a chaotic thing, would not arise in a form especially dangerous to the Gallows under these circumstances... and even if it did, the templars should be the ones to put it down. After the demons.

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

It would have been, were it not for the fact that the Kirkwall circle did have a serious problem with blood mages and had for quite a long time.

A. this is not grounds for genocide, B. it only really appeared in Act 3, blood mage threats in the previous acts were apostates, C. it only existed because of Meredith's reign of terror.

The first enchanter himself was condoing research involving blood magic as far back as Act 1/ 2, long before Merediths reign of terror. 

[Hellion Rex]

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Forcing Meredith into it is just the same as pulling the trigger himself.

It wasn't force. Meredith had a choice.

Arguably, she didn't have much of a choice at all. If you question her on it one of her responses is basically "The people of Kirkwall will throw a riot and practically tear down the circle themselves because of this". And, as much as I disliked it, she did have a point. 

Then it's the duty of the templars to stop them. That's supposed to be the second half of their charter; not only protecting the rest of the world from the dangers of magic, but protecting mages as well. It's roughly the equivalent of American police officers massacring Arabs after 9/11.

It would have been, were it not for the fact that the Kirkwall circle did  have a serious problem with blood mages and had for quite a long time. The First enchanter himself was in contact with known blood mages and condoning their research, so it was a real issue from the top-down. 

Don't forget that we learn in the Sebastian DLC that the Divine was considering an exalted march on Kirkwall at this point. That's how bad the sitation was, Anders explosion or not. If riots had started against the mages and were fought off by the templars the Divine would probably have ordered that exalted march. 

Even though Justinia's personality in Asunder seems to be contrary to wanting to do an Exalted March. 

But, Kirkwall had more apostate problems it seemed than actual blood mages in the actual circle itself. More maleficars were found in the city that were apostates than actual Circle magi.

[Xilizhra]

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It would have been, were it not for the fact that the Kirkwall circle did have a serious problem with blood mages and had for quite a long time.

A. this is not grounds for genocide, B. it only really appeared in Act 3, blood mage threats in the previous acts were apostates, C. it only existed because of Meredith's reign of terror.

The first enchanter himself was condoing research involving blood magic as far back as Act 1/ 2, long before Merediths reign of terror. 

Meredith's reign stretched back that far; she was already cracking down, overlooking if not authorizing illegal Tranquility, etc. In any case, none of this is grounds for genocide still. Orsino even tried to deal with any blood mage rebels himself, rather successfully.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

While certainly more prejudiced after 9/11, I don't think you could say American police were massacring them. Admittedly, everyone got a hell of a lot more scared after 9/11.

I know, it was a hypothetical.

And the commoners couldn't even tear down the Circle. It's an island fortress. They'd need to steal all the templars' boats to do it.

That is very true too.  The templars could have controlled some of the boats. But also, there were other boats in Kirkwall as well. They could easily have been commandeered by some of the people in the city as well.

All right... then you've got the demons to worry about. I really think that a riot, which is by definition a chaotic thing, would not arise in a form especially dangerous to the Gallows under these circumstances... and even if it did, the templars should be the ones to put it down. After the demons.

Oh yeah, I can agree with that. The demons that were coming through the Veil were probably a bigger issue that the people of the city had to worry about. Heck, most people would have no idea what was going on for a time. And they were probably not get any actual info regarding the truth of what happened for some time either.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It would have been, were it not for the fact that the Kirkwall circle did have a serious problem with blood mages and had for quite a long time.

A. this is not grounds for genocide, B. it only really appeared in Act 3, blood mage threats in the previous acts were apostates, C. it only existed because of Meredith's reign of terror.

The first enchanter himself was condoing research involving blood magic as far back as Act 1/ 2, long before Merediths reign of terror. 

Meredith's reign stretched back that far; she was already cracking down, overlooking if not authorizing illegal Tranquility, etc. In any case, none of this is grounds for genocide still. Orsino even tried to deal with any blood mage rebels himself, rather successfully.

True and he did not actually even do any blood magic until he was backed into a corner and was rather desperate.

[Ianamus]

eluvianix wrote...

Even though Justinia's personality in Asunder seems to be contrary to wanting to do an Exalted March. 

But, Kirkwall had more apostate problems it seemed than actual blood mages in the actual circle itself. More maleficars were found in the city that were apostates than actual Circle magi.

A lot of them had escaped from the circle though. And the whole point of annulling a circle is if it is failing at protecting the city from the mages. Arguably, if loads of mages are escaping the circle and causing havok, then the circle is failing as an institution and something has to be done. 

I'm unsure at what point this becomes the Templars fault and at what point it is considered the circle's fault. 

Modifié par EJ107, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:51 .

[Shadow Fox]

Xilizhra wrote...

It would have been, were it not for the fact that the Kirkwall circle did have a serious problem with blood mages and had for quite a long time.

A. this is not grounds for genocide, B. it only really appeared in Act 3, blood mage threats in the previous acts were apostates, C. it only existed because of Meredith's reign of terror.

Don't forget that we lean in the Sebastian DLC that the Divine was considering an exalted march on Kirkwall at this point.

Because of Resolutionist subversion; a group also composed of apostates.

Mages like Quentin,Gascard,Idunna,Grace,Anders,Merrill and Tarohne exist regardless of Meredith.

[Xilizhra]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I like that Orsino knew about the serial killer for years (long before Meredith went insane) and didn't really care to stop it.

Meredith was always cracked. She didn't even get the sword until after Act 2. And we don't know about him not caring to stop it, just that he couldn't do so without provoking Annulment even earlier. If he did try to get help in stopping Quentin and thereby provoked Annulment, by your own logic, he'd be as guilty as Anders.

Mages like Quentin,Gascard,Idunna,Grace,Anders,Merrill and Tarohne exist regardless of Meredith.

None of whom except Grace were in Kirkwall's Circle, and not all of whom are dangerous.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:46 .

[Hellion Rex]

EJ107 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Even though Justinia's personality in Asunder seems to be contrary to wanting to do an Exalted March. 

But, Kirkwall had more apostate problems it seemed than actual blood mages in the actual circle itself. More maleficars were found in the city that were apostates than actual Circle magi.

A lot of them had escaped from the circle though. And the whole point of annulling a circle is if it is failing at protecting the mages from the city. Arguably, if loads of mages are escaping the circle and causing havok, then the circle is failing as an institution and something has to be done. 

I'm unsure at what point this becomes the Templars fault and at what point it is considered the circle's fault. 

It is a very messy subject, to say the least.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

I like that Orsino knew about the serial killer for years (long before Meredith went insane) and didn't really care to stop it.

Meredith was always cracked. She didn't even get the sword until after Act 2. And we don't know about him not caring to stop it, just that he couldn't do so without provoking Annulment even earlier. If he did try to get help in stopping Quentin and thereby provoked Annulment, by your own logic, he'd be as guilty as Anders.

Agreed. Meredith was cracking during most of the game. The idol, in my opinion, merely accelerated the paranoia and delusions that were already present in her.

Modifié par eluvianix, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:48 .