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[EmperorSahlertz]

AresKeith wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Mages in the wrong? Surely you jest

I want reasonable mages like DA:O's Wynne and Finn back.

The sad part is that Rhys was starting to follow Wynne's view until Adrian framed him

Which doesn't make sense at all... But hey... Deus Ex Machina is alive and well in the 21st century..

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...
Right, because the templars trying to Tranquilize/kill the entire council of enchanters based on a metting was wholly reasonable. The entire book is one long series of events showing why secession was vital and inevitable.

The entire book was a perfect example of when you give mages a finger, they will take your entire damn arm. The Chantry and Templars were fully willing to let the mages convene and ash out a new Circle where things would be different. Yet they decide to spit in the face of the peace offering and go for war. Fiona, Adrian, Rhys and Evangeline all have to be put down and their meagre rebellion crushed.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Right, because the templars trying to Tranquilize/kill the entire council of enchanters based on a metting was wholly reasonable. The entire book is one long series of events showing why secession was vital and inevitable.

The entire book was a perfect example of when you give mages a finger, they will take your entire damn arm. The Chantry and Templars were fully willing to let the mages convene and ash out a new Circle where things would be different. Yet they decide to spit in the face of the peace offering and go for war. Fiona, Adrian, Rhys and Evangeline all have to be put down and their meagre rebellion crushed.

The templars fought the Chantry the entire way and Justinia was still unable to go far enough, and the mages never declared war; the Chantry let them go. The templars then attacked.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The mages knew fully well what would happen. Either tehy are incompetent and shouldn't live freely, or else they knew. You decide which way you want to see it. But trying to claim innocence... Well.. That is just dishonest.. Whcih shouldn't be a surprise comming from you...

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The mages knew fully well what would happen. Either tehy are incompetent and shouldn't live freely, or else they knew. You decide which way you want to see it. But trying to claim innocence... Well.. That is just dishonest.. Whcih shouldn't be a surprise comming from you...

It's not tantamount to a declaration of war if you're the victim of an aggressor and simply want to leave their sphere of influence. Certainly not one to create equal blame; this is simple victim-blaming.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: And where were these mages going to go?

Tevinter? Honestly - had they said they would go to Tevinter, I would wonder if anyone would stop them.

Personally - were I this Lambert fellow - I would have let them go. I would have seized the Circles, and all the works within... as well as all possessions provided to mages from the Chantry.

Then I would have left the Chantry as an organization - and hired myself out to the nations of Thedas to deal with the newly homeless mages.

Let them go be equal. I'm sure they'll enjoy farming.

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra: And where were these mages going to go?

Probably Fiona would have been more receptive to speaking with Justinia to speak of some kind of long-term solution had the templars not attacked right then. I suppose we'll never know.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: And is it true that Justinia allowed the mages to meet to discuss changes to the Circle and not dissolving the Circle?

[Dave of Canada]

Mages freezing in the harsh winters while starving because of poor harvest is an interesting scenario that I'd love to see.

[dragonflight288]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: And is it true that Justinia allowed the mages to meet to discuss changes to the Circle and not dissolving the Circle?

Justinia's position after Lambert attacked was to help Wynne and Evangeline get those mages out, and then once the mages were free, they voted independence, and the Chantry's official position was to leave the matter be. Had the Templars followed through on that position, there wouldn't be a war.

[Medhia Nox]

@Dave of Canada: The "problem" is that Pro-Mages probably think mages can just solve anything. Entirely unsupported by the game/lore - but it wouldn't change opinion.

@dragonflight288: I'm more interested in what Justinia allowed prior to the Templar attack.

What was her intent - and did the mages abuse that intent?

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dave of Canada: The "problem" is that Pro-Mages probably think mages can just solve anything. Entirely unsupported by the game/lore - but it wouldn't change opinion.

@dragonflight288: I'm more interested in what Justinia allowed prior to the Templar attack.

What was her intent - and did the mages abuse that intent?

It's not made clear. She allowed a vote on making changes to the Circle. The templars burst in claiming that what the mages were discussing was illegal. Justinia never said anything about her feelings regarding the meeting... although she did sponsor an operation to free the arrested mages, which speaks volumes in and of itself.

[Hazegurl]

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dave of Canada: The "problem" is that Pro-Mages probably think mages can just solve anything. Entirely unsupported by the game/lore - but it wouldn't change opinion.

@dragonflight288: I'm more interested in what Justinia allowed prior to the Templar attack.

What was her intent - and did the mages abuse that intent?

It's not made clear. She allowed a vote on making changes to the Circle. The templars burst in claiming that what the mages were discussing was illegal. Justinia never said anything about her feelings regarding the meeting... although she did sponsor an operation to free the arrested mages, which speaks volumes in and of itself.

Weren't they discussing a rebellion?

[Xilizhra]

Hazegurl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dave of Canada: The "problem" is that Pro-Mages probably think mages can just solve anything. Entirely unsupported by the game/lore - but it wouldn't change opinion.

@dragonflight288: I'm more interested in what Justinia allowed prior to the Templar attack.

What was her intent - and did the mages abuse that intent?

It's not made clear. She allowed a vote on making changes to the Circle. The templars burst in claiming that what the mages were discussing was illegal. Justinia never said anything about her feelings regarding the meeting... although she did sponsor an operation to free the arrested mages, which speaks volumes in and of itself.

Weren't they discussing a rebellion?

Secession, not attacking the Chantry.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Still illegal.

[Lord Raijin]

Morocco Mole wrote...

haha no. You cannot blow up a building like that in a city without harming innocent bystanders.

True but then again Anders wouldn't had the motivation to do such a thing like that without the Chantry giving him a reason.If those "innocent" bystanders allowed the Chantry to abuse mages then they are partial responsible, and are exempted from being labled as "innocent". In fact these "innocent" bystanders in Hightown show little to no remorse for the mages, and would prefer them not to speak in public indicates that they're not as innocent as you think they are. The fact to the matter is they've been indoctrinated by the Cantry to believe that they cannot be safe on the streets with mages, and must depend on them for their safety.

I'm starting to think I know what mental disorder you were "misdiagnosed" with. But no, this was not my logic. My logic is, just because an individual harms you. That does not give you the right to indiscriminately murder members of that organization.

It seems to be your logic since you show no compassion for mages who tries fighting for their freedom..Whatever they do they must be doing it because their evil with no true valid motivation other than to cause troubles, and that the saint of the Chantry helds no responsiblity for their actions against the mages that they've abused over the years.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I could at least point to someone who actually has an education on the topic of pyschological disorders before pointing you towards a summary of the standards of psycopathy.

Point away fearless leader. Point me to this person that you know who has a degree in pyschological disorders. I want them to come here and join the debate, but before that I want them to research the history of the Chantry. I want them study Anders behavior and give us a complete non biaspyschological profile of this character.

What difference would it make? The standards I already gave you are non biased. Hence why they are standards, and not evaluations- they don't change based on the person providing them.

If my friend, who happens to be a known forensic criminal profiler, wasn't so busy with RL issues I would've invited her to join into this debate, and essentinally tell you all that Anders was driven by the abuse by the Chantry to commit these henious crimes.

Except it would mean... nothing more than anyone else here, as her specialty is forensics.

Resting on an appeal to authority is already logical fallacy, but it gets really stupid when you appeal to the wrong authority.

Like I said before Anders wasn't born to be monsterous, he was made to be one by the Chantry. If you can't understand this simple logic then I don't know what else I can tell you. I've made it as simple as I can possibly can.

You've also made it wrong. But then, most overly simplified things are.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 28 octobre 2013 - 04:42 .

[dragonflight288]

I'm more interested in what Justinia allowed prior to the Templar attack.

What was her intent - and did the mages abuse that intent?

Oh.

I have no clue. Justinia was being quite secretive. I'm sure some mages (Adrian, *cough*) abused her intent, but it's also quite likely that many mages didn't even know Justinia was on their side in some fashion.

[Dave of Canada]

Fiona was gungho about breaking free because teh chantreh is da evils, Wynne had a lot of pull and could've kept the mages levelheaded until Lambert wanted to arrest her son and she agitated the crowd much to Adrian's delight.

[Sebby]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mages freezing in the harsh winters while starving because of poor harvest is an interesting scenario that I'd love to see.

You and me both.

[Lord Raijin]

Morocco Mole wrote...

haha oh my god i love this argument! it gets progressively more and more crazier with each post

You're doing a great job making it even more crazier with your irrelevant logic

[Reaverwind]

Seboist wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mages freezing in the harsh winters while starving because of poor harvest is an interesting scenario that I'd love to see.

You and me both.

Ditto.

[Hazegurl]

Xilizhra wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dave of Canada: The "problem" is that Pro-Mages probably think mages can just solve anything. Entirely unsupported by the game/lore - but it wouldn't change opinion.

@dragonflight288: I'm more interested in what Justinia allowed prior to the Templar attack.

What was her intent - and did the mages abuse that intent?

It's not made clear. She allowed a vote on making changes to the Circle. The templars burst in claiming that what the mages were discussing was illegal. Justinia never said anything about her feelings regarding the meeting... although she did sponsor an operation to free the arrested mages, which speaks volumes in and of itself.

Weren't they discussing a rebellion?

Secession, not attacking the Chantry.

Um no. They were there to discuss Pharamond's research. Fiona derailed the discussion to incite the mages against the Templars.