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[dragonflight288]

Where you see a peaceful secession - I believe there was a hand forced by fear, and Templars that refused to be cowed into submission.

Or, more reasonably - there is a middle ground the mage/templar mess where everyone was wrong - even if everyone had the right intentions.

The mages had no other realistic option by the end of the book.

Lambert did kind of force the issue by launching the attack before a single vote passed, and then held all the surviving mages prisoners and it's heavily implied he was going to kill or tranquilize all of them regardless of which way they were going to vote because they had the audacity to talk about it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: You may believe that a year is enough time to distance yourself from an event - but I don't think that would be natural storytelling at all.

Anders was the original "rebel" mage - just because there's a little bit of backtracking in this book, doesn't retcon what Anders did to Kirkwall.

I don't think the common people saying anything other than: "A mage blew up the Kirkwall Chantry." followed by "The mages have rebelled." would make any sense. Pre-Industrial nations don't have information centers for the common man that travel so quickly and so reliably.

Where you see a peaceful secession - I believe there was a hand forced by fear, and Templars that refused to be cowed into submission.

Or, more reasonably - there is a middle ground the mage/templar mess where everyone was wrong - even if everyone had the right intentions.

Actually Xil isjust trying to spin the events of Asunder, to sound like the mages were the good guys. Granted the story tries its best at doing this, but it fails utterly. Basically Fiona hijacked the entire meeting which the Divine had allowed, it was originally suppsoed to be about what the mages would like changed in the Circles (or something akin to that). Instead Fiona hijacks the meeting and immediately try to cast a vote regarding openly rebelling against the Chantry. Needless to say the Templars move in and shut down the meeting. The rest of the book is more  or less a long story of the Templars being unusually lenient with rebellious subjects, and only once an accidental death escalate to open combat, does **** really hits the fan.
But yea "peaceful secession allowed by the Chantry".......

[Dave of Canada]

Lambert is the hero that Thedas needs to fight against Fiona.

[Reaverwind]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: You may believe that a year is enough time to distance yourself from an event - but I don't think that would be natural storytelling at all.

Anders was the original "rebel" mage - just because there's a little bit of backtracking in this book, doesn't retcon what Anders did to Kirkwall.

I don't think the common people saying anything other than: "A mage blew up the Kirkwall Chantry." followed by "The mages have rebelled." would make any sense. Pre-Industrial nations don't have information centers for the common man that travel so quickly and so reliably.

Where you see a peaceful secession - I believe there was a hand forced by fear, and Templars that refused to be cowed into submission.

Or, more reasonably - there is a middle ground the mage/templar mess where everyone was wrong - even if everyone had the right intentions.

Actually Xil isjust trying to spin the events of Asunder, to sound like the mages were the good guys. Granted the story tries its best at doing this, but it fails utterly. Basically Fiona hijacked the entire meeting which the Divine had allowed, it was originally suppsoed to be about what the mages would like changed in the Circles (or something akin to that). Instead Fiona hijacks the meeting and immediately try to cast a vote regarding openly rebelling against the Chantry. Needless to say the Templars move in and shut down the meeting. The rest of the book is more  or less a long story of the Templars being unusually lenient with rebellious subjects, and only once an accidental death escalate to open combat, does **** really hits the fan.
But yea "peaceful secession allowed by the Chantry".......

You forgot to mention the murder and subsequent framing of one enchanter by another to get the vote to go Fiona's way.

[Dave of Canada]

And when Lambert went to arrest Rhys after seeing the evidence, everyone else freaked out seeing it as oppressive Templar oppressing innocent mages and fought against them.

The only logical decision from the Chantry to resolve the situation? Send the Divine's agents to kill Templar.

And then Fiona starts the war because the Divine is a big meanie.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 28 octobre 2013 - 02:45 .

[Dave of Canada]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Mages in the wrong? Surely you jest

I want reasonable mages like DA:O's Wynne and Finn back.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Yeah... Templars certainly don't have an easy job, when even the Divine herself is as incompetent as she is...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lord Raijin wrote...
Lets just deny all of the crimes that the Chantry has done over the past thousands of years against the mages. Lets deny the hate and fears that they (those poor innocent preists and priestess) and preach to the gullible people.

Who's denying anything?
Anders was just a moron who decided to be a rebel instead of play by the rules.

And those priest and priestests preach the TRUTH. Mages are dangerous. Period. That is not debatable.

LOL how did she manage to do that? I saw no such thing. All she did was treat Meredith and Orsino like infants who needed to go into their rooms. She did nothing to calm the situation down The issue escalated over the years, and she did nothing.

Trying to calm them down and get them to compromise is doing nothing?

And Anders kills her just as she was finally getting convinced Meredith was going bonkers. Kirkwall could have had a  new Knight-Commander. A new chance for the mages.
Instead, death.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Well, now you know how I feel reading your posts.

Then I do not view mages as innocent either.
Isn't this lovely?

