4643 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

She's referencing how the topic needs to be brought up in every thread including ones that are made specifically not to be about that topic. I certainly would be against the idea of a mage support thread being swarmed by templar supporters talking about how all mages need to be reformed by going the qunari route.

A topic about templars is, by necessity, about mages, because mages are the entire purpose of templars. For a topic not about mages at all, or ones very rarely bringing them in, look at qunari or elf ones.

[Ianamus]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
Meredith doesn't hate mages, this is true. She herself ways that she actuall feels sorry for them. She considers magic a "cancer." or something like that. 

“Magic is a cancer in the heart of our land, just as it was in the time of Andraste. And like her, we are left with no choice but to purify it with fire and blood.” - Meredith

I'm not entirly sure that she feels sorry foer them when she clearly wants to cull all of the mages.

What I don't understand as a Pro-mage like myself is....... Why do I like this charecter so damn much? Why am I fasincated with her? Why do I find her unquie? Why? Why? Why and Why?

She is actually one of my top most favorite NPCs in DA.

"I tried to have sympathy! Maker knows, I've tried! But how can we allow them freedom when so many would use it to commit atrocities? They control minds, they become abominations, they began the Blight itself!"

I really like Meredith too, as a character. I wish she was more prominent in the game from earlier on, when she was less paranoid. probably the most tragic charcter in Dragon Age 2. 

Modifié par EJ107, 29 octobre 2013 - 06:24 .

[HiroVoid]

eluvianix wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

This thread has gone off the rails, fell, landed on another rail, went along that for a while, and then jumped the rails again.

Welcome to the free fall.

And got better every time.

Not if one is interested in discussing anything other than how hard done by mages are and how evit the templars/chantry are. In fact, I'm guessing this it exactly what happened to the first thread. I swear, by the time the game is released, I'm going to be all for gutting mages on sight, lol.

First, are you literally only seeing one-half to one-third of the posts ever made on this topic? Because that's certainly not all that's been said.

Second, why allow yourself to be led like that?

She's referencing how the topic needs to be brought up in every thread including ones that are made specifically not to be about that topic.  I certainly would be against the idea of a mage support thread being swarmed by templar supporters talking about how all mages need to be reformed by going the qunari route.

Even still though, that is there right. Just as promages have the right to do a similar thing on the Pro-Templar threads.

Always going against a thread's intended purpose is considered de-railing which is generally considered against the rules.  Going into a topic about game mechanics to start a debate about mages and templars wouldn't be considered correct.......unless it has to do with mages and templars gameplay-wise.

[HiroVoid]

Xilizhra wrote...

She's referencing how the topic needs to be brought up in every thread including ones that are made specifically not to be about that topic. I certainly would be against the idea of a mage support thread being swarmed by templar supporters talking about how all mages need to be reformed by going the qunari route.

A topic about templars is, by necessity, about mages, because mages are the entire purpose of templars. For a topic not about mages at all, or ones very rarely bringing them in, look at qunari or elf ones.

Except this is a topic made for the purpose of supporting templars, not about mages or templars being right.  A topic doesn't neccesarily have to include all the aspects of the entire discussion of the greater picture.

[Xilizhra]

I really like Meredith too- I wish she was more prominent in the game from earlier on, when she was less paranoid. probably the most tragic charcter in Dragon Age 2.

Not even close. Karl, the other Tranquil, Alain, Orsino, Anders, Merrill, that one Saarebas, the city elf population in general, and the various Fereldan refugees all outstrip her. Meredith's fall was due almost solely to her own decisions (and I'm not convinced the sword had a whole lot to do with it, as her personality in Act 3 is barely any different than in Act 2 until she actually draws the sword in the final battle.

Except this is a topic made for the purpose of supporting templars, not
about mages or templars being right.  A topic doesn't neccesarily have
to include all the aspects of the entire discussion of the greater
picture.

I might support the templars with extensive reforms; what I tried to do at the beginning of this thread was bring up how to reform and fix the templars.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 octobre 2013 - 06:26 .

[Shadow Fox]

HiroVoid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

This thread has gone off the rails, fell, landed on another rail, went along that for a while, and then jumped the rails again.

Welcome to the free fall.

And got better every time.

Not if one is interested in discussing anything other than how hard done by mages are and how evit the templars/chantry are. In fact, I'm guessing this it exactly what happened to the first thread. I swear, by the time the game is released, I'm going to be all for gutting mages on sight, lol.

