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[Medhia Nox]

So, Justinia was allowing the meeting to make "changes" to the Circle.

Secession is a dissolving of the Circles.

Without being obnoxiously clever and saying: "Yes, well - that IS a change."

Then the mages were abusing Justinia's olive branch by discussing secession.

And it seems like more than a "discussion" - since a vote had taken place - and secession had been agreed upon (and pressed upon those who didn't agree it seems).

I'm not saying what I think of the Templars - but the events of Asunder seem clear, and my opinion remains largely unchanged about the justifications of this rebellion.

I clearly need to read this book, or at least this chapter.  

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 28 octobre 2013 - 04:50 .

[dragonflight288]

Medhia Nox wrote...

So, Justinia was allowing the meeting to make "changes" to the Circle.

Secession is a dissolving of the Circles.

Without being obnoxiously clever and saying: "Yes, well - that IS a change."

Then the mages were abusing Justinia's olive branch by discussing secession.

And it seems like more than a "discussion" - since a vote had taken place - and secession had been agreed upon (and pressed upon those who didn't agree it seems).

I'm not saying what I think of the Templars - but the events of Asunder seem clear, and my opinion remains largely unchanged about the justifications of this rebellion.

I clearly need to read this book.

I highly recommend it. It's a good book. Rhys and Wynne may be mother and son, but they don't get along very well for a large portion of the book.

[Dean_the_Young]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Guys, leave Xil alone. Her opinions are more extreme on the side of mages than most, but that is no reason to denigrate her as a person.

You are right. There are plenty of other reasons to denigrate him as a person.

And those can be done elsewhere.

I've it to Xil, and I'll say it to you: this is immature. Grow up and do better.

[Hazegurl]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I'm more interested in what Justinia allowed prior to the Templar attack.

What was her intent - and did the mages abuse that intent?

Oh.

I have no clue. Justinia was being quite secretive. I'm sure some mages (Adrian, *cough*) abused her intent, but it's also quite likely that many mages didn't even know Justinia was on their side in some fashion.

Wynne informed them of the Divine's intent. She said that the research is the excuse she needs to ask for reform. Of course Fiona and Adrian railroaded her.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Still illegal.

Not to the extent, apparently, that Justinia wanted to see any punishments for what they did.

[Medhia Nox]

@dragonflight288: It would mean I'd probably hate Rhys' guts... cause I have the utmost respect for the Wynne character.

[dragonflight288]

Hazegurl wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I'm more interested in what Justinia allowed prior to the Templar attack.

What was her intent - and did the mages abuse that intent?

Oh.

I have no clue. Justinia was being quite secretive. I'm sure some mages (Adrian, *cough*) abused her intent, but it's also quite likely that many mages didn't even know Justinia was on their side in some fashion.

Wynne informed them of the Divine's intent. She said that the research is the excuse she needs to ask for reform. Of course Fiona and Adrian railroaded her.

I don't deny that.

But not all the blame for the Circle's declaring independence can be blamed on them. Wynne could have talked sense into the others. It happened before in Awakening. Nor does it change the fact that Lambert's attack was illegal and unjustified, especially since in the book they figure out he was planning the attack since before the meeting started when the meeting with the Divine didn't go his way.

Although, they don't have proof of that when they speculate on it, it's the only thing they could think of as to why Lambert attacked in the first place.

[LOLandStuff]

If you can blame the Chantry for what Anders did, then you can blame mages too since it's because of them the Chantry exists in the first place. They did have a morbid fascination with sacrificing slaves in the past, and still do.

[dragonflight288]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@dragonflight288: It would mean I'd probably hate Rhys' guts... cause I have the utmost respect for the Wynne character.

They get along quite well at the end, and he takes a templar as a lover in the end of the book....I recommend reading it and judging him for yourself.

[cjones91]

LOLandStuff wrote...

If you can blame the Chantry for what Anders did, then you can blame mages too since it's because of them the Chantry exists in the first place. They did have a morbid fascination with sacrificing slaves in the past, and still do.

So Tevinter represents all of the mages worldwide now?Don't judge a entire population for what a single country did.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lamberts actions were fully justified, since the mages were talking rebellion. He was well within his rights to shut down the meeting. Hell, I'd have expected him to meeter out swift and merciless justice right there to the treachorous filth. However he deigned that their pathetic lives were apparently worth something. Such a sentimental.... Of course I'm only talking about the ones who actually advocated secession. The ones who wanted no part in it, should be free to go about their business. Adrian, Rhys and Fiona though, should be made an example of.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yeah, but no.

I'm sorry, but I'm the correct one.

Xil, you concede your own errors far too often to be able to claim inherent accuracy.

Especially on a matter of subjective viewpoints.

[Medhia Nox]

@cjones91: To be fair - mage supporters all over the BSN call templars "rapists" now.

I think LOLandStuff was just trying to point out that the "Blame Game" is a bit silly.

It's used to justify the next immoral act about to be taken - which just continues the cycle.

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yeah, but no.

I'm sorry, but I'm the correct one.

Xil, you concede your own errors far too often to be able to claim inherent accuracy.

Especially on a matter of subjective viewpoints.

What, on Aneirin never saying he left the clan, with another elf speaking only of his preferring to be alone? I'm not sure that's subjective.

