4643 réponses à ce sujet

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

But Merrill began learning a type of magic that not only is outlawed by the chantry- the leading body on the contient, but also increases risk of possesion for any mage who learns it.

If they summon demons, which she didn't.

Not only was she putting the clan at risk by increasing the chance she would become an abomination and cosorting with demons, but she also increased the chance that the Templars would come into conflict with the clan, if it was discovered that one of their mages were a blood mage.

She was doing her work in Kirkwall; she was no more a threat to her clan than any other mage in the place.

Arguably that is even worse as she is now putting the entire city in danger. 

Plus she went back to the clan to request an ancient elven to finish the mirror and to speak with the demon again- that time also involving Hawke and his/her friends. She was still involving the clan, and if it was discovered what she was doing the clan would still be in trouble with the templars. 

Modifié par EJ107, 29 octobre 2013 - 07:06 .

[Xilizhra]

Arguably that is even worse as she is now putting the entire city in danger.

And yet... never produced anything bad at all, especially since she only used blood magic once in the creation of the Eluvian, to cleanse the shard she got. Before the game even started.

Plus she went back to the clan to request an ancient elven to finish the mirror and to speak with the demon again- that time also involving Hawke and his/her friends. She was still involving the clan, and if it was discovered what she was doing the clan would still be in trouble with the templars.

Given how our own local Grey Warden could and would spot her a mile away if she was some taint vector, no actual danger came of her just walking in. And they were already put into trouble with the templars with Feynriel, but none of them resented Hawke for that.

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Plus she went back to the clan to request an ancient elven to finish the mirror and to speak with the demon again- that time also involving Hawke and his/her friends. She was still involving the clan, and if it was discovered what she was doing the clan would still be in trouble with the templars.

Given how our own local Grey Warden could and would spot her a mile away if she was some taint vector, no actual danger came of her just walking in. And they were already put into trouble with the templars with Feynriel, but none of them resented Hawke for that.

The problem with the mirror wasn't the taint, but the demon. Marethari said herslef that when it was complete the demon would use it to enter the world- and if he had it would have been a distater.

Xilizhra wrote...

Arguably that is even worse as she is now putting the entire city in danger.

And yet... never produced anything bad at all, especially since she only used blood magic once in the creation of the Eluvian, to cleanse the shard she got. Before the game even started.

This was because she never actually finished it so the demon couldn't come through, and because Hawkes (and subsequently varrics) influence stopped the templars finding and capturing her (And, probably, executing her because of her blood magic)

[Xilizhra]

The problem with the mirror wasn't the taint, but the demon. Marethari said herslef that when it was complete the demon would use it to enter the world- and if he had it would have been a distater.

No, Audacity said that while wearing Marethari's flesh. There's no basis to believe this from anywhere else.

[cjones91]

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Plus she went back to the clan to request an ancient elven to finish the mirror and to speak with the demon again- that time also involving Hawke and his/her friends. She was still involving the clan, and if it was discovered what she was doing the clan would still be in trouble with the templars.

Given how our own local Grey Warden could and would spot her a mile away if she was some taint vector, no actual danger came of her just walking in. And they were already put into trouble with the templars with Feynriel, but none of them resented Hawke for that.

The problem with the mirror wasn't the taint, but the demon. Marethari said herslef that when it was complete the demon would use it to enter the world- and if he had it would have been a distater.

Xilizhra wrote...

Arguably that is even worse as she is now putting the entire city in danger.

And yet... never produced anything bad at all, especially since she only used blood magic once in the creation of the Eluvian, to cleanse the shard she got. Before the game even started.

This was because she never actually finished it so the demon couldn't come through, and because Hawkes (and subsequently varrics) influence stopped the templars finding and capturing her (And, probably, executing her because of her blood magic)

I don't recall anything about Audacity being trapped in the Eluvian so that is incorrect.

[Ianamus]

cjones91 wrote...

I don't recall anything about Audacity being trapped in the Eluvian so that is incorrect.

