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[LOLandStuff]

Some priests and priestesses might be nasty people, others might have joined the Chantry because they genuinely want to help people or want to become scholars, the second group don't deserve to die or not considered "innocents" just because they're part of the Chantry.
Some are so quick to QQ about mages and completely ignore maleficarums and apostates yet immediately blame the whole Chantry lot and templars because...Chantry. And nooo, they can't have decent people.

[Xilizhra]

LOLandStuff wrote...

Some priests and priestesses might be nasty people, others might have joined the Chantry because they genuinely want to help people or want to become scholars, the second group don't deserve to die or not considered "innocents" just because they're part of the Chantry.
Some are so quick to QQ about mages and completely ignore maleficarums and apostates yet immediately blame the whole Chantry lot and templars because...Chantry. And nooo, they can't have decent people.

It's not impossible for templars to be decent people, though we've only seen a few who are provably decent, ones who refused to go along with the Order's excesses. Those such as Thrask, Keran and Evangeline.

[dragonflight288]

Steelcan wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

ScarMK wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

If my friend, who happens to be a known forensic criminal profiler, wasn't so busy with RL issues I would've invited her to join into this debate, and essentinally tell you all that Anders was driven by the abuse by the Chantry to commit these henious crimes.

How fortuitous that your friend is so busy in RL and can't do it, but you already know that she would side with you.

I've taken classes on psychology and psychiatry (well, one semester only) but I can safely say that many experts, and the modern media, would agree with Lord Raijin that Anders was driven to his actions by the Chantry and those who abused him in his past, and would place less blame on him than on the chantry.

Just because there is a cause doesn't mean you don't treat the symptoms as well

Did I say otherwise? It still is better to treat the root cause of the problem though.

[Nohvarr]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...


[quote]By your own logic people are free to murder Catholic priests and Muslim
imams because members of those religions have harmed people in the past.
I loathe to make real world comparisons. But this is seriously the
point you are making.[/quote]
Have harmed people in the past? Or are currently in the process of doing harm? One can make the argument that Elthina was doing the latter.
[/quote]

Let's take a look at Elthina and what she was doing. And this is all from the wiki.



[quote]“The Chantry is not a domineering father with the whip always in hand. She is a gentle mother, who knows that her children learn best when allowed to learn themselves.” - Elthina[/quote]



[quote]After Sebastian was forced into the Chantry, Elthina helped him escape in the dead of night, telling him that people should enter the Chantry through the front door, not the back. She gave him a purse full of gold and told him to go and live his life. Thanks to her words, Sebastian returned to the Chantry - through the front door this time - with his faith restored. [/quote]

[quote]Hawke can show Ser Alrik's letter to Elthina after investigating his "Tranquil solution". Elthina says that Ser Alrik made a suggestion, but they turned him down. She insists that the Rite of Tranquility is a last resort.
......
Hawke can inform Elthina that a templar used her seal to make a member of the guard ignore the Qunari delegates being abducted. Elthina replies that she hoped this would not go so far and that she will step in when it's time. [/quote]



[quote]Hawke tells Elthina that Petrice is behind the murder. Elthina replies that Petrice has erred in her judgment and that a court will decide her fate. Then she turns away and walks up the stairs. Seconds later a Qunari assassin kills Petrice with an arrow. Elthina looks back only to tell Hawke to send for the Viscount. [/quote]



[quote]In Hightown, Orsino is trying to convince the nobles that Meredith uses the fear of mages to take control of Kirkwall. Meredith accuses him of inciting a rebellion. Then Elthina arrives and asks the templars to "show the First Enchanter back to the Circle," adding an injunction for them to treat him "gently," and Meredith to "go back to the Gallows and calm down, like a good girl." If the Champion asks Elthina why she does nothing when she is in charge of the templars and the Circle, Elthina retorts that Hawke has "quite the estimation of [her] abilities."[/quote]



[quote]In the Chantry, Hawke witnesses Sebastian asking what is Elthina's stance on the issue of the mages and the templars. Elthina states that she favors peace and if the Maker is merciful, he will help them find it. She confesses that she did not expect things to deteriorate so fast.[/quote]



[quote]Elthina tells that she has been talking with both Orsino and Meredith and that Orsino "is not an unreasonable man;" she feels, therefore, that a compromise can be reached.[/quote]



[quote]Hawke comes to Elthina to discuss the mages and the templars. Elthina claims that she cannot take sides and that she is seeking to balance the needs of everyone. [/quote]



[quote]If Meredith is the one to ask Hawke to investigate the matter of Thrask's conspiracy, she explains to the Champion that she needs hard evidence of Orsino's direct involvement to bring before Elthina, because Orsino has persuaded the Grand Cleric that Meredith "is being unreasonable." [/quote]

So, her actions in game align with her quote, she may have been too passive, but there are no indications she was harming people, or even the cause of harm to mages. In fact if Orsino was getting her to see that Meredith was being unreasonable to the point that she was blocking Meredith from using ROA then I'd argue she was protecting mages from over zealous Templars. And for this Anders killed her, that's not hyperbole, he states that killing her removes the chance of compromises which is Elthina's goal. Instead of the peaceful solution that all sides can agree upon Anders sparks a war which will only ensure everyone loses. If the mages lose the restrictions on them will be worse than ever. If the Templars lose then the mages will likely go on to become the oppressors, which has happened in our own history too often. If you need a gaming exampleof the oppressed becoming the oppressors look no further than Bioshock Infinite.

TV Tropes effectively puts my concerns about a Mage victory in this war to words.

[quote]Finally, La Résistance has won, the revolution has occurred and the tyrannous President Evil has been deposed. This should be the end of The Empire, the establishment of a new era of freedom, peace, prosperity and equality.

Well, as soon as Les Collaborateurs have been judged, condemned and executed, of course. And we need to take care of all the enemies and reactionaries within us who still wish to undermine the new regime. And I'm afraid those people who fought for the revolution along with me have just been revealed to be traitors as well! I have no choice, I have to seize more powers to deal with all the dangers which threaten our ideals, create a special force charged to investigate those who would betray the revolution and an extraordinary jury to condemn them quickly.

It's all for the sake of our freedom so direly gained, of course. [/quote]

For my playthrough of DA:I I'm willing to encourage peace between Templars and Mages....but if a peaceful resolution is impossible, then I'm afraid neither side can be allowed to win.

Modifié par Nohvarr, 28 octobre 2013 - 12:50 .

[LOLandStuff]

Xilizhra wrote...
It's not impossible for templars to be decent people, though we've only seen a few who are provably decent, ones who refused to go along with the Order's excesses. Those such as Thrask, Keran and Evangeline.

Lord Raijin wrote...
Oh and I do not view priests and priestess of the Chantry to be "innocent" they're the problem, not the solution.

[LOLandStuff]

Elthina's only mistake is that she sat on her ass hoping problems would solve themselves. But she didn't deserve to die because of a maniac.

Modifié par LOLandStuff, 28 octobre 2013 - 12:53 .

[Xilizhra]

So, her actions in game align with her quote, she may have been too passive, but there are no indications she was harming people, or even the cause of harm to mages. In fact if Orsino was getting her to see that Meredith was being unreasonable to the point that she was blocking Meredith from using ROA then I'd argue she was protecting mages from over zealous Templars. And for this Anders killed her, that's not hyperbole, he states that killing her removes the chance of compromises which is Elthina's goal. Instead of the peaceful solution that all sides can agree upon Anders sparks a war which will only ensure everyone loses. If the mages lose the restrictions on them will be worse than ever. If the Templars lose then the mages will likely go on to become the oppressors, which has happened in our own history too often. If you need a gaming exampleof the oppressed becoming the oppressors look no further than Bioshock Infinite.

A position of compromise means that templar oppression continues forever at its current level, which is still terrible. This is what Anders meant with the second half of his phrase you didn't mention: "I removed the chance of compromise, because there is no compromise!" Any compromise would be a false one leaving the templars in power.

Elthina's only mistake is that she sat on her ass hoping problems would solve themselves. But she didn't deserve to die because of a maniac.

No one deserves to die.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

By your own logic people are free to murder Catholic priests and Muslim
imams because members of those religions have harmed people in the past.
I loathe to make real world comparisons. But this is seriously the
point you are making.

Have harmed people in the past? Or are currently in the process of doing harm? One can make the argument that Elthina was doing the latter.

Some would argue that priests and imams are hurting people right now. How dare you just sit there idly by your computer. Go blow up some mosques and churches. If you don't you are just as bad as the oppressors!

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

By your own logic people are free to murder Catholic priests and Muslim
imams because members of those religions have harmed people in the past.
I loathe to make real world comparisons. But this is seriously the
point you are making.

Have harmed people in the past? Or are currently in the process of doing harm? One can make the argument that Elthina was doing the latter.

Some would argue that priests and imams are hurting people right now. How dare you just sit there idly by your computer. Go blow up some mosques and churches. If you don't you are just as bad as the oppressors!

Depends on the priest/imam. There's surely no shortage of the latter involved in numerous hostile actions in various parts of the world (most famously the Middle East, of course), and I think we all know about the harmful actions priests have gotten up to in recent years. It doesn't apply to all of them, of course, but you can hardly issue a claim to innocence just  because you're a religious leader.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well... What are you waiting for, go blow up some damn buildings!

[TheKomandorShepard]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well... What are you waiting for, go blow up some damn buildings!

comon friend he is waiting for his c4 you know how slow now couriers are.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 28 octobre 2013 - 01:20 .

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well... What are you waiting for, go blow up some damn buildings!

Ooh, is that an incitement to do violence?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well... What are you waiting for, go blow up some damn buildings!

Ooh, is that an incitement to do violence?

Yes. Unlike you, who try to somehow establish moral superiority without ever leaving the comfort of your home, I actually do what I preach. Luckily I am not enough of a degenerate to ever actually try and defend terror bombings and killings of innocents. Again, unlike you.

[LOLandStuff]

EmperorSahlertz, be ready to take the blame. It's how it works around here.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well... What are you waiting for, go blow up some damn buildings!

Ooh, is that an incitement to do violence?

Yes. Unlike you, who try to somehow establish moral superiority without ever leaving the comfort of your home, I actually do what I preach. Luckily I am not enough of a degenerate to ever actually try and defend terror bombings and killings of innocents. Again, unlike you.

What, explode people? And why do you think you know what I do IRL?

And I never said I condoned Anders' action, just that I won't kill him for it. Of course, if you participated in the Annulment, that easily qualifies as the second one of what you said you'd never try to defend, so.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 28 octobre 2013 - 01:33 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...
A position of compromise means that templar oppression continues forever
at its current level, which is still terrible. This is what Anders
meant with the second half of his phrase you didn't mention: "I removed
the chance of compromise, because there is no compromise!" Any compromise would be a false one leaving the templars in power.

No it doesn't.
And that kind of thinking is exactly the problem.
My way or no way.
Templars have to have power over mages - otherwise policing doesn't work. But instead of reforms to tweak the system, you prefer violent revolution.

[Xilizhra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
A position of compromise means that templar oppression continues forever
at its current level, which is still terrible. This is what Anders
meant with the second half of his phrase you didn't mention: "I removed
the chance of compromise, because there is no compromise!" Any compromise would be a false one leaving the templars in power.

No it doesn't.
And that kind of thinking is exactly the problem.
My way or no way.
Templars have to have power over mages - otherwise policing doesn't work. But instead of reforms to tweak the system, you prefer violent revolution.

Actually, I prefer peaceful secession, which the Chantry permitted. Then the templars attacked of their own accord. This war is simply self-defense.

[Medhia Nox]

Xilizhra: Sorry - while I haven't read Asunder yet - the "peaceful secession" comes off far more as bullying when it's piggy backed to Ander's terrorist attack.

I'm in total disagreement with you that this was at all peaceful.

More like - the Chantry was terrified.

As I do not believe that the books are canon (especially if they ever mention in game things like Alistair being king) - I will have to wait for Inquisition to determine the true root of the mage rebellion.

Though - in the meantime, I'll have to pick up Asunder to determine my view of things for myself as far as the books go.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 28 octobre 2013 - 02:05 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...
Actually, I prefer peaceful secession, which the Chantry permitted. Then the templars attacked of their own accord. This war is simply self-defense.

The Chantry didn't permit anything.
The Mages seceeded (after a forced vote basicly), then the Templars seceeded.
The Chantry just stood there looking dumbfounded.

[Xilizhra]

Xilizhra: Sorry - while I haven't read Asunder yet - the "peaceful secession" comes off far more as bullying when it's piggy backed to Ander's terrorist attack.

They were a year apart and not directly linked. It was the later Annulment of a Circle in Rivain that was the real last straw, in addition to the breakdown into violence at the White Spire in Orlais, when we had, again, one provocateur mage and a hugely overreacting Order (although the one in the role of Cullen actually saw sense and defected to the moderate protagonists' side).

I'm in total disagreement with you that this was at all peaceful.

Given that Anders didn't belong to the Circle when he attacked, I don't really see how you can blame them for his action setting any kind of tone.

The Chantry didn't permit anything.
The Mages seceeded (after a forced vote basicly), then the Templars seceeded.
The Chantry just stood there looking dumbfounded.

A vote is a vote, and the Chantry didn't declare war or anything of the sort on the mages, nor have any kind of reaction, it seems. Which is de facto permission, or at least acceptance.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 28 octobre 2013 - 02:14 .

[Lord Raijin]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Bashing Anders = denying crimes?
What kind of a logic is that?

Lets just deny all of the crimes that the Chantry has done over the past thousands of years against the mages. Lets deny the hate and fears that they (those poor innocent preists and priestess) and preach to the gullible people.

Elthina was attempting reason and diplomacy. That hardly makes here a bad person.

LOL how did she manage to do that? I saw no such thing. All she did was treat Meredith and Orsino like infants who needed to go into their rooms. She did nothing to calm the situation down The issue escalated over the years, and she did nothing.

I see it as a statement that "We will no longer bow down to the mages"
unfortunetly innocent mages will be among the casualties, but that is
just the way of life during war.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Then I do not view mages as innocent either.
Isn't this lovely?

What crime has the Mages done that makes them not "innocent"? The fact that their tired of being a prisoner of the Chantry. They're willing to fight for for their freedom. Let me ask you this. If you were in their postion would you do the same? Or would you contuine to allow the Chantry to run every speck of your life? Say if you were a circle mage and got into a serious romantic relationship with another mage, and you got her pregnate. The templars found out about it, and right after your girlfriend delivers your son/daughter they quickly take your son/daughter away and sends him/her off to the Chantry to be raised... would you standby this kind of mental abuse?

[Lord Raijin]

HiroVoid wrote...

Did Raijin just say a person who has a job as a prison warden isn't that different from a slaver?

Also, attacking a place of worship of the majority of Thedas's religion isn't exactly a great way to show the normal population that mages aren't dangerous.

Guantánamo Bay Cuba = Chantry run Circle, where both stores people who haven't been convicted of a crime that they supposedly had been accused of doing.

So yeah when Grand Clerics allow this to go on in her region she becomes a prison warden. No different than a Slaver.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: You may believe that a year is enough time to distance yourself from an event - but I don't think that would be natural storytelling at all.

Anders was the original "rebel" mage - just because there's a little bit of backtracking in this book, doesn't retcon what Anders did to Kirkwall.

I don't think the common people saying anything other than: "A mage blew up the Kirkwall Chantry." followed by "The mages have rebelled." would make any sense. Pre-Industrial nations don't have information centers for the common man that travel so quickly and so reliably.

Where you see a peaceful secession - I believe there was a hand forced by fear, and Templars that refused to be cowed into submission.

Or, more reasonably - there is a middle ground the mage/templar mess where everyone was wrong - even if everyone had the right intentions.

[Xilizhra]

I don't think the common people saying anything other than: "A mage blew up the Kirkwall Chantry." followed by "The mages have rebelled." would make any sense. Pre-Industrial nations don't have information centers for the common man that travel so quickly and so reliably.

Information coming out of Kirkwall was so scrambled that even a Seeker of Truth had to interrogate Varric to figure out what actually happened and who was to blame for the incident in Kirkwall. Varric mentioned something at the end, too, about the cloud of numerous rumors flying out of the place. No one knows what really happened in Kirkwall outside of its own participants.

@Xilizhra: You may believe that a year is enough time to distance yourself from an event - but I don't think that would be natural storytelling at all.

No one fears that the Circle mages would copy Anders in Asunder; there's talk of secession and worrying about that, of course, but not bombings. No new worries were added to the list of the templars.

Where you see a peaceful secession - I believe there was a hand forced by fear, and Templars that refused to be cowed into submission.

Or, more reasonably - there is a middle ground the mage/templar mess where everyone was wrong - even if everyone had the right intentions.

The mages had no other realistic option by the end of the book.