First, are you literally only seeing one-half to one-third of the posts ever made on this topic? Because that's certainly not all that's been said.

Second, why allow yourself to be led like that?

She's referencing how the topic needs to be brought up in every thread including ones that are made specifically not to be about that topic.  I certainly would be against the idea of a mage support thread being swarmed by templar supporters talking about how all mages need to be reformed by going the qunari route.

Well that has happened before.

[HiroVoid]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

This thread has gone off the rails, fell, landed on another rail, went along that for a while, and then jumped the rails again.

Welcome to the free fall.

And got better every time.

Not if one is interested in discussing anything other than how hard done by mages are and how evit the templars/chantry are. In fact, I'm guessing this it exactly what happened to the first thread. I swear, by the time the game is released, I'm going to be all for gutting mages on sight, lol.

First, are you literally only seeing one-half to one-third of the posts ever made on this topic? Because that's certainly not all that's been said.

Second, why allow yourself to be led like that?

She's referencing how the topic needs to be brought up in every thread including ones that are made specifically not to be about that topic.  I certainly would be against the idea of a mage support thread being swarmed by templar supporters talking about how all mages need to be reformed by going the qunari route.

Well that has happened before.

And I'm against that.

[Shadow Fox]

HiroVoid wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

This thread has gone off the rails, fell, landed on another rail, went along that for a while, and then jumped the rails again.

Welcome to the free fall.

And got better every time.

Not if one is interested in discussing anything other than how hard done by mages are and how evit the templars/chantry are. In fact, I'm guessing this it exactly what happened to the first thread. I swear, by the time the game is released, I'm going to be all for gutting mages on sight, lol.

First, are you literally only seeing one-half to one-third of the posts ever made on this topic? Because that's certainly not all that's been said.

Second, why allow yourself to be led like that?

She's referencing how the topic needs to be brought up in every thread including ones that are made specifically not to be about that topic.  I certainly would be against the idea of a mage support thread being swarmed by templar supporters talking about how all mages need to be reformed by going the qunari route.

Well that has happened before.

And I'm against that.

Just saying both sides are equally guilty of thread derailment.

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

I really like Meredith too- I wish she was more prominent in the game from earlier on, when she was less paranoid. probably the most tragic charcter in Dragon Age 2.

Not even close. Karl, the other Tranquil, Alain, Orsino, Anders, Merrill, that one Saarebas, the city elf population in general, and the various Fereldan refugees all outstrip her. Meredith's fall was due almost solely to her own decisions (and I'm not convinced the sword had a whole lot to do with it, as her personality in Act 3 is barely any different than in Act 2 until she actually draws the sword in the final battle.

I still think Meredith was the most tragic. Had her own sister slaughter her family and village, became a templar because of this, got stationed in the city with the most blood mages and demonic possesions, and slowly lost her mind (then quickly, with the idol) all the while believing she was doing the right thing. 

Much more tragic than just being oppressed. 

[Xilizhra]

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I really like Meredith too- I wish she was more prominent in the game from earlier on, when she was less paranoid. probably the most tragic charcter in Dragon Age 2.

Not even close. Karl, the other Tranquil, Alain, Orsino, Anders, Merrill, that one Saarebas, the city elf population in general, and the various Fereldan refugees all outstrip her. Meredith's fall was due almost solely to her own decisions (and I'm not convinced the sword had a whole lot to do with it, as her personality in Act 3 is barely any different than in Act 2 until she actually draws the sword in the final battle.

I still think Meredith was the most tragic. Had her own sister slaughter her family and village, became a templar because of this, got stationed in the city with the most blood mages and demonic possesions, and slowly lost her mind (then quickly, with the idol) all the while believing she was doing the right thing. 

Much more tragic than just being oppressed. 

I'd find it more tragic if she wasn't wholly responsible for everything that happened after her sister died.

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I really like Meredith too- I wish she was more prominent in the game from earlier on, when she was less paranoid. probably the most tragic charcter in Dragon Age 2.

Not even close. Karl, the other Tranquil, Alain, Orsino, Anders, Merrill, that one Saarebas, the city elf population in general, and the various Fereldan refugees all outstrip her. Meredith's fall was due almost solely to her own decisions (and I'm not convinced the sword had a whole lot to do with it, as her personality in Act 3 is barely any different than in Act 2 until she actually draws the sword in the final battle.