I'm just going by what Marethari said, and it was definately brought up in-game. I assmue its because the mirrors act as a way to enter the fade, and the demon still exists in the fade to some degree. 

Xilizhra wrote...

The problem with the mirror wasn't the taint, but the demon. Marethari said herslef that when it was complete the demon would use it to enter the world- and if he had it would have been a distater.

No, Audacity said that while wearing Marethari's flesh. There's no basis to believe this from anywhere else.

To me it was the only plausible explanation as to why the demon helped her in the first place. It seemed to make sense. If Merrill completing the mirror didn't benefit it then why on Thedas would it help her in exchange for nothing in return?

Modifié par EJ107, 29 octobre 2013 - 07:41 .

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

The problem with the mirror wasn't the taint, but the demon. Marethari said herslef that when it was complete the demon would use it to enter the world- and if he had it would have been a distater.

No, Audacity said that while wearing Marethari's flesh. There's no basis to believe this from anywhere else.

If that's the case then why would Audacity lie about it's intent?

[Xilizhra]

To me it was the only plausible explanation as to why the demon helped her in the first place. It seemed to make sense. If Merrill completing the mirror didn't benefit it then why on Thedas would it help her in exchange for nothing in return?

Because Marethari, both far more prideful and in much closer physical proximity to Audacity, was the true goal.

If that's the case then why would Audacity lie about it's intent?

To demoralize Merrill and make her think everything was her fault, a trend continued when it conjures illusions of other elves to berate and attack her.

[Reaverwind]

errant_knight wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

This thread has gone off the rails, fell, landed on another rail, went along that for a while, and then jumped the rails again.

Welcome to the free fall.

And got better every time.

Not if one is interested in discussing anything other than how hard done by mages are and how evit the templars/chantry are. In fact, I'm guessing this it exactly what happened to the first thread. I swear, by the time the game is released, I'm going to be all for gutting mages on sight, lol.

Join the club!

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

To me it was the only plausible explanation as to why the demon helped her in the first place. It seemed to make sense. If Merrill completing the mirror didn't benefit it then why on Thedas would it help her in exchange for nothing in return?

Because Marethari, both far more prideful and in much closer physical proximity to Audacity, was the true goal.

If that's the case then why would Audacity lie about it's intent?

To demoralize Merrill and make her think everything was her fault, a trend continued when it conjures illusions of other elves to berate and attack her.

If it really is the demon talking, not Marethari, then why did it ruin the elent of surprise by telling them the demon was trapped inside her instead of attacking while they were off-guard?

And why did it tell them that the demon would only die with her if it later intended to pretend to be Marethari to survive? Those very words are what saves you in the end. 

I strongly believe that was Marethari speaking- telling you that she needed to die to kill it in case the demon tried to trick hawke and Merrill later. 

Modifié par EJ107, 29 octobre 2013 - 07:50 .

[dragonflight288]

I'm just going by what Marethari said, and it was definately brought up in-game. I assmue its because the mirrors act as a way to enter the fade, and the demon still exists in the fade to some degree.

Merethari never says it anywhere except at the point she had already been possessed. Ever.

At that point, it's the demon speaking, not Merethari and so it's suspect.

Up to that point, even in Origins in the Dalish origin, Merethari is absolutely terrified of eluvians because she's so scared of the taint that cost the clan two hunters will come back, and refuses to research them entirely. Merrill is the only one who looks into it, and that makes her a greater expert on eluvians than Merethari, because Merethari let her fear and paranoia of the taint color her opinion of all eluvians.

[dragonflight288]

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

To me it was the only plausible explanation as to why the demon helped her in the first place. It seemed to make sense. If Merrill completing the mirror didn't benefit it then why on Thedas would it help her in exchange for nothing in return?

Because Marethari, both far more prideful and in much closer physical proximity to Audacity, was the true goal.

If that's the case then why would Audacity lie about it's intent?

To demoralize Merrill and make her think everything was her fault, a trend continued when it conjures illusions of other elves to berate and attack her.

If it really is the demon talking, not Marethari, then why did it ruin the elent of surprise by telling them the demon was trapped inside her instead of attacking while they were off-guard?

And why did it tell them that the demon would only die with her if it later intended to pretend to be Marethari to survive? Those very words are what saves you in the end. 

I strongly believe that was Marethari speaking- telling you that she needed to die to kill it in case the demon tried to trick hawke and Merrill later. 

Demoralize, kill her without a fight. The demon tries tricking Merrill again later during the fight by pretending to be Merethari having been cured of being an abomination...and then stabs Merrill of Hawke falls for it.

[cjones91]

EJ107 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I don't recall anything about Audacity being trapped in the Eluvian so that is incorrect.

I'm just going by what Marethari said, and it was definately brought up in-game. I assmue its because the mirrors act as a way to enter the fade, and the demon still exists in the fade to some degree. 

Xilizhra wrote...

The problem with the mirror wasn't the taint, but the demon. Marethari said herslef that when it was complete the demon would use it to enter the world- and if he had it would have been a distater.

No, Audacity said that while wearing Marethari's flesh. There's no basis to believe this from anywhere else.

To me it was the only plausible explanation as to why the demon helped her in the first place. It seemed to make sense. If Merrill completing the mirror didn't benefit it then why on Thedas would it help her in exchange for nothing in return?

Why would you trust the word of Marethari who was possessed when she allegedly said that?

[Xilizhra]

If it really is the demon talking, not Marethari then why did it ruin the elent of surprise by telling them the demon was trapped inside her instead of attacking while they were off-guard?

It's a pride demon, so it may very well be simple pride. We do, however, know for certain that Marethari was possessed when you speak to her at the beginning of A New Path; it's physically impossible for her to have made it up to Pride's End and remove Audacity, after Hawke spoke to her, before Hawke and company could make it up to the top of the mountain.

And why did it tell them that the demon would die with her if it later intended to pretend to be Marethari? Those very words are what saves you in the end.

Because Merrill already knew that, with it being Dalish tradition as she brings up at the beginning of Long Way Home. It's just another way to twist the knife.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...
She joined in Kirkwall, she created the power struggle by clamping down after the Viscount's death, and attacked a group of people that had nothing to do with the Chantry explosion.

Meh. The Circle was a lost cause before Anders anyway


Meredith rules, mages drool.

[cjones91]

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

To me it was the only plausible explanation as to why the demon helped her in the first place. It seemed to make sense. If Merrill completing the mirror didn't benefit it then why on Thedas would it help her in exchange for nothing in return?

Because Marethari, both far more prideful and in much closer physical proximity to Audacity, was the true goal.

If that's the case then why would Audacity lie about it's intent?

To demoralize Merrill and make her think everything was her fault, a trend continued when it conjures illusions of other elves to berate and attack her.

If it really is the demon talking, not Marethari, then why did it ruin the elent of surprise by telling them the demon was trapped inside her instead of attacking while they were off-guard?

And why did it tell them that the demon would only die with her if it later intended to pretend to be Marethari to survive? Those very words are what saves you in the end. 

I strongly believe that was Marethari speaking- telling you that she needed to die to kill it in case the demon tried to trick hawke and Merrill later. 

Yet when you fall for her ruse the second time Marethari stabs Merril.Audacity may have said those things to torment Merril.

[cjones91]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
She joined in Kirkwall, she created the power struggle by clamping down after the Viscount's death, and attacked a group of people that had nothing to do with the Chantry explosion.

Meh. The Circle was a lost cause before Anders anyway


Meredith rules, mages drool.

Meredith would have been removed from power if Anders had'nt blown up the only person who could do it.

[cjones91]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I'm just going by what Marethari said, and it was definately brought up in-game. I assmue its because the mirrors act as a way to enter the fade, and the demon still exists in the fade to some degree.

Merethari never says it anywhere except at the point she had already been possessed. Ever.

At that point, it's the demon speaking, not Merethari and so it's suspect.

Up to that point, even in Origins in the Dalish origin, Merethari is absolutely terrified of eluvians because she's so scared of the taint that cost the clan two hunters will come back, and refuses to research them entirely. Merrill is the only one who looks into it, and that makes her a greater expert on eluvians than Merethari, because Merethari let her fear and paranoia of the taint color her opinion of all eluvians.

Kind of like the Chantry in regards to mages.

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

If that's the case then why would Audacity lie about it's intent?

To demoralize Merrill and make her think everything was her fault, a trend continued when it conjures illusions of other elves to berate and attack her.

good point.

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

If it really is the demon talking, not Marethari then why did it ruin the elent of surprise by telling them the demon was trapped inside her instead of attacking while they were off-guard?

It's a pride demon, so it may very well be simple pride. We do, however, know for certain that Marethari was possessed when you speak to her at the beginning of A New Path; it's physically impossible for her to have made it up to Pride's End and remove Audacity, after Hawke spoke to her, before Hawke and company could make it up to the top of the mountain.

And why did it tell them that the demon would die with her if it later intended to pretend to be Marethari? Those very words are what saves you in the end.

Because Merrill already knew that, with it being Dalish tradition as she brings up at the beginning of Long Way Home. It's just another way to twist the knife.

It seems far more plausible that Marethari trapped the demon within herself and held onto her will until Hawke and Merrill arrived, she had spoken to them and warned them that she needed to die, and then the demon took control.

Watching the scene again on youtube has only made this more obvious- a demon wouldn't have a peaceful conversation about how much she loved Merrill and wanted her to be safe before attacking her. 

"Kill me too, and then Merrill will finally be safe"

Modifié par EJ107, 29 octobre 2013 - 08:01 .

[errant_knight]

Xilizhra wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

This thread has gone off the rails, fell, landed on another rail, went along that for a while, and then jumped the rails again.

Welcome to the free fall.

And got better every time.

Not if one is interested in discussing anything other than how hard done by mages are and how evit the templars/chantry are. In fact, I'm guessing this it exactly what happened to the first thread. I swear, by the time the game is released, I'm going to be all for gutting mages on sight, lol.

First, are you literally only seeing one-half to one-third of the posts ever made on this topic? Because that's certainly not all that's been said.

Second, why allow yourself to be led like that?

Not led, annoyed, lol.

[Reaverwind]

errant_knight wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

This thread has gone off the rails, fell, landed on another rail, went along that for a while, and then jumped the rails again.

Welcome to the free fall.

And got better every time.

Not if one is interested in discussing anything other than how hard done by mages are and how evit the templars/chantry are. In fact, I'm guessing this it exactly what happened to the first thread. I swear, by the time the game is released, I'm going to be all for gutting mages on sight, lol.

First, are you literally only seeing one-half to one-third of the posts ever made on this topic? Because that's certainly not all that's been said.

Second, why allow yourself to be led like that?

Not led, annoyed, lol.

It does get really annoying when certain parties have so little tolerance for dissenting opinions they end up beating ye olde dead horse on every thread, and then some.

[Xilizhra]

It seems far more plausible that Marethari trapped the demon within herself and held onto her will until Hawke and Merrill arrived, she had spoken to them and warned them that she needed to die, and then the demon took control.

Why stay in camp surrounded by vulnerable Dalish? Or, perhaps more to the point, why lure Hawke and Merrill to an isolated location where the demon's power is probably strongest? Why did she not seem to be struggling at all when first spoken to in camp, and only sounding like she was struggling when sounding like that would directly aid in the demon's deception?

Watching the scene again on youtube has only made this more obvious- a demon wouldn't have a peaceful conversation about how much she loved Merrill and wanted her to be safe before attacking her.

Of course it would. Origins has a demon having a peaceful conversation about how much it loves a templar. Caress in DA2 promises love to Aveline. Even if they're lying, demons can certainly talk calmly about love, if it suits their purposes.

[Shadow Fox]

I'm starting to think Allan's right.

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Watