4643 réponses à ce sujet

[cjones91]

FreshIstay wrote...

This cannot be denied.
Every Mage is at risk of becoming an Abomination. The circle is necessary for teaching Mage's how to control their gift. Who is teaching Mage's how to use their Magic now? NOBODY, and that's really dangerous.

The Dalish seem to have a good thing going on with how they trained their mages.Apostates like Malcolm Hawke also effectively taught their mages how to control their power.

[Shadow Fox]

You do know not everyone tried there was convicted right?

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

I understand their position and that it's a difficult moral decision. But it is a decision with a correct choice (not one just determined by me), and I feel no guilt killing those who make the wrong one, in defense of innocents.

I can see why you would find no guilt killing them while protecting mages they are outright attacking, but believing that they deserve to die or advocating their death in another situation for having made that difficult decision in the past is a different matter. 

cjones91 wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

This cannot be denied. 
Every Mage is at risk of becoming an Abomination. The circle is necessary for teaching Mage's how to control their gift. Who is teaching Mage's how to use their Magic now? NOBODY, and that's really dangerous.

The Dalish seem to have a good thing going on with how they trained their mages.Apostates like Malcolm Hawke also effectively taught their mages how to control their power.

And for every apostate mage who is well trained there is one like Merediths sister, who turned into an abomination and killed 70 people. 

Modifié par EJ107, 28 octobre 2013 - 12:35 .

[Ianamus]

Modifié par EJ107, 28 octobre 2013 - 12:32 .

[Xilizhra]

I can see why you would find no guilt killing them while protecting mages they are outright attacking, but believing that they deserve to die or advocating their death in another situation for having made that difficult decision in the past is a different matter.

I don't believe in capital punishment; as a matter of policy, I only kill in battle. That includes Loghain, even though he enslaved elves.

If I had the power, I would certainly arrest all of the survivors, but not kill them.

[Xilizhra]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Loghain also surrenders. Killing him, or letting Alastair kill him afterwards, would be considered murder

I will not kill Loghain, I've ultimately decided.

[Ianamus]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Loghain also surrenders. Killing him, or letting Alastair kill him afterwards, would be considered murder

It is, which is why I don't. Having him kill the archdemon is the optimal solution, at least in my opinion.

Xilizhra wrote...

I can see why you would find no guilt killing them while protecting mages they are outright attacking, but believing that they deserve to die or advocating their death in another situation for having made that difficult decision in the past is a different matter.

I don't believe in capital punishment; as a matter of policy, I only kill in battle. That includes Loghain, even though he enslaved elves.

If I had the power, I would certainly arrest all of the survivors, but not kill them.

Fair enough.

[The Hierophant]

cjones91 wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

This cannot be denied.
Every Mage is at risk of becoming an Abomination. The circle is necessary for teaching Mage's how to control their gift. Who is teaching Mage's how to use their Magic now? NOBODY, and that's really dangerous.

The Dalish seem to have a good thing going on with how they trained their mages.Apostates like Malcolm Hawke also effectively taught their mages how to control their power.

The Dalish are a nomadic society. They also remove mages from their families and toss them into other clans. While even though Malcolm Hawke was skilled, responsible and knowledgeable,  the same can't be said for all other mage parents.

Plus without the Circle what will happen to any mage who's born to poor non magical parents?

[Br3admax]

I don't believe in capital punishment either. That implies that I will judge them before murder knifing.

[Xilizhra]

The Dalish are a nomadic society. They also remove mages from their families and toss them into other clans. While even though Malcolm Hawke was skilled, responsible and knowledgeable, the same can't be said for all other mage parents.

Not to get rid of extra mages, but to bolster clans who don't have enough.

[Shadow Fox]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Loghain also surrenders. Killing him, or letting Alastair kill him afterwards, would be considered murder

Or an execution.