I still think Meredith was the most tragic. Had her own sister slaughter her family and village, became a templar because of this, got stationed in the city with the most blood mages and demonic possesions, and slowly lost her mind (then quickly, with the idol) all the while believing she was doing the right thing. 

Much more tragic than just being oppressed. 

I'd find it more tragic if she wasn't wholly responsible for everything that happened after her sister died.

Lol No

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I really like Meredith too- I wish she was more prominent in the game from earlier on, when she was less paranoid. probably the most tragic charcter in Dragon Age 2.

Not even close. Karl, the other Tranquil, Alain, Orsino, Anders, Merrill, that one Saarebas, the city elf population in general, and the various Fereldan refugees all outstrip her. Meredith's fall was due almost solely to her own decisions (and I'm not convinced the sword had a whole lot to do with it, as her personality in Act 3 is barely any different than in Act 2 until she actually draws the sword in the final battle.

I still think Meredith was the most tragic. Had her own sister slaughter her family and village, became a templar because of this, got stationed in the city with the most blood mages and demonic possesions, and slowly lost her mind (then quickly, with the idol) all the while believing she was doing the right thing. 

Much more tragic than just being oppressed. 

I'd find it more tragic if she wasn't wholly responsible for everything that happened after her sister died.

Causa una. One of the worst types of fallacies known to man. 

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I really like Meredith too- I wish she was more prominent in the game from earlier on, when she was less paranoid. probably the most tragic charcter in Dragon Age 2.

Not even close. Karl, the other Tranquil, Alain, Orsino, Anders, Merrill, that one Saarebas, the city elf population in general, and the various Fereldan refugees all outstrip her. Meredith's fall was due almost solely to her own decisions (and I'm not convinced the sword had a whole lot to do with it, as her personality in Act 3 is barely any different than in Act 2 until she actually draws the sword in the final battle.

I still think Meredith was the most tragic. Had her own sister slaughter her family and village, became a templar because of this, got stationed in the city with the most blood mages and demonic possesions, and slowly lost her mind (then quickly, with the idol) all the while believing she was doing the right thing. 

Much more tragic than just being oppressed. 

I'd find it more tragic if she wasn't wholly responsible for everything that happened after her sister died.

She wasn't responsible for the ridiculously high blood mage and demonic possesion rate in Kirkwall- that was the veil being thin there. She also wasn't responsible for the Viscounts death and the power struggle it created, or the Chantry being blown up by Anders. 

And one of the people on your list of "more tragic", Merrill, was also responsible for almost every single bad thing that happened to her- including  her original exile. 

Modifié par EJ107, 29 octobre 2013 - 06:43 .

[Xilizhra]

Causa una. One of the worst types of fallacies known to man.

Everything in the post that I was replying to, note.

She wasn't responsible for the ridiculously high blood mage and demonic
possesion rate in Kirkwall- that was the veil. She also wasn't
responsible for the Viscounts death and the power struggle it created,
or the Chantry being blown up by Anders.

She joined in Kirkwall, she created the power struggle by clamping down after the Viscount's death, and attacked a group of people that had nothing to do with the Chantry explosion.

And one of the people on your list of "more tragic", Merrill was also
responsible for every single bad thing that happened to her- including  her original exile.

And yet, no. First, she wasn't exiled in Act 1, that was just leaving for a while. Marethari was responsible for poisoning the clan in Act 2 and allowing herself to be possessed in Act 3, while Audacity then tried to kill her.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 octobre 2013 - 06:43 .

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Causa una. One of the worst types of fallacies known to man.

Everything in the post that I was replying to, note.

She wasn't responsible for the ridiculously high blood mage and demonic
possesion rate in Kirkwall- that was the veil. She also wasn't
responsible for the Viscounts death and the power struggle it created,
or the Chantry being blown up by Anders.

She joined in Kirkwall, she created the power struggle by clamping down after the Viscount's death, and attacked a group of people that had nothing to do with the Chantry explosion.

Two of those are her reactions to events that were caused by other people, not actions she caused herself. 

Xilizhra wrote...

And yet, no. First, she wasn't exiled in Act 1, that was just leaving for a while. Marethari was responsible for poisoning the clan in Act 2 and allowing herself to be possessed in Act 3, while Audacity then tried to kill her.

