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[Lord Raijin]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

He's exactly the same thing as Meredith. Paranoid, delusional, possessed by another entity, and considers everyone not on "his side" an enemy, considers his cause just, etc

*Nods while roasting Anders' carcass*

I find that ironic, given what your name is.

Anders doomed the Circle and murdered innocents because of his selfish desire for war so yes my mage Hawke killed him my Warden would've too.

How exactly is Anders selfish? Hes not just thinking about himself but thinking about the mistreatment of his own people. Do you think hes angry without a cause? Do you realize that other mages like him went after the Grand Cleric before, and obviously failed? Are you saying that those Mages are also selfish in their own desire for war? The Chantry created their war against the mages for a thousands of years by kidnapping innocent mages and then imprisoning them for doing nothing wrong. Non-mages who produces a mage child tend to keep it as a secret.. like the Arls son Connor and with the situation with Meredith and her sister for an example. Why do you suppose that is?

Mages are not allowed to have propery, and could not become property owners. They could not start a family on their own without the chantry kidnapping the newborn child, and take it to the chantry where they can feed the child lies.

Hawke father and his family was always on the run because he was an apostate. Was he selfish for escaping the Circle to be with his non-mage lover?  By Chantry laws it is illegal and the woman could very well be executed for assisting an apostate.

Call Anders selfish all you want, but Im calling the Chantry control freaks. They want to control everything that moves and that you can touch.

[Shadow Fox]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Guys, leave Xil alone. Her opinions are more extreme on the side of mages than most, but that is no reason to denigrate her as a person.

I agree with the Dwarf let's not get personal here.

[Xilizhra]

Foshizzlin wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

I don't think there are any innocent templars. Everyone who participated in the Annulment is guilty of genocide.

Therefore, Anders causing the annulment to be enacted in the first place. Is also guilty of genocide.

As Orsino would be, if he started it by asking for Meredith's help with Quentin, by that standard.

If the Mages hadn't kept escalating the situation, none of it would've had to be done in the first place. Hawke had the money, power, influence, and personal friendship of the Viscount early-on to assist in enacting peaceful change. If blood mages hadn't kept popping up, if Anders hadn't been a ******, the situation would've been peaceful.

I support the Mages as much as you do, but terrorism and butchering innocent people while under demonic power wasn't the right way to go.

You can't blame this all on the mages. Meredith's escalating spiral of insanity was an even larger factor, as she had all of the actual power. You have to enact more "ifs" for this to work.

Nope. Only Meredith would be in that scenario, and he would be a lot
more sympathatic as a result. Anders, by blowing up a chantry (full of
innocent people) caused genocide by provoking Meredith and the rest of
the order.

Why do you not believe that Orsino's action would be such a provocation?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 27 octobre 2013 - 11:37 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, with those six Blood Mages from Act 1, plus some odd Tevinter 
slaver and other unnamed mages, there are also Decimus and Quintin. Both
of these are former Circle members.

Former Starkhaven Circle members.

So If a Templar does something wrong ALl Templars EVERYWHERE are to blame. But if Mage does something wrong... Well first of all a mage can't do any wrong, so it is crazy talk, but if they had to be blamed, it should be on an individual basis..... Gotcha......

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

I can count the number of actual mage characters (and not background npcs that do nothing) that don't actually turn to blood magic at any point in the story on one hand and still have fingers left over.

Yeah, but nearly every blood mage we face is in Act 3. The total number of blood mages we face in Act 1 and 2, and I mean confirmed blood mages and not rogue mages, but mages we see use blood magic, is six or seven tops.

Six or seven blood mages over 5 years in a large trade city, rife with political tensions between templars getting involved with politics, mages complaining about how little rights they have, the Qunari sitting there and so on, it just feels like six or seven blood mages over five years is closer to what templars would normally expect to find in a large city over that same period of time, maybe even slightly less if you include that group of blood mages in Denerim in Origins that none of the templars save one were willing to investigate.

It's only when Meredith has been in charge for 2-3 years that we have blood mages all over the place.

Considering how little time has passed since Act's1 and 2 before we get to Act 3, it's just really hard for me to discount Meredith and her totalitarian leadership as a large factor in the number of blood mages, especially when we know she doesn't, or at least never see her investigate her own templars and hold them accountable for their own actions.

There are 6 Blood Mages in Idunna's group alone. And that is just Act 1....

So we have one gang of blood mages, all of them apostates and no evidence they were ever part of the Circle of Kirkwall.

And I'd call it Tahrone's group, Idunna was a follower of Tahrone.

However, Grace's and Decimus' group was a part of Starkhaven's circle.

So let's recap. Decimus, Grace, Idunna and Tahrone, and those who follow them for one reason or another. With one group, we have no evidence they were ever part of the Circle, and the other group it is said in dialogue that they turned to blood magic simply because they were already going to be accused of it and put to death anyway, which is something Thrask confirms would've happened if Kerras showed up.

One is a group that truly needs wiping out, and the other is a group that ends up mostly wiped out, but did it out of desperation because of standard templar practices.

Now I'm not defending Deciumus' group, but simply pointing out that not all the blame can be put on their shoulders. Merely most of it, since they did make the choice.

"Thrask confirms this"....... Thrask was completely and utterly WRONG.... Graces group is broguht back, all they had to suffer were a few of them being amde examples of. But tehy did just try to escape, had become blood mages, and was plotting to kill Templars.. Gee.. I wonder why they had to be punished in some capacity.....

Still my point was, that Kirkwall has always been under stress from Apostates and Maleficars. A rebellious Circle is certainly not going to help the Templars do their job better.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

In an attemot to get this discussion back on topic:

Xilizhra wrote...

We've seen no evidence that Meredith would always crack down because we 
havent seen her in a situation where there was legitimately no blood 
magic. The insane ammount of blood magic in Kirkwall was slowly driving her  insane, and the more the mages used it the more crazy she became herself.

Regardless, none of it justifies the Annulment, which was my original point.

I agree personally that annulment was too far and that Meredith made the wrong decision, I just see why she did it. It was the result of a nasty cycle perpetuated by both Meredith and the blood mages within the circle, and both innocent Templars and Mages ended up dying as a result of the extreme ones within their ranks.

I find it hard to find a group to side with because both sides were so at fault, which is why I sided with the templars and spared the mages who surrendered and didn't resort to blood magic in the final battle. 

I don't think there are any innocent templars. Everyone who participated in the Annulment is guilty of genocide.

You bring up a good point. Even if they were "just following orders", they still did participate. However, I do find it worthy to note that Cullen did hold the Templars back in the end, even if it was too late by that point.

"Just following Orders" didn't work for th ****'s after WW2, it won't work for the templars in any of my playthrough's, but I also take each situation independently of each other, and sometimes may side with the templars based on what the mage is doing.

[Xilizhra]

So If a Templar does something wrong ALl Templars EVERYWHERE are to blame. But if Mage does something wrong... Well first of all a mage can't do any wrong, so it is crazy talk, but if they had to be blamed, it should be on an individual basis..... Gotcha......

Keran was a templar, but I don't condemn him. Nor do I condemn Evangeline, for instance.

And you can't blame it all on the templars either. Here's the thing you can't seem to grasp. Both sides are at fault in this scenario.

There were mages who escalated the situation, but none of it justifies the templar response or general templar practices.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 27 octobre 2013 - 11:38 .

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

In an attemot to get this discussion back on topic:

Xilizhra wrote...

We've seen no evidence that Meredith would always crack down because we 
havent seen her in a situation where there was legitimately no blood 
magic. The insane ammount of blood magic in Kirkwall was slowly driving her  insane, and the more the mages used it the more crazy she became herself.

Regardless, none of it justifies the Annulment, which was my original point.

I agree personally that annulment was too far and that Meredith made the wrong decision, I just see why she did it. It was the result of a nasty cycle perpetuated by both Meredith and the blood mages within the circle, and both innocent Templars and Mages ended up dying as a result of the extreme ones within their ranks.

I find it hard to find a group to side with because both sides were so at fault, which is why I sided with the templars and spared the mages who surrendered and didn't resort to blood magic in the final battle. 

I don't think there are any innocent templars. Everyone who participated in the Annulment is guilty of genocide.

I'm still not convinced it was an outright annullment. Cullen and the other Templars seemed happy to spare any mages who surrendered.

I'm also not sure it qualifies as genocide. Particuarly if mage Hawke and Merrill are fighting alongside them, both of whom are known apostates. It's possible to have a mage Hawke, Merrill and Anders all "annulling" the circle. 

Modifié par EJ107, 27 octobre 2013 - 11:39 .

[Xilizhra]

I'm still not convinced it was an outright annullment. Cullen and the other Templars seemed happy to spare any mages who surrendered. I think they mostly just went along with it beacuse they would be guilty of treason otherwise.

Those mages would be made Tranquil afterwards.

I'm also not sure it qualifies as genocide. Particuarly if mage Hawke and Merrill are fighting alongside them, both of whom are known apostates.

"In whole or in part."

[dragonflight288]

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

In an attemot to get this discussion back on topic:

Xilizhra wrote...

We've seen no evidence that Meredith would always crack down because we 
havent seen her in a situation where there was legitimately no blood 
magic. The insane ammount of blood magic in Kirkwall was slowly driving her  insane, and the more the mages used it the more crazy she became herself.

Regardless, none of it justifies the Annulment, which was my original point.

I agree personally that annulment was too far and that Meredith made the wrong decision, I just see why she did it. It was the result of a nasty cycle perpetuated by both Meredith and the blood mages within the circle, and both innocent Templars and Mages ended up dying as a result of the extreme ones within their ranks.

I find it hard to find a group to side with because both sides were so at fault, which is why I sided with the templars and spared the mages who surrendered and didn't resort to blood magic in the final battle. 

I don't think there are any innocent templars. Everyone who participated in the Annulment is guilty of genocide.

I'm still not convinced it was an outright annullment. Cullen and the other Templars seemed happy to spare any mages who surrendered. I think they mostly just went along with it beacuse they would be guilty of treason otherwise. 

I'm also not sure it qualifies as genocide. Particuarly if mage Hawke and Merrill are fighting alongside them, both of whom are known apostates. 

And Gaider said that those mages spared would be made Tranquil.

Hawke and Merrill aren't part of the circle, and Meredith in the end DOES try and kill them.

[dreamgazer]

Morocco Mole wrote...

You can't blame this all on the mages.

And you can't blame it all on the templars either. Here's the thing you can't seem to grasp. Both sides are at fault in this scenario.

[/thread]

[Ianamus]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And Gaider said that those mages spared would be made Tranquil.

Hawke and Merrill aren't part of the circle, and Meredith in the end DOES try and kill them.

The other Templars consider that to be crossing the line though- they outright refuse to kill Hawke or his/her companions then. 

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm still not convinced it was an outright annullment. Cullen and the other Templars seemed happy to spare any mages who surrendered. I think they mostly just went along with it beacuse they would be guilty of treason otherwise.

Those mages would be made Tranquil afterwards.

I didn't know about the tranquil thing  my happy DA2 ending became slightly less happy. But it's that or being turned into a harvester <_< I'm glad the cray-cray tempalr/mage phase is over, hopefully. 

Modifié par EJ107, 27 octobre 2013 - 11:42 .

[Shadow Fox]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

He's exactly the same thing as Meredith. Paranoid, delusional, possessed by another entity, and considers everyone not on "his side" an enemy, considers his cause just, etc

*Nods while roasting Anders' carcass*

I find that ironic, given what your name is.

Anders doomed the Circle and murdered innocents because of his selfish desire for war so yes my mage Hawke killed him my Warden would've too.

How exactly is Anders selfish? Hes not just thinking about himself but thinking about the mistreatment of his own people. Do you think hes angry without a cause? Do you realize that other mages like him went after the Grand Cleric before, and obviously failed? Are you saying that those Mages are also selfish in their own desire for war? The Chantry created their war against the mages for a thousands of years by kidnapping innocent mages and then imprisoning them for doing nothing wrong. Non-mages who produces a mage child tend to keep it as a secret.. like the Arls son Connor and with the situation with Meredith and her sister for an example. Why do you suppose that is?

Mages are not allowed to have propery, and could not become property owners. They could not start a family on their own without the chantry kidnapping the newborn child, and take it to the chantry where they can feed the child lies.

Hawke father and his family was always on the run because he was an apostate. Was he selfish for escaping the Circle to be with his non-mage lover?  By Chantry laws it is illegal and the woman could very well be executed for assisting an apostate.

Call Anders selfish all you want, but Im calling the Chantry control freaks. They want to control everything that moves and that you can touch.

If Anders truly cared about the mages in Kirkwall he wouldn't have provoked the Knight Commander into massacring them.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

In an attemot to get this discussion back on topic:

Xilizhra wrote...

We've seen no evidence that Meredith would always crack down because we 
havent seen her in a situation where there was legitimately no blood 
magic. The insane ammount of blood magic in Kirkwall was slowly driving her  insane, and the more the mages used it the more crazy she became herself.

Regardless, none of it justifies the Annulment, which was my original point.

I agree personally that annulment was too far and that Meredith made the wrong decision, I just see why she did it. It was the result of a nasty cycle perpetuated by both Meredith and the blood mages within the circle, and both innocent Templars and Mages ended up dying as a result of the extreme ones within their ranks.

I find it hard to find a group to side with because both sides were so at fault, which is why I sided with the templars and spared the mages who surrendered and didn't resort to blood magic in the final battle. 

I don't think there are any innocent templars. Everyone who participated in the Annulment is guilty of genocide.

You bring up a good point. Even if they were "just following orders", they still did participate. However, I do find it worthy to note that Cullen did hold the Templars back in the end, even if it was too late by that point.

"Just following Orders" didn't work for th ****'s after WW2, it won't work for the templars in any of my playthrough's, but I also take each situation independently of each other, and sometimes may side with the templars based on what the mage is doing.

I was trying to avoid bringing that WW2 comparison, but it most definitely applies. I wasn't trying to absolve the Templars actions in any way though.

[Ianamus]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
There were mages who escalated the situation, but none of it justifies the templar response or general templar practices.

I would argue Kirkwall and Anders in general are very good reasons for the templars and their practices to exist.

All Anders did was prove, ironically, that mages do need to be as fiercely regulated as they are. In an ideal world they wouldn't have to be, but an ideal world wouldn't have people like Anders. 

Modifié par EJ107, 27 octobre 2013 - 11:45 .

[Mr.House]

Xil still opposing mage genocide but supporting Templar genocide I see.

[LOLandStuff]

Anders sacrificed them for a just cause. Which is of course total BS.

[Xilizhra]

But here's the thing: what if the Mages hadn't made the situation worse? What if they remained peaceful, passive, etc. while Meredith got more and more psycho? Then everyone would know, Viscount included, Meredith was losing it, and intervene, most likely. However, as the game went, her insanity was matched by increasingly violent Mage activity; thus, her insanity looked like nothing more than reasonable fear of the Mages.

Had the Mages not done anything, Meredith would've looked like a fool and a murderer, not a hero and protector of Kirkwall.

Activity within the Circle didn't even become violent until after Act 2, and that was when Meredith essentially had free reign as viscount in Kirkwall. There were problems outside the Circle before then, but none within deserving of nearly such a harsh response.

I didn't know about the tranquil thing smilie my happy DA2 ending became slightly less happy. But it's that or being turned into a harvester smilie I'm glad the cray-cray tempalr/mage phase is over, hopefully.

You're still killing mages who are only defending themselves.

Xil still opposing mage genocide but supporting Templar genocide I see.

The only templars killed in DA2 are in defensive battles, and most survive. In any case, templars aren't a national, ethnic or biological grouping.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 27 octobre 2013 - 11:46 .

[Mr.House]

Not every Templar was given a choice to join or leave, and you have outright stated many times you want to kill all templars.

Modifié par Mr.House, 27 octobre 2013 - 11:47 .

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

The only templars killed in DA2 are in defensive battles, and most survive. In any case, templars aren't a national, ethnic or biological grouping.

You forgot to include religious and political.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 27 octobre 2013 - 11:48 .

[Shadow Fox]

LOLandStuff wrote...

Anders sacrificed them for a just cause. Which is of course total BS.

And set Kirkwall ablaze too.