4643 réponses à ce sujet

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It would have been, were it not for the fact that the Kirkwall circle did have a serious problem with blood mages and had for quite a long time.

A. this is not grounds for genocide, B. it only really appeared in Act 3, blood mage threats in the previous acts were apostates, C. it only existed because of Meredith's reign of terror.

The first enchanter himself was condoing research involving blood magic as far back as Act 1/ 2, long before Merediths reign of terror. 

Meredith's reign stretched back that far; she was already cracking down, overlooking if not authorizing illegal Tranquility, etc. In any case, none of this is grounds for genocide still. Orsino even tried to deal with any blood mage rebels himself, rather successfully.

Nothing she did at that stage seemed worse than your average circle, maybe slightly stricter but not much worse. The tranquility thing was proposed by an extreme templar and she turned it down completely- its not even worth mentioning. 

The fact that Orsino was condoning research involving blood magic proved that she was actually right to crack down in the first place. The mages were as much to blame for Merediths reign of terror as she was- as from the very beginning they gave her reason to crack down, and the more she did the more reason to they gave her. 

Modifié par EJ107, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:50 .

[Hellion Rex]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Meredith was always cracked. She didn't even get the sword until after Act 2. And we don't know about him not caring to stop it, just that he couldn't do so without provoking Annulment even earlier. If he did try to get help in stopping Quentin and thereby provoked Annulment, by your own logic, he'd be as guilty as Anders.

Mages like Quentin,Gascard,Idunna,Grace,Anders,Merrill and Tarohne exist regardless of Meredith.

None of whom except Grace were in Kirkwall's Circle, and not all of whom are dangerous.

Meredith was sane and fairly reasonable before she acquired the sword.

That is extremely debatble. Considering we only encounter Meredith twice, at the beginning of Act 1 and the end of Act 2, much of what we know came from second hand accounts, on both sides. Sides that seemed to differ on what they believed Meredith was like.

[Xilizhra]

Nothing she did at that stage seemed worse than your average circle

Which says a lot about how damned bad things got.

And the fact that Orsino was condoning research involving blood magic proved that she was actually right to crack down in the first place.

But his only research was academic and he abandoned the project; absolutely none of what Meredith did was warranted, especially devoid as it was of any sort of investigation or due process.

The mages were as much to blame for Merediths reign of terror as she was- as from the very beginning they gave her reason to crack down, and the more she did the more reason to they gave her.

I'm sorry, but this is simply untrue. This is nothing less than pure victim-blaming. You cannot collectively slap guilt and horrible oppression onto an entire group like that on the basis of something so innocuous, especially when it's driven wholly by religious dogma.

[Xilizhra]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I'm sorry, but this is simply untrue. This is nothing less than pure victim-blaming. You cannot collectively slap guilt and horrible oppression onto an entire group like that on the basis of something so innocuous, especially when it's driven wholly by religious dogma.

No he has a point. Especially in DA2 where literally every other mage is a blood mage

I think you'll find that that statement is not literally true.

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

But his only research was academic and he abandoned the project; absolutely none of what Meredith did was warranted, especially devoid as it was of any sort of investigation or due process.

It is still banned by the chantry, and outright illegal. Even a lot of mages consider it dangerous and taboo. The fact he was allowing a mage who he knew was an apostate, to conduct research involving blood magic would have had him removed from his position of power at the least and rightfully so. And thats not even getting into the fact that this was a murderer he was allowing to operate freely (Where did Orsino think he got his body parts?).

Xilizhra wrote...
I'm sorry, but this is simply untrue. This is nothing less than pure victim-blaming. You cannot collectively slap guilt and horrible oppression onto an entire group like that on the basis of something so innocuous, especially when it's driven wholly by religious dogma.

Its not driven by religous dogma. Its driven by the fact that blood magic can mind-control people, summon demons and do many other incredibly nasty, powerful and real things- not to mention how much more succeptible it makes the mages who practice it to being possesed. 

If the mages are upset that Meredith is starting to get strict about blood magic then the solution isnt to start using more blood magic, which is what they did. Sure some didn't, and I felt for them, but how do you know who is and who isn't? To find out you have to invade privacy and crack down, which is what meredith did. 

Orsino said that Meredith saw blood magic everwhere as a rebuttal- but to be incredibly honest my Hawke was seeing blood magic everywhere. Kirkwall had a ridiculous count of blood mages, both within and outside the circle. Sure many were apostates when we saw them but they came from  the circle, and presumably learnt blood magic while they were there. 

Modifié par EJ107, 27 octobre 2013 - 11:01 .

[General TSAR]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think you'll find that that statement is not literally true.

Count the number of normal mages vs. blood mages you encounter genius.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Nothing she did at that stage seemed worse than your average circle

Which says a lot about how damned bad things got.

Things were tough in Kirkwall, but they weren't even nearly as bad as Anders would like them to be. So he stressed the Templars further, which made them crack down on the mages. Good Guy Anders.

Xilizhra wrote...

And the fact that Orsino was condoning research involving blood magic proved that she was actually right to crack down in the first place.

But his only research was academic and he abandoned the project; absolutely none of what Meredith did was warranted, especially devoid as it was of any sort of investigation or due process.

It was JUST pointed out why Meredith pressuring the Circle was warranted. You literally quoted the very post where it is pointed out.....
Orsino should have been found out, tried and executed for his treason. Then hopefulyl a Loyalist Fist Enchanter could have been introduced, which could ahve in turn curbed the more rebellious elements of the Kirkwall Circle, and appeased the Templars. Which would have avoided the entire situation, which would made Fiona's ludicrous points even more moronic, and it would have allowed the Divine to try and improve the Circle so much easier. So basically Orsino and his incompetent leadership of his Circle is to blame for the fact that mages have to fight for their lives now.

Xilizhra wrote...

The mages were as much to blame for Merediths reign of terror as she was- as from the very beginning they gave her reason to crack down, and the more she did the more reason to they gave her.

I'm sorry, but this is simply untrue. This is nothing less than pure victim-blaming. You cannot collectively slap guilt and horrible oppression onto an entire group like that on the basis of something so innocuous, especially when it's driven wholly by religious dogma.

It is very much true though. I realize you are incapable of ever admitting mages being at fault, but that is your problem to overcome. Not ours.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Nothing she did at that stage seemed worse than your average circle

Which says a lot about how damned bad things got.

Things were tough in Kirkwall, but they weren't even nearly as bad as Anders would like them to be. So he stressed the Templars further, which made them crack down on the mages. Good Guy Anders.

Xilizhra wrote...

And the fact that Orsino was condoning research involving blood magic proved that she was actually right to crack down in the first place.

But his only research was academic and he abandoned the project; absolutely none of what Meredith did was warranted, especially devoid as it was of any sort of investigation or due process.

It was JUST pointed out why Meredith pressuring the Circle was warranted. You literally quoted the very post where it is pointed out.....
Orsino should have been found out, tried and executed for his treason. Then hopefulyl a Loyalist Fist Enchanter could have been introduced, which could ahve in turn curbed the more rebellious elements of the Kirkwall Circle, and appeased the Templars. Which would have avoided the entire situation, which would made Fiona's ludicrous points even more moronic, and it would have allowed the Divine to try and improve the Circle so much easier. So basically Orsino and his incompetent leadership of his Circle is to blame for the fact that mages have to fight for their lives now.

Xilizhra wrote...

The mages were as much to blame for Merediths reign of terror as she was- as from the very beginning they gave her reason to crack down, and the more she did the more reason to they gave her.

I'm sorry, but this is simply untrue. This is nothing less than pure victim-blaming. You cannot collectively slap guilt and horrible oppression onto an entire group like that on the basis of something so innocuous, especially when it's driven wholly by religious dogma.

It is very much true though. I realize you are incapable of ever admitting mages being at fault, but that is your problem to overcome. Not ours.

So has this completely devolved into an Us versus Them mentality?

Modifié par eluvianix, 27 octobre 2013 - 11:02 .

[Xilizhra]

Merrill is a blood mage. You meet enclaves of blood mages in the first two acts. The only non-blood mages you see are the Elven kid (who isn't even a full mage), Marethari (who summons a demon later on anyway), Anders, and Bethany, the latter two being a DA:A character and your own sibling, so they're not exactly "random mages".

Pretty much 90% of the Human/Elven mages you meet are blood mages.

This does not constitute half of all mages in Kirkwall.

I can count the number of actual mage characters (and not background npcs that do nothing) that don't actually turn to blood magic at any point in the story on one hand and still have fingers left over.

Bethany, Anders, Solivitus, Ella, Emile. To begin with, at least.

It is still banned by the chantry, and outright illegal. Even a lot of mages consider it dangerous and taboo. The fact he was allowing a mage who he knew was an apostate, to conduct research involving blood magic would have had him removed from his position of power at the least and rightfully so. And thats not even getting into the fact that this was a murderer he was allowing to operate freely (Where did Orsino think he got his body parts?).

Again, because to reveal it would provoke Annulment.

If the mages are upset that Meredith is starting to get strict about blood magic then the solution isnt to start using more blood magic, which is what they did. Sure some didn't, and I felt for them, but how do you know who is and who isn't? To find out you have to invade privacy and crack down, which is what meredith did.

Because there's no way out! She's a paranoid marauder who'd crack down no matter what! There has to be a way to find freedom from this! This sort of thing cannot be allowed to continue!

[General TSAR]

I agree with CBG, that bloody terrorist keeps pushing his moronic nose into everything.

Modifié par General TSAR, 27 octobre 2013 - 11:05 .

[cjones91]

General TSAR wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think you'll find that that statement is not literally true.

Count the number of normal mages vs. blood mages you encounter genius.

Kirkwall is not a example of all mages or templars for that matter.Everyone was turned into crazy monsters that unfortunately skewed many people into thinking that was the norm.

[Hellion Rex]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Because there's no way out! She's a paranoid marauder who'd crack down no matter what! There has to be a way to find freedom from this! This sort of thing cannot be allowed to continue!

I think we broke Xilizhra

You want a cookie or something?

[Shadow Fox]

eluvianix wrote...

So has this completely devolved into an Us versus Them mentality?

That pretty much always happens in these debates.

[Br3admax]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Because there's no way out! She's a paranoid marauder who'd crack down no matter what! There has to be a way to find freedom from this! This sort of thing cannot be allowed to continue!

I think we broke Xilizhra

Every since I was a fresh recruit, I've dreamed of this day. 

[LOLandStuff]

Quentin, Gascard, Idunna, Grace, Anders, Merrill and Tarohne.

It's mages like them that make Circle mages endure whatnot and everyone else paranoid.

[cjones91]

General TSAR wrote...

I agree with CBG, that bloody terrorist keeps pushing his moronic nose into everything.

Some people's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.I can't condone what Anders did but in some ways people had to wake up and be confronted with the injustices that were being allowed in Kirkwall.