Her learning blood magic was what caused all of that- and therefore it was her actions that led to it. Marethari letting herself get possesed was the result of Merrill refusing to give up on the mirror despite numerous people, including potentially Hawke, telling her to. 

Modifié par EJ107, 29 octobre 2013 - 06:45 .

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

Causa una. One of the worst types of fallacies known to man.

Everything in the post that I was replying to, note.

And, it's still a fallacy because you are perpetuating that she is the only cause of these things, even though most have come to accept that this is not true. 

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

She joined in Kirkwall, she created the power struggle by clamping down after the Viscount's death, and attacked a group of people that had nothing to do with the Chantry explosion.

And one of the people on your list of "more tragic", Merrill was also
responsible for every single bad thing that happened to her- including  her original exile.

And yet, no. First, she wasn't exiled in Act 1, that was just leaving for a while. Marethari was responsible for poisoning the clan in Act 2 and allowing herself to be possessed in Act 3, while Audacity then tried to kill her.

1. Bolded part was the result of the idol not Meredith herself, plus your Hawke siding with the Mages

2. Which is still result of Merrill's actions

[Xilizhra]

Two of those are her reactions to events that were caused by other people, not actions she caused herself.

She chose her reactions.

Her learning blood magic was what caused all of that- and therefore it was her actions that led to it. Marethari letting herself get possesed was the result of Merrill refusing to give up on the mirror despite numerous people, including potentially Hawke, telling her to.

Learning blood magic did not cause anything. Her magic did not animate of its own accord and mind control others into turning on her. Those were the choices of others.

[LOLandStuff]

Merrill being responsible for her own actions?
You people don't know what you're talking about and are obviously Merrill haters when you have so many others to blame for her doings.
Did any of you even bother to take a look at her? Look at those eyes! Just look at them!

[Shadow Fox]

*eats sweets*

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...
Learning blood magic did not cause anything. Her magic did not animate of its own accord and mind control others into turning on her. Those were the choices of others.

By that logic I should be allowed to run around naked shouting curses at everybody, and when I am imprisoned it is not my fault at all. My nakedness and curses did not magically animate and mind control others into throwing me into prison, they chose to. 

A complete lack of ability to gauge how others will react to your actions does not mean that it is not your fault when others react negatively to your actions. 

[Xilizhra]

By that logic I should be allowed to run around naked shouting curses at everybody, and when I am imprisoned it is not my fault at all. My nakedness and curses did not magically animate and mind control others into throwing me into prison, they chose to.

If the acquisition of knowledge not related to violating other peoples' privacy actually caused harm in and of itself, this might be a valid analogy.

Additionally, it was based on outright falsehoods, namely that Merrill would somehow spread the taint back to the clan, when she had actually cleansed it wholly from the Eluvian.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 octobre 2013 - 06:56 .

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

By that logic I should be allowed to run around naked shouting curses at everybody, and when I am imprisoned it is not my fault at all. My nakedness and curses did not magically animate and mind control others into throwing me into prison, they chose to.

If the acquisition of knowledge not related to violating other peoples' privacy actually caused harm in and of itself, this might be a valid analogy.

Additionally, it was based on outright falsehoods, namely that Merrill would somehow spread the taint back to the clan, when she had actually cleansed it wholly from the Eluvian.

But Merrill began learning a type of magic that not only is outlawed by the chantry- the leading body on the contient, but also increases risk of possesion for any mage who learns it. 

Not only was she putting the clan at risk by increasing the chance she would become an abomination and cosorting with demons, but she also increased the chance that the Templars would come into conflict with the clan, if it was discovered that one of their mages were a blood mage.

Howevermuch Merrill chose to think and claim her actions weren't hurting or endangering the clan they definately were. 

Modifié par EJ107, 29 octobre 2013 - 07:00 .

[Xilizhra]

But Merrill began learning a type of magic that not only is outlawed by the chantry- the leading body on the contient, but also increases risk of possesion for any mage who learns it.

If they summon demons, which she didn't.

Not only was she putting the clan at risk by increasing the chance she would become an abomination and cosorting with demons, but she also increased the chance that the Templars would come into conflict with the clan, if it was discovered that one of their mages were a blood mage.

She was doing her work in Kirkwall; she was no more a threat to her clan than any other mage in the place.