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The *I support the Templars* Thread V2


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#1126
Xilizhra

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Yeah, but no.

I'm sorry, but I'm the correct one.

She is also rather old. I wouldn't be surprised if she was Zathrien's previous First, but he had to exchange her for a newer model. So to speak. Obviously no other clan is going to want her either, since she is by now far too old to be a First, and a clan rarely need a new Keeper that they don't have a FIrst themselves to repalce. So it makes sense for Zathrien's clan to have more mages than the usual two.

This seems like an extremely convoluted way of denying that the Dalish have anything good.

#1127
Reaverwind

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Xilizhra wrote...

Yeah, but no.

I'm sorry, but I'm the correct one.

She is also rather old. I wouldn't be surprised if she was Zathrien's previous First, but he had to exchange her for a newer model. So to speak. Obviously no other clan is going to want her either, since she is by now far too old to be a First, and a clan rarely need a new Keeper that they don't have a FIrst themselves to repalce. So it makes sense for Zathrien's clan to have more mages than the usual two.

This seems like an extremely convoluted way of denying that the Dalish have anything good.


The Dalish are irrelevent. They're a nomadic culture. And their little magocracy isn't working out so great. 

#1128
Xilizhra

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Reaverwind wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yeah, but no.

I'm sorry, but I'm the correct one.

She is also rather old. I wouldn't be surprised if she was Zathrien's previous First, but he had to exchange her for a newer model. So to speak. Obviously no other clan is going to want her either, since she is by now far too old to be a First, and a clan rarely need a new Keeper that they don't have a FIrst themselves to repalce. So it makes sense for Zathrien's clan to have more mages than the usual two.

This seems like an extremely convoluted way of denying that the Dalish have anything good.


The Dalish are irrelevent. They're a nomadic culture. And their little magocracy isn't working out so great. 

I very much doubt they'll stay so irrelevant to you for much longer.

#1129
cjones91

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Reaverwind wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yeah, but no.

I'm sorry, but I'm the correct one.

She is also rather old. I wouldn't be surprised if she was Zathrien's previous First, but he had to exchange her for a newer model. So to speak. Obviously no other clan is going to want her either, since she is by now far too old to be a First, and a clan rarely need a new Keeper that they don't have a FIrst themselves to repalce. So it makes sense for Zathrien's clan to have more mages than the usual two.

This seems like an extremely convoluted way of denying that the Dalish have anything good.


The Dalish are irrelevent. They're a nomadic culture. And their little magocracy isn't working out so great. 

The fact they are still around proves otherwise.

#1130
Dean_the_Young

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Lord Raijin wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...
Considering you don't even know what a psychopath is. I must ask you if you've taken any classes outside of what you've seen on television.


Yes I know what a psychopath is. I get my sources from actual forensic textbooks, not from wikipedia :) I've even met a top forensic scientst,have you? where do you get your source of information from?

...did you really try an appeal to authority with someone who's in a different field of science? One that isn't even in medicine?

That's... kinda pathetic, really. I could at least point to someone who actually has an education on the topic of pyschological disorders before pointing you towards a summary of the standards of psycopathy.

#1131
Lord Raijin

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Morocco Mole wrote...

I suggest you start paying attention next time you talk to a "top forensic scientist" then.


You've never answered to my question. Where are you getting your source of information from? I would like to compare my source to yours.


Where have I denied that there haven't been any abuses in the Circles?

The moment that you started bashing Anders.

So basically we are going back down the route of making stuff up about Elthina to make our argument hold more weight, hmm? Its true she was a compromiser (and this ultimately made the situation much worse) but that hardly makes her a terrible person on the level of a slaver or Anders.


How is it making stuffs up about Elthina? She gave false hope to mages, and Meredith knows about it too. It was only time before something like what Anders did happen. Like I said before mages had tried to assassinated the Grand Cleric, but failed.  Elthina may not be a slaver, but shes very much like a prison warden. Not much different than a slaver.