What crime has the Mages done that makes them not "innocent"? The fact that their tired of being a prisoner of the Chantry. They're willing to fight for for their freedom. Let me ask you this. If you were in their postion would you do the same? Or would you contuine to allow the Chantry to run every speck of your life? Say if you were a circle mage and got into a serious romantic relationship with another mage, and you got her pregnate. The templars found out about it, and right after your girlfriend delivers your son/daughter they quickly take your son/daughter away and sends him/her off to the Chantry to be raised... would you standby this kind of mental abuse?

What crimes have the priests done? Other than your imaginary crimes of spreading hate? Being part of the Chantry? Well then, lets shoot every soldeir in the enemy army once we win, even those that did nothing the entire war other than playing cards. But hey, why stop at hte priests? Clearly everyone that is Andrastian and give Chantry tithe, is supporting the Circles and the slavery trough this very act. He is paying for the templars. Thus, anyone is a "legitimate" target.

Mages are "guilty" of being mages. Thay are guilty of being a threat.
Thus they are not "innocent". It is irrelveant if that is within their power to control or not. It is irrelevant if they want it or not. Them hoping of believing really really hard doesn't change a damn thing.

Mental abuse? Suuuure.

[Sebby]

Supporting the Templars is simply logical as DA2 showed the depths of mage treachery where Orsino still turns into a murderous harvester even if Hawke sides with him(as if him being the enabler of his mother's killer wasn't enough).

Modifié par Seboist, 28 octobre 2013 - 02:52 .

[Dave of Canada]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Yeah... Templars certainly don't have an easy job, when even the Divine herself is as incompetent as she is...

I hope we can overthrow the Divine executed in a pro-Templar route.

Maybe we'll finally be able to kill Leliana as she tries to defend her.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Where's the option to lead a dwarf army to conquer the surface? I sick of these other options.

[Sebby]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Mages in the wrong? Surely you jest

I want reasonable mages like DA:O's Wynne and Finn back.

Wynne wasn't too reasonable due my having to put her down like Old Yeller.

[Dave of Canada]

Seboist wrote...

Wynne wasn't too reasonable due my having to put her down like Old Yeller.

That's what's reasonable about it, you don't sit around until the game tells you it's okay to kill them off.

[Reaverwind]

Dave of Canada wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Yeah... Templars certainly don't have an easy job, when even the Divine herself is as incompetent as she is...

I hope we can overthrow the Divine executed in a pro-Templar route.

Maybe we'll finally be able to kill Leliana as she tries to defend her.

Will killing zombie-Evangeline be part of that package?

[Dave of Canada]

Reaverwind wrote...

Will killing zombie-Evangeline be part of that package?

Of course, she'll die as we purge Rhys and Fiona's rebellion.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 28 octobre 2013 - 03:08 .

[Lord Raijin]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I have a minor interest in Psychology. I don't study it myself. But I do enjoy reading about disorders such as pyschopathy since I find it interesting

I'm very compassive when it comes to studying Psychology, especially when I was falsely been diagnosed of having a mental health disorder by incompetent doctors over the years. Had they done a simple blood test they would of found out that I had a legit physical condition that was gentically given to me.

I also have an interests in studying high profiled criminals like John Wayne Gacy.

Criticize =! bashing. I dislike Anders, quite a bit to be honest. But I have done nothing but criticize him for his actions and his personality, and I can pull all of my criticism from the games so it isn't just 'bashing'. But I have never once said that the chantry and templar were in the right (and have even criticized some of their actions in this very thread)

The only person denying anything is you. Generally when it comes down to mages and Anders.

I suppose that is in your right to dislike Anders as much as you want, but that still doesn't make it fair. His actions and his personality were all created and encouraged by the Chantry. Had the Chantry not influenced with his life do you think he would be the same man as he was? Most likley not.

I'm not in denial. I happen to think it's noble of someone who shows great courage to stand up for what is right; to tell their authorities (The Chantry) that they will no longer obey by their rules, and will fight for it.

...So we try to prove mages are good by... blowing up buildings full of innocent people?

The Chantry was NOT full of innocent people at the time. Anders blew it up a night to avoid innocent people from getting killed. The fact that the Chantry is always closed during night times only proves that people could not possibly be inside.

By your own logic people are free to murder Catholic priests and Muslim imams because members of those religions have harmed people in the past. I loathe to make real world comparisons. But this is seriously the point you are making.

By your logic Catholic priests are free to rape their boys without facing the consquences, and if the boys try to standup for what is right and take drastic action to avoid another boy from getting rape... They're are considered as a terrorists, and are deemed bad and thus deserve to be hated on.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: You may believe that a year is enough time to distance yourself from an event - but I don't think that would be natural storytelling at all.

Anders was the original "rebel" mage - just because there's a little bit of backtracking in this book, doesn't retcon what Anders did to Kirkwall.

I don't think the common people saying anything other than: "A mage blew up the Kirkwall Chantry." followed by "The mages have rebelled." would make any sense. Pre-Industrial nations don't have information centers for the common man that travel so quickly and so reliably.

Where you see a peaceful secession - I believe there was a hand forced by fear, and Templars that refused to be cowed into submission.

Or, more reasonably - there is a middle ground the mage/templar mess where everyone was wrong - even if everyone had the right intentions.

Actually Xil isjust trying to spin the events of Asunder, to sound like the mages were the good guys. Granted the story tries its best at doing this, but it fails utterly. Basically Fiona hijacked the entire meeting which the Divine had allowed, it was originally suppsoed to be about what the mages would like changed in the Circles (or something akin to that). Instead Fiona hijacks the meeting and immediately try to cast a vote regarding openly rebelling against the Chantry. Needless to say the Templars move in and shut down the meeting. The rest of the book is more  or less a long story of the Templars being unusually lenient with rebellious subjects, and only once an accidental death escalate to open combat, does **** really hits the fan.
But yea "peaceful secession allowed by the Chantry".......

Right, because the templars trying to Tranquilize/kill the entire council of enchanters based on a metting was wholly reasonable. The entire book is one long series of events showing why secession was vital and inevitable.

[Sebby]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Wynne wasn't too reasonable due my having to put her down like Old Yeller.

That's what's reasonable about it, you don't sit around until the game tells you it's okay to kill them off.

Point taken.

I was eager to have Hawke play "dog catcher" and round up the mage vermin after seeing how low they'd go with what they did against his mother.

[Star fury]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I want reasonable mages like DA:O's Wynne and Finn back.

Mere fools clouded by chantry propaganda

Also one tried to get between me and my waifu. Unforgiveable

LMAO.

[AresKeith]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Mages in the wrong? Surely you jest

I want reasonable mages like DA:O's Wynne and Finn back.

The sad part is that Rhys was starting to follow Wynne's view until Adrian framed him

[Reaverwind]

Seboist wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Wynne wasn't too reasonable due my having to put her down like Old Yeller.

That's what's reasonable about it, you don't sit around until the game tells you it's okay to kill them off.

Point taken.

I was eager to have Hawke play "dog catcher" and round up the mage vermin after seeing how low they'd go with what they did against his mother.

Hehe - since Hawke couldn't be allowed to do the sensible thing and get out of Kirkwall, I thought he ought to join the pest control team.

[Lord Raijin]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Who's denying anything?
Anders was just a moron who decided to be a rebel instead of play by the rules.

What rules? The Chantries rules? The rules that clearly incidates the incareration of all mages in Thedas and throw them all in the Circle where they must stay until they perish this world? Don't you think mages should have their freedom once they've passed the Harrowing?

And those priest and priestests preach the TRUTH. Mages are dangerous. Period. That is not debatable.

In the past Templars have been proven just as dangerous if not more. Shall we throw them all in some prison made circle run by Seekers as well?

Knight-Commander Martel not only confess to Cassandra to being a co-conspirator of a blood mage in the Chantry ranks, but he also murdered a high ranked Seeker to prevent him from alerting the Divine about his treachery.

Martel later visited Cassandra and Regalyan in the dungeon, revealing the conspiracy's grand plan: Frenic would use the elven mage, Avexis, to command high dragons to assassinate the Divine and other Grand Clerics at the Ten year gathering. And from the ashes, Martel would lead the Chantry into a new age where the Templars rule supreme.

You don't need a red lyrium idol to be crazy, and be flat out power hungry.

Trying to calm them down and get them to compromise is doing nothing?

And Anders kills her just as she was finally getting convinced Meredith was going bonkers. Kirkwall could have had a  new Knight-Commander. A new chance for the mages.
Instead, death.

Didn't seem to work as the tension prgressively turned for the worst. All that could've been avoided had she done something about it rather than to treat Orsino and Meredith like a bunch of spoiled babies.

What crime has the Mages done that makes them not "innocent"? The fact that their tired of being a prisoner of the Chantry. They're willing to fight for for their freedom. Let me ask you this. If you were in their postion would you do the same? Or would you contuine to allow the Chantry to run every speck of your life? Say if you were a circle mage and got into a serious romantic relationship with another mage, and you got her pregnate. The templars found out about it, and right after your girlfriend delivers your son/daughter they quickly take your son/daughter away and sends him/her off to the Chantry to be raised... would you standby this kind of mental abuse?

What crimes have the priests done? Other than your imaginary crimes of spreading hate? Being part of the Chantry? Well then, lets shoot every soldeir in the enemy army once we win, even those that did nothing the entire war other than playing cards. But hey, why stop at hte priests? Clearly everyone that is Andrastian and give Chantry tithe, is supporting the Circles and the slavery trough this very act. He is paying for the templars. Thus, anyone is a "legitimate" target.

You've completly avoided answering to my questions. Why is that?

Mages are "guilty" of being mages. Thay are guilty of being a threat.
Thus they are not "innocent". It is irrelveant if that is within their power to control or not. It is irrelevant if they want it or not. Them hoping of believing really really hard doesn't change a damn thing.

Oh right. By your ridiculous logic If you were born as a woman in an Arab parts of the world... Women  guilty for being women and therefour deserve to be treated like cattle, and not as human beings.  Like I said before Non-mages has been proven by history that they can be just as dangerous if not more.