4643 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Not every Templar was given a choice to join or leave, and you have outright stated many times you want to kill all templars.

Allow me to clarify, then, that I was referring to those fighting the war against mages, and destroying that Order would also include accepting surrender/conversion.

You forgot to include religious and political.

True, but templars don't apply to either of those; they're not a separate religious group because their doctrine doesn't differ from the Chantry (they split from the Chantry because they believe the current organization is degenerate, not because their religious beliefs changed).

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

I didn't know about the tranquil thing smilie my happy DA2 ending became slightly less happy. But it's that or being turned into a harvester smilie I'm glad the cray-cray tempalr/mage phase is over, hopefully.

You're still killing mages who are only defending themselves.

But some of the mages who are defending themselves are also summoning demons and creating harvesters that threaten the entire city. Either way a lot of mages and templars will die, and if Hawke helps the Templars then it can be over with quickly and fewer civilians will be killed in the fighting. 

Modifié par EJ107, 27 octobre 2013 - 11:55 .

[Xilizhra]

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I didn't know about the tranquil thing smilie my happy DA2 ending became slightly less happy. But it's that or being turned into a harvester smilie I'm glad the cray-cray tempalr/mage phase is over, hopefully.

You're still killing mages who are only defending themselves.

But some of the mages who are defending themselves are also summoning demons and creating harvesters that threaten the entire city. Either way a lot of mages and templars will die, and if Hawke helps the Templars then it can be over with quickly and fewer civilians will be killed in the fighting. 

Those mages summoning demons are also killed in a mage playthrough, keep in mind. And since the mages, too, are civilians, and the only way to save them is to fight the templars...

Now, I may hate the Templars and love Mages, but destroying the Order is
not at all a good idea. Blood Mages and Demons are still extremely
dangerous, and the Templars are the only order truly specialized and
trained in fighting them.

Those templars still with the Chantry and not fighting the war might be better rehabilitated, but I don't think it's a good idea to use the hard core that decided to abandon the Chantry after the Chantry peacefully accepted the mages' secession.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 27 octobre 2013 - 11:55 .

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

I didn't know about the tranquil thing smilie my happy DA2 ending became slightly less happy. But it's that or being turned into a harvester smilie I'm glad the cray-cray tempalr/mage phase is over, hopefully.

You're still killing mages who are only defending themselves.

But some of the mages who are defending themselves are also summoning demons and creating harvesters that threaten the entire city. Either way a lot of mages and templars will die, and if Hawke helps the Templars then it can be over with quickly and fewer civilians will be killed in the fighting. 

Those mages summoning demons are also killed in a mage playthrough, keep in mind. And since the mages, too, are civilians, and the only way to save them is to fight the templars...

techcially the mages aren't civilians in the battle- they are combatants, as the war is between the circle and the Templars.

Siding with the mages means killing templars who are only following their oath and their duty- one they took up to protect the city from the rampant blood mage apostates. A lot of them don't seem to really agree with what they are doing either, they are just too scared to speak out. 

You can't justify the mages defending their lives with blood magic and harvesters but say the templars cant defend their lives by obeying meredith. 

sorry about the time it took to format that right  I'm tired

Modifié par EJ107, 28 octobre 2013 - 12:00 .

[cjones91]

TipsLeFedora wrote...

Both sides are awful when they are extremists. However, it is safer to keep a powerful templar than keeping a powerful mage. The mage's capabilities are unlimited and go beyond what a normal character of thedas is able to achieve(These mother*cough*ers had that golden city thing) it is safer to regulate them. Also using anders in any argument to justify why mages should not be tamed?...no.

The Golden City story is only partially true,but since I believe in judging people as individuals I won't condemn all mages for what a group did thousands of years ago.

[Ianamus]

cjones91 wrote...

TipsLeFedora wrote...

Both sides are awful when they are extremists. However, it is safer to keep a powerful templar than keeping a powerful mage. The mage's capabilities are unlimited and go beyond what a normal character of thedas is able to achieve(These mother*cough*ers had that golden city thing) it is safer to regulate them. Also using anders in any argument to justify why mages should not be tamed?...no.

The Golden City story is only partially true,but since I believe in judging people as individuals I won't condemn all mages for what a group did thousands of years ago.

It's not so much condemning them as justifying regulations that will stop something silmilar happening again. 

[Xilizhra]

techcially the mages aren't civilians in the battle- they are combatants, as the war is between the circle and the Templars.

They're civilians who are being murdered. They can defend themselves, but they never signed up to be combatants.

Siding with the mages means killing templars who are only following their oath and their duty- one they took up to protect the city from the rampant blood mage apostates. A lot of them don't seem to really agree with what they are doing either, they are just too scared to speak out.

"Just following orders" does not excuse such harsh aggression.

You can't justify the mages defending their lives with blood magic and harvesters but say the templars cant defend their lives by obeying meredith.

They could work with Cullen to depose her earlier and cut off this bloodshed early.

[cjones91]

EJ107 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

TipsLeFedora wrote...

Both sides are awful when they are extremists. However, it is safer to keep a powerful templar than keeping a powerful mage. The mage's capabilities are unlimited and go beyond what a normal character of thedas is able to achieve(These mother*cough*ers had that golden city thing) it is safer to regulate them. Also using anders in any argument to justify why mages should not be tamed?...no.

The Golden City story is only partially true,but since I believe in judging people as individuals I won't condemn all mages for what a group did thousands of years ago.

It's not so much condemning them as justifying regulations that will stop something silmilar happening again. 

But here's the thing.....that happened a thousand years ago and most mages today would'nt even dream of doing something like that.It would be like punishing the descendants of countries where war crimes were rampant in which is absurd.

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Siding with the mages means killing templars who are only following their oath and their duty- one they took up to protect the city from the rampant blood mage apostates. A lot of them don't seem to really agree with what they are doing either, they are just too scared to speak out.

"Just following orders" does not excuse such harsh aggression.

You can't justify the mages defending their lives with blood magic and harvesters but say the templars cant defend their lives by obeying meredith.

They could work with Cullen to depose her earlier and cut off this bloodshed early.

It would still be treason, and in the eyes of the chantry would probably result in them being stripped of rank, if not more serious reprecissions. She is still in charge, and shows no signs of being truly too mentally unstable to lead until she orders Hawkes death, which is when they finally do start to disobey her. Before then she just seems to be a particuarly strict knight commander who is ordering the right of annullment on a borderline situation for fear of public riot. 

The Templars are in a tight spot, and not only for fear of their own lives. If you rememeber from Keran's quest the livelihoods of a lot of people rely on relatives who are templars. If some templars consipre against Meredith or refuse to fight they are not only risking their own lives but also potentially subjecting their families to poverty as a result if they are killed or stripped of rank.

If being a Templar is all thats keeping food on the table of their husbands/wives/children/parents then they have to weigh up the moral implications of what they are doing against their family, which is a much more difficult decision than you seem to give the templars credit for. 

Modifié par EJ107, 28 octobre 2013 - 12:13 .

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

techcially the mages aren't civilians in the battle- they are combatants, as the war is between the circle and the Templars.

They're civilians who are being murdered. They can defend themselves, but they never signed up to be combatants.

They will become combatants or this will be a very short war

[AlexanderCousland]

This cannot be denied.
Every Mage is at risk of becoming an Abomination. The circle is necessary for teaching Mage's how to control their gift. Who is teaching Mage's how to use their Magic now? NOBODY, and that's really dangerous.

[Steelcan]

FreshIstay wrote...

This cannot be denied.
Every Mage is at risk of becoming an Abomination. The circle is necessary for teaching Mage's how to control their gift. Who is teaching Mage's how to use their Magic now? NOBODY, and that's really dangerous.

To be fair the Circle isn't necessary for this.

I don't think Morrigan or Bethany were much at risk for demonic posession

[dragonflight288]

FreshIstay wrote...

This cannot be denied.
Every Mage is at risk of becoming an Abomination. The circle is necessary for teaching Mage's how to control their gift. Who is teaching Mage's how to use their Magic now? NOBODY, and that's really dangerous.

Well, technically nearly all demons simply wanted a foothold in the mortal world, and mages were the easiest way to get it.

With the big hole in the sky, the danger of mages becoming abominations may actually be considerably smaller. I can't say officially or with any degree of accuracy, however, because Inquisition isn't out yet.

[Ianamus]

cjones91 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

TipsLeFedora wrote...

Both sides are awful when they are extremists. However, it is safer to keep a powerful templar than keeping a powerful mage. The mage's capabilities are unlimited and go beyond what a normal character of thedas is able to achieve(These mother*cough*ers had that golden city thing) it is safer to regulate them. Also using anders in any argument to justify why mages should not be tamed?...no.

The Golden City story is only partially true,but since I believe in judging people as individuals I won't condemn all mages for what a group did thousands of years ago.

It's not so much condemning them as justifying regulations that will stop something silmilar happening again. 

But here's the thing.....that happened a thousand years ago and most mages today would'nt even dream of doing something like that.It would be like punishing the descendants of countries where war crimes were rampant in which is absurd.

Most mages then wouldn't have dreamed of doing it, but a dozen or so did and that's all that was needed. Just look at half the crazy mages in Dragon Age 2 and tell me there arent mages now who'd do equally stupid things if given the chance. 

A better analogy would be keeping the decendants of people who launched nuclear weapons, and who still owned nuclear weapons and had the ability to launch them, under strict watch and with fewer freedoms than other people. 

Modifié par EJ107, 28 octobre 2013 - 12:18 .

[MisterJB]

Steelcan wrote...
To be fair the Circle isn't necessary for this.
I don't think Morrigan or Bethany were much at risk for demonic posession

Being a PC's Companion is a coveted position, tough. Not everyone makes the cut.
Other benefits include immunity to Darkspawn blood, Templar abilities without Lyrium, Spirit Warrior despite being a dwarf, etc.

[Steelcan]

MisterJB wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
To be fair the Circle isn't necessary for this.
I don't think Morrigan or Bethany were much at risk for demonic posession

Being a PC's Companion is a coveted position, tough. Not everyone makes the cut.
Other benefits include immunity to Darkspawn blood, Templar abilities without Lyrium, Spirit Warrior despite being a dwarf, etc.

DO you really see either of them falling into Demonic possesion just based on their personalities and upbringing?<_<

[spirosz]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
There were mages who escalated the situation, but none of it justifies the templar response or general templar practices.

I would argue Kirkwall and Anders in general are very good reasons for the templars and their practices to exist.

[Xilizhra]

Exactly, and people like Anders are to blame for drawing them into the war unwillingly.

Only in one city. The rest came when the mages left the Chantry and the Chantry actually let them leave without a war. Then, the templars attacked afterwards; it's all on the templars for that one.

The Templars and their families would suffer severe consequences if they didn't comply. How can you refuse orders when a sword or crossbow is at your back?

Ask Nuremberg.

It would still be treason, and in the eyes of the chantry would probably result in them being stripped of rank, if not more serious reprecissions. She is still in charge, and shows no signs of being truly too mentally unstable to lead until she orders Hawkes death, which is when they finally do start to disobey her. Before then she just seems to be a particuarly strict knight commander who is ordering the right of annullment on a borderline situation for fear of public riot.

The Templars are in a tight spot, and not only for fear of their own lives. If you rememeber from Keran's quest the livelihoods of a lot of people rely on relatives who are templars. If some templars consipre against Meredith or refuse to fight they are not only risking their own lives but also potentially subjecting their families to poverty as a result if they are killed or stripped of rank.

If being a Templar is all thats keeping food on the table of their husbands/wives/children/parents then they have to weigh up the moral implications of what they are doing against their family, which is a much more difficult decision than you seem to give the templars credit for.

I understand their position and that it's a difficult moral decision. But it is a decision with a correct choice (not one just determined by me), and I feel no guilt killing those who make the wrong one, in defense of innocents.

[cjones91]

TipsLeFedora wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

TipsLeFedora wrote...

Both sides are awful when they are extremists. However, it is safer to keep a powerful templar than keeping a powerful mage. The mage's capabilities are unlimited and go beyond what a normal character of thedas is able to achieve(These mother*cough*ers had that golden city thing) it is safer to regulate them. Also using anders in any argument to justify why mages should not be tamed?...no.

The Golden City story is only partially true,but since I believe in judging people as individuals I won't condemn all mages for what a group did thousands of years ago.

It's not so much condemning them as justifying regulations that will stop something silmilar happening again. 

But here's the thing.....that happened a thousand years ago and most mages today would'nt even dream of doing something like that.It would be like punishing the descendants of countries where war crimes were rampant in which is absurd.

Because someone did something in the past it is likely never to happen again. I am not buying it. How many crazy blood mages where in the second installment of the game?

Do you really want to play that game?Because there was just as many sadistic templars in DA2 as well as crazy blood mages.