It gives the statement that you are willing to murder innocent people, and is a statement that will not create any sympathy from the mundane populace at large. Since all they will know is a deranged apostate blew up a building with innocent priests and priestess of the chantry faith.


I see it as a statement that "We will no longer bow down to the Chantry" unfortunetly innocent people will be among the casualties, but that is just the way of life during war. The fact is the Chantry all brought this upon themselves for imprisoning innocent mages. Yes Mages are dangerous, but that doesn't mean that you need to lock all of them up. Allow them to prove themselves worthy for society, and then let them be of good use for the community.  You know... let them use their magic to serve man, like the Maker wants man to.

Oh and I do not view priests and priestess of the Chantry to be "innocent" they're the problem, not the solution.

#1132
Lord Raijin

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ScarMK wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...


Must we summon Dean again?


What?

#1133
Star fury

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Morocco Mole wrote...

Loghain also surrenders. Killing him, or letting Alastair kill him afterwards, would be considered murder


If you judge by the XXI century standards, yes. It is not by medieval standards, but that's a common mistake on bsn. Loghain lost a trial by combat, thus he's guilty.

Modifié par Star fury, 28 octobre 2013 - 03:47 .


#1134
Lord Raijin

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Dean_the_Young wrote...
I could at least point to someone who actually has an education on the topic of pyschological disorders before pointing you towards a summary of the standards of psycopathy.



Point away fearless leader. Point me to this person that you know who has a degree in pyschological disorders. I want them to come here and join the debate, but before that I want them to research the history of the Chantry. I want them study Anders behavior and give us a complete non biaspyschological profile of this character.

If my friend, who happens to be a known forensic criminal profiler, wasn't so busy with RL issues I would've invited her to join into this debate, and essentinally tell you all that Anders was driven by the abuse by the Chantry to commit these henious crimes.

Like I said before Anders wasn't born to be monsterous, he was made to be one by the Chantry. If you can't understand this simple logic then I don't know what else I can tell you. I've made it as simple as I can possibly can.

#1135
ScarMK

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Lord Raijin wrote...

If my friend, who happens to be a known forensic criminal profiler, wasn't so busy with RL issues I would've invited her to join into this debate, and essentinally tell you all that Anders was driven by the abuse by the Chantry to commit these henious crimes.


How fortuitous that your friend is so busy in RL and can't do it, but you already know that she would side with you.

#1136
dragonflight288

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ScarMK wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

If my friend, who happens to be a known forensic criminal profiler, wasn't so busy with RL issues I would've invited her to join into this debate, and essentinally tell you all that Anders was driven by the abuse by the Chantry to commit these henious crimes.


How fortuitous that your friend is so busy in RL and can't do it, but you already know that she would side with you.


I've taken classes on psychology and psychiatry (well, one semester only) but I can safely say that many experts, and the modern media, would agree with Lord Raijin that Anders was driven to his actions by the Chantry and those who abused him in his past, and would place less blame on him than on the chantry.

#1137
Br3admax

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dragonflight288 wrote...

ScarMK wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

If my friend, who happens to be a known forensic criminal profiler, wasn't so busy with RL issues I would've invited her to join into this debate, and essentinally tell you all that Anders was driven by the abuse by the Chantry to commit these henious crimes.


How fortuitous that your friend is so busy in RL and can't do it, but you already know that she would side with you.


I've taken classes on psychology and psychiatry (well, one semester only) but I can safely say that many experts, and the modern media, would agree with Lord Raijin that Anders was driven to his actions by the Chantry and those who abused him in his past, and would place less blame on him than on the chantry.

No, you really can't. 

#1138
Steelcan

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dragonflight288 wrote...

ScarMK wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

If my friend, who happens to be a known forensic criminal profiler, wasn't so busy with RL issues I would've invited her to join into this debate, and essentinally tell you all that Anders was driven by the abuse by the Chantry to commit these henious crimes.


How fortuitous that your friend is so busy in RL and can't do it, but you already know that she would side with you.


I've taken classes on psychology and psychiatry (well, one semester only) but I can safely say that many experts, and the modern media, would agree with Lord Raijin that Anders was driven to his actions by the Chantry and those who abused him in his past, and would place less blame on him than on the chantry.

Just because there is a cause doesn't mean you don't treat the symptoms as well

#1139
Lord Raijin

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ScarMK wrote...

How fortuitous that your friend is so busy in RL and can't do it, but you already know that she would side with you.


My friend doesn't play video games, nor spend her time on forums. Shes a very busy woman with an important job. Can you not blame her? And yes she would partly side with me just as much as she would agree to what some of you guys whom i've been aruging over are saying as well. At the she would most likely call Anders a mass murderer because by definition that is exactly what he is by FBI standards.

Had this happen on USA soil Anders would be tried and found guilty of (number of victims) counts of premeditated murder in the first degree. He would most likely be sentenced to death by his crimes.

#1140
Reaverwind

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Br3ad wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

ScarMK wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

If my friend, who happens to be a known forensic criminal profiler, wasn't so busy with RL issues I would've invited her to join into this debate, and essentinally tell you all that Anders was driven by the abuse by the Chantry to commit these henious crimes.


How fortuitous that your friend is so busy in RL and can't do it, but you already know that she would side with you.


I've taken classes on psychology and psychiatry (well, one semester only) but I can safely say that many experts, and the modern media, would agree with Lord Raijin that Anders was driven to his actions by the Chantry and those who abused him in his past, and would place less blame on him than on the chantry.

No, you really can't. 


He's right about the mainstream media - they spew nothing but garbage these days. Heck, I remember some outrageous claims on behalf of certain "poor criminals" which brought down the wrath of their viewership on them.

#1141
Hazegurl

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According to the media everyone but the actual criminal is at fault. It's no wonder we have so many people willing to shoot other people up.

#1142
Lotion Soronarr

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cjones91 wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...
The Dalish are irrelevent. They're a nomadic culture. And their little magocracy isn't working out so great. 

The fact they are still around proves otherwise.


Clinging to bare survival is hardly a mark of great sucess.

They are a nomadic people in a world filled with large, powerfull, old kingdoms of humans.
EVeryone once of a while - either due to a crazy Keeper or and abomination - they loose one of their clans, and with it many of the People and the old knowledge. They are hardly a model of sucess, nor are there any indications of a bright future for them.

#1143
Lotion Soronarr

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Lord Raijin wrote...
The moment that you started bashing Anders.


Bashing Anders = denying crimes?
What kind of a logic is that?



How is it making stuffs up about Elthina? She gave false hope to mages, and Meredith knows about it too. It was only time before something like what Anders did happen. Like I said before mages had tried to assassinated the Grand Cleric, but failed.  Elthina may not be a slaver, but shes very much like a prison warden. Not much different than a slaver.


Elthina was attempting reason and diplomacy. That hardly makes here a bad person.


I see it as a statement that "We will no longer bow down to the Chantry" unfortunetly innocent people will be among the casualties, but that is just the way of life during war.


I see it as a statement that "We will no longer bow down to the mages"
unfortunetly innocent mages will be among the casualties, but that is
just the way of life during war.


Oh and I do not view priests and priestess of the Chantry to be "innocent" they're the problem, not the solution.


Then I do not view mages as innocent either.
Isn't this lovely?

#1144
HiroVoid

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Did Raijin just say a person who has a job as a prison warden isn't that different from a slaver? :blink:

Also, attacking a place of worship of the majority of Thedas's religion isn't exactly a great way to show the normal population that mages aren't dangerous.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 28 octobre 2013 - 07:14 .


#1145
Lotion Soronarr

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Hazegurl wrote...

According to the media everyone but the actual criminal is at fault. It's no wonder we have so many people willing to shoot other people up.


If anything, the Templars have been too lenient towards Anders.
He escaped 7 times.
SEVEN TIMES.
Instead of proving he can be trusted and thus earning the privilidge to go outside, like many trusted mages, he goes the rebel route.

#1146
LOLandStuff

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I too have an imagina...I mean someone I know who's a top psychiatrist in my country and is pretty known through out the world. And of course he'd be siding with me because why the heck no? Too bad he's a very busy person with a job at the mental institution or he'd be here telling you guys Anders is insane and his actions can't be justified.

#1147
Jedi Master of Orion

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Xilizhra wrote...

Yeah, but no.

I'm sorry, but I'm the correct one.

She is also rather old. I wouldn't be surprised if she was Zathrien's previous First, but he had to exchange her for a newer model. So to speak. Obviously no other clan is going to want her either, since she is by now far too old to be a First, and a clan rarely need a new Keeper that they don't have a FIrst themselves to repalce. So it makes sense for Zathrien's clan to have more mages than the usual two.

This seems like an extremely convoluted way of denying that the Dalish have anything good.


I might agree with you about the Dalish in general here, but I'm pretty sure Anerin says he left the clan because isn't truly one of the Dalish.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 28 octobre 2013 - 09:37 .


#1148
EmperorSahlertz

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He does.

#1149
Guest_Morocco Mole_*

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Lord Raijin wrote...

You've never answered to my question. Where are you getting your source of information from? I would like to compare my source to yours.


I have a minor interest in Psychology. I don't study it myself. But I do enjoy reading about disorders such as pyschopathy since I find it interesting

The moment that you started bashing Anders.


Criticize =! bashing. I dislike Anders, quite a bit to be honest. But I have done nothing but criticize him for his actions and his personality, and I can pull all of my criticism from the games so it isn't just 'bashing'. But I have never once said that the chantry and templar were in the right (and have even criticized some of their actions in this very thread)

The only person denying anything is you. Generally when it comes down to mages and Anders.

How is it making stuffs up about Elthina? She gave false hope to mages, and Meredith knows about it too. It was only time before something like what Anders did happen. Like I said before mages had tried to assassinated the Grand Cleric, but failed.  Elthina may not be a slaver, but shes very much like a prison warden. Not much different than a slaver.


Elthina failed to deal with the situation properly (by compromising instead of removing Meredith from power or whatever) but this again doesn't make her an awful person.

And prison wardens are... well. They aren't like slavers at all. So here we are again with you throwing out really dumb and silly comparisons that don't hold up.

I see it as a statement that "We will no longer bow down to the Chantry" unfortunetly innocent people will be among the casualties, but that is just the way of life during war. The fact is the Chantry all brought this upon themselves for imprisoning innocent mages. Yes Mages are dangerous, but that doesn't mean that you need to lock all of them up. Allow them to prove themselves worthy for society, and then let them be of good use for the community.  You know... let them use their magic to serve man, like the Maker wants man to.


...So we try to prove mages are good by... blowing up buildings full of innocent people?

Oh and I do not view priests and priestess of the Chantry to be "innocent" they're the problem, not the solution.


By your own logic people are free to murder Catholic priests and Muslim imams because members of those religions have harmed people in the past. I loathe to make real world comparisons. But this is seriously the point you are making.

Modifié par Morocco Mole, 28 octobre 2013 - 12:09 .


#1150
Xilizhra

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I might agree with you about the Dalish in general here, but I'm pretty sure Anerin says he left the clan because isn't truly one of the Dalish.

Do you have a video? Because I just played that and heard nothing like it.

By your own logic people are free to murder Catholic priests and Muslim
imams because members of those religions have harmed people in the past.
I loathe to make real world comparisons. But this is seriously the
point you are making.

Have harmed people in the past? Or are currently in the process of doing harm? One can make the argument that Elthina was doing the latter.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 28 octobre 2013 - 12:10 .