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lamberts actions were fully justified, since the mages were talking rebellion. He was well within his rights to shut down the meeting. Hell, I'd have expected him to meeter out swift and merciless justice right there to the treachorous filth. However he deigned that their pathetic lives were apparently worth something. Such a sentimental.... Of course I'm only talking about the ones who actually advocated secession. The ones who wanted no part in it, should be free to go about their business. Adrian, Rhys and Fiona though, should be made an example of.

Lambert had no business involving himself in Circle affairs to begin with since that's a Templar's duty.

[LOLandStuff]

What Medhia Nox said.

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cjones91: To be fair - mage supporters all over the BSN call templars "rapists" now.

I think LOLandStuff was just trying to point out that the "Blame Game" is a bit silly.

It's used to justify the next immoral act about to be taken - which just continues the cycle.

And yet I always hear people use Tevinter as a way to blame all mages for what they did.It goes both ways because the other side also plays the Blame Game.

Modifié par cjones91, 28 octobre 2013 - 05:05 .

[Hazegurl]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I'm more interested in what Justinia allowed prior to the Templar attack.

What was her intent - and did the mages abuse that intent?

Oh.

I have no clue. Justinia was being quite secretive. I'm sure some mages (Adrian, *cough*) abused her intent, but it's also quite likely that many mages didn't even know Justinia was on their side in some fashion.

Wynne informed them of the Divine's intent. She said that the research is the excuse she needs to ask for reform. Of course Fiona and Adrian railroaded her.

I don't deny that.

But not all the blame for the Circle's declaring independence can be blamed on them. Wynne could have talked sense into the others. It happened before in Awakening. Nor does it change the fact that Lambert's attack was illegal and unjustified, especially since in the book they figure out he was planning the attack since before the meeting started when the meeting with the Divine didn't go his way.

Although, they don't have proof of that when they speculate on it, it's the only thing they could think of as to why Lambert attacked in the first place.

This goes back to what I said before. Both sides are responsible for their actions that cause everything to go haywire. The Templars are eager to attack while the mages continue to give them just cause to do so.

Lambert did not just walk into the room and began attacking mages. He brought it to everyone's attention that Pharamond was murdered and Rhys was the culprit. He told everyone to return to their towers unharmed.  Fiona refused and then threatened Lambert. Then Evangeline drew her sword and the fight started. Let's not forget that it was Adrian that set these events in motion to begin with. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yeah, but no.

I'm sorry, but I'm the correct one.

Xil, you concede your own errors far too often to be able to claim inherent accuracy.

Especially on a matter of subjective viewpoints.

What, on Aneirin never saying he left the clan, with another elf speaking only of his preferring to be alone? I'm not sure that's subjective.

No, on what you were talking about in regards to their only being one perspective on the Dalish juggling mage-children.

[AlexanderCousland]

LOLandStuff wrote...

If you can blame the Chantry for what Anders did, then you can blame mages too since it's because of them the Chantry exists in the first place. They did have a morbid fascination with sacrificing slaves in the past, and still do.

This*

It's seems alot of people like to embrace hypocrisy though, quite sad...really.

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yeah, but no.

I'm sorry, but I'm the correct one.

Xil, you concede your own errors far too often to be able to claim inherent accuracy.

Especially on a matter of subjective viewpoints.

What, on Aneirin never saying he left the clan, with another elf speaking only of his preferring to be alone? I'm not sure that's subjective.

No, on what you were talking about in regards to their only being one perspective on the Dalish juggling mage-children.

My quote was in reference to Aneirin in particular. Possibly I quoted the wrong thing at some point. At any rate, would your criticism not apply to us both equally? Or am I the only one worth saving?

[cjones91]

FreshIstay wrote...

LOLandStuff wrote...

If you can blame the Chantry for what Anders did, then you can blame mages too since it's because of them the Chantry exists in the first place. They did have a morbid fascination with sacrificing slaves in the past, and still do.

This*

It's seems alot of people like to embrace hypocrisy though, quite sad...really.

Except they aren't condemning a entire population because of the actions of one country.

[Reaverwind]

Hazegurl wrote...


This goes back to what I said before. Both sides are responsible for their actions that cause everything to go haywire. The Templars are eager to attack while the mages continue to give them just cause to do so.

Lambert did not just walk into the room and began attacking mages. He brought it to everyone's attention that Pharamond was murdered and Rhys was the culprit. He told everyone to return to their towers unharmed.  Fiona refused and then threatened Lambert. Then Evangeline drew her sword and the fight started. Let's not forget that it was Adrian that set these events in motion to begin with. 

She wanted to make damn sure to silence any opposition within the mages. 

[cjones91]

Reaverwind wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...


This goes back to what I said before. Both sides are responsible for their actions that cause everything to go haywire. The Templars are eager to attack while the mages continue to give them just cause to do so.

Lambert did not just walk into the room and began attacking mages. He brought it to everyone's attention that Pharamond was murdered and Rhys was the culprit. He told everyone to return to their towers unharmed.  Fiona refused and then threatened Lambert. Then Evangeline drew her sword and the fight started. Let's not forget that it was Adrian that set these events in motion to begin with. 

She wanted to make damn sure to silence any opposition within the mages. 

Andrian is a perfect example of a mage who just wanted to cause trouble.I hope she dies in DA:I.

[Reznore57]

Well I guess Asunder was very Orlesian.
The divine working behind everyone's back right after Kirkwall when the mages /templars were already at each others throat...

I mean raising the question of the right of Tranquility at this very moment , when it was obvious both sides weren't able to communicate properly...It's not really surprising it all end up in open war.