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Dalish are a nomadic society. They also remove mages from their families and toss them into other clans. While even though Malcolm Hawke was skilled, responsible and knowledgeable, the same can't be said for all other mage parents.

Not to get rid of extra mages, but to bolster clans who don't have enough.

Regardless of the reasoning they still remove the mage from their family while only the Keeper is mentioned as their teacher. 

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Dalish are a nomadic society. They also remove mages from their families and toss them into other clans. While even though Malcolm Hawke was skilled, responsible and knowledgeable, the same can't be said for all other mage parents.

Not to get rid of extra mages, but to bolster clans who don't have enough.

This is true, but the Dalish are unique because every mage gets individual tutoring with a professional mage, and all the dalish will hunt their keeper or first if they become an abomination, making them essentially fill the templar role with regards to hunting and killing rogue mages/abominations. I doubt they would allow a mage to live with them who refused to be taught.

The Dalish society functions well with regards to mages, but such a thing would not work in human society. It is too individualistic and some villages are too small to give every mage personal training without removing some from their families and relocating them, and unlike the dailsh, where the majority of the clan are trained hunters, most villages have little defense, so if an abomination were to manifest there would be no-one to deal with it before it killed a significant number of people.

Modifié par EJ107, 28 octobre 2013 - 12:50 .

[Xilizhra]

The Hierophant wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Dalish are a nomadic society. They also remove mages from their families and toss them into other clans. While even though Malcolm Hawke was skilled, responsible and knowledgeable, the same can't be said for all other mage parents.

Not to get rid of extra mages, but to bolster clans who don't have enough.

Regardless of the reasoning they still remove the mage from their family while only the Keeper is mentioned as their teacher. 

Dalish don't have nuclear families in the way that humans do; the clan itself acts as everyone's extended family. It's not treated as being as much of a loss as it would be for a human.

Don't get me wrong, it's suboptimal, but it's also not the same thing as the templar model.

This is true, but the Dalish are unique because every mage gets
individual tutoring with a professional mage, and all the dalish will
hunt their keeper or first if they become an abomination, making them
essentially fill the templar role with regards to hunting and killing
rogue mages/abominations. I doubt they would allow a mage to live with
them who refused to be taught.

Therein lies the difference between being taught and imprisoned.

The Dalish society functions well with regards to mages, but such a
thing would not work in human society. It is too individualistic to give
every mage personal training without removing some from their families
and relocating them, and unlike the dailsh, where the majority of the
clan are trained hunters, most villages have little defense, so if an
abomination were to manifest there would be no-one to deal with it
before it killed a significant number of people.

Then perhaps other societal reforms need to be made to human society. Having a single location where mages live and are taught may be advantageous, but the important thing is that the Templar Order shouldn't run it.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 28 octobre 2013 - 12:51 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Dalish are a nomadic society. They also remove mages from their families and toss them into other clans. While even though Malcolm Hawke was skilled, responsible and knowledgeable, the same can't be said for all other mage parents.

Not to get rid of extra mages, but to bolster clans who don't have enough.

That is one way to look at it...

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Dalish are a nomadic society. They also remove mages from their families and toss them into other clans. While even though Malcolm Hawke was skilled, responsible and knowledgeable, the same can't be said for all other mage parents.

Not to get rid of extra mages, but to bolster clans who don't have enough.

That is one way to look at it...

It's the only way. There aren't just two mages to a clan. Aneirin is an extra mage in Zathrian's, and Lanaya mentions competing against yet others for the chance of becoming First.

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

This is true, but the Dalish are unique because every mage gets
individual tutoring with a professional mage, and all the dalish will
hunt their keeper or first if they become an abomination, making them
essentially fill the templar role with regards to hunting and killing
rogue mages/abominations. I doubt they would allow a mage to live with
them who refused to be taught.

Therein lies the difference between being taught and imprisoned.

Forced tutoring still results in lack of freedom though, and something would still have to be done about people who are too lazy to learn how to use magic properly or practiced forbidden things like blood magic. And abominations. 

I want to know exactly what the free mages plan to do. Wanting freedom is all well and good, but there has to be some sort of system to keep all mages in check. 

Xilizhra wrote...

The Dalish society functions well with regards to mages, but such a 
thing would not work in human society. It is too individualistic to give
every mage personal training without removing some from their families 
and relocating them, and unlike the dailsh, where the majority of the 
clan are trained hunters, most villages have little defense, so if an 
abomination were to manifest there would be no-one to deal with it 
before it killed a significant number of people.

Then perhaps other societal reforms need to be made to human society. Having a single location where mages live and are taught may be advantageous, but the important thing is that the Templar Order shouldn't run it.

This is why I don't advocate mage freedom. True mage freedom simply isn't feasible, just an improved circle system run by mages.

Modifié par EJ107, 28 octobre 2013 - 01:00 .

[Xilizhra]

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This is true, but the Dalish are unique because every mage gets
individual tutoring with a professional mage, and all the dalish will
hunt their keeper or first if they become an abomination, making them
essentially fill the templar role with regards to hunting and killing
rogue mages/abominations. I doubt they would allow a mage to live with
them who refused to be taught.

Therein lies the difference between being taught and imprisoned.

Forced tutoring still results in lack of freedom though, and something would still have to be done about people who are too lazy to learn how to use magic properly or practiced forbidden things like blood magic. And abominations. 

I want to know exactly what the free mages plan to do. Wanting freedom is all well and good, but there has to be some sort of system to keep all mages in check. 

I don't want to forbid blood magic. Perhaps have it be restricted to certain skill levels, but not forbidden out of hand; it's too potentially useful and not all of its applications are harmful. And I can't say what should be done right now, as in-universe, the war's barely begun still; we need to see DAI, otherwise there's nothing new to say that wasn't said following Asunder.

This is why I don't advocate mage freedom. True mage freedom simply
isn't feasible, just an improved circle system run by mages.

It may take time, but that's still a vast step up from the status quo.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 28 octobre 2013 - 12:58 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Dalish are a nomadic society. They also remove mages from their families and toss them into other clans. While even though Malcolm Hawke was skilled, responsible and knowledgeable, the same can't be said for all other mage parents.

Not to get rid of extra mages, but to bolster clans who don't have enough.

That is one way to look at it...

It's the only way. There aren't just two mages to a clan. Aneirin is an extra mage in Zathrian's, and Lanaya mentions competing against yet others for the chance of becoming First.

Aneirin is not really a part of the clan though. He is an honorary member. He lives in the Brecillian Forest and does not travel with the clan. He doesn't even live with them whenever they are in the Brecillian...
And where are these others she competed with? They certainly aren't in the clan anymore. Thing is YOU don't know how Dalish see their surplus mages. I know you would love it to be benevolent and good, and that the Dalish got all the answers. But lets be cynical here shall we? The Dalish, just like any other people, really don't want magic and mages to grow too fast out of hand..

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Dalish are a nomadic society. They also remove mages from their families and toss them into other clans. While even though Malcolm Hawke was skilled, responsible and knowledgeable, the same can't be said for all other mage parents.

Not to get rid of extra mages, but to bolster clans who don't have enough.

Regardless of the reasoning they still remove the mage from their family while only the Keeper is mentioned as their teacher. 

Dalish don't have nuclear families in the way that humans do; the clan itself acts as everyone's extended family. It's not treated as being as much of a loss as it would be for a human.

Don't get me wrong, it's suboptimal, but it's also not the same thing as the templar model.

This further proves my point on how incompatible their cultural practices, values and system are to the majority of Thedas's human societies. 

[Bleachrude]

Steelcan wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
To be fair the Circle isn't necessary for this.
I don't think Morrigan or Bethany were much at risk for demonic posession

Being a PC's Companion is a coveted position, tough. Not everyone makes the cut.
Other benefits include immunity to Darkspawn blood, Templar abilities without Lyrium, Spirit Warrior despite being a dwarf, etc.

DO you really see either of them falling into Demonic possesion just based on their personalities and upbringing?<_<

Actually, I think both games to show how dangerous it is supposed to be when facing demons.

In the Fade, only Sten and morrigan were able to "defeat" their demons and morrigan herself admits that it was because her demon was way too nice and if it had actually treated her in the beginning as it did near the end, it would've been more convincing.

In DA2, again when you have the fade section with your party, everybody will try to murder knife you, even your LI 

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Dalish are a nomadic society. They also remove mages from their families and toss them into other clans. While even though Malcolm Hawke was skilled, responsible and knowledgeable, the same can't be said for all other mage parents.

Not to get rid of extra mages, but to bolster clans who don't have enough.

That is one way to look at it...

It's the only way. There aren't just two mages to a clan. Aneirin is an extra mage in Zathrian's, and Lanaya mentions competing against yet others for the chance of becoming First.

Aneirin is not really a part of the clan though. He is an honorary member. He lives in the Brecillian Forest and does not travel with the clan. He doesn't even live with them whenever they are in the Brecillian...
And where are these others she competed with? They certainly aren't in the clan anymore. Thing is YOU don't know how Dalish see their surplus mages. I know you would love it to be benevolent and good, and that the Dalish got all the answers. But lets be cynical here shall we? The Dalish, just like any other people, really don't want magic and mages to grow too fast out of hand..

Except that's not what we were presented with.The Dalish respect their mages and value them far more than the Andrastian nations,the only reason they would send mages to other clans would be to bolster the numbers of that clan.

[Xilizhra]

Aneirin is not really a part of the clan though. He is an honorary member. He lives in the Brecillian Forest and does not travel with the clan. He doesn't even live with them whenever they are in the Brecillian...

He's part of the clan, he just tends to like being alone.

And where are these others she competed with? They certainly aren't in the clan anymore. Thing is YOU don't know how Dalish see their surplus mages. I know you would love it to be benevolent and good, and that the Dalish got all the answers. But lets be cynical here shall we? The Dalish, just like any other people, really don't want magic and mages to grow too fast out of hand..

Elora the halla keeper is a mage, at least, as can be proven if you side with the werewolves. And I'm assuming that the total Dalish population of the clan is a bit larger than twenty people and some-odd children, due to gameplay/story segregation.

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...
Except that's not what we were presented with.The Dalish respect their mages and value them far more than the Andrastian nations,the only reason they would send mages to other clans would be to bolster the numbers of that clan.

I'm sure that is what the Dalish tells each other to feel warm at night, right after the stories of their lost immortality, and how humans are to blame for everything.

Xilizhra wrote...

Aneirin is not really a part of the clan though. He is an honorary member. He lives in the Brecillian Forest and does not travel with the clan. He doesn't even live with them whenever they are in the Brecillian...

He's part of the clan, he just tends to like being alone.

Yeah, but no.

Xilizhra wrote...

And where are these others she competed with? They certainly aren't in the clan anymore. Thing is YOU don't know how Dalish see their surplus mages. I know you would love it to be benevolent and good, and that the Dalish got all the answers. But lets be cynical here shall we? The Dalish, just like any other people, really don't want magic and mages to grow too fast out of hand..

Elora the halla keeper is a mage, at least, as can be proven if you side with the werewolves. And I'm assuming that the total Dalish population of the clan is a bit larger than twenty people and some-odd children, due to gameplay/story segregation.

She is also rather old. I wouldn't be surprised if she was Zathrien's previous First, but he had to exchange her for a newer model. So to speak. Obviously no other clan is going to want her either, since she is by now far too old to be a First, and a clan rarely need a new Keeper that they don't have a FIrst themselves to repalce. So it makes sense for Zathrien's clan to have more mages than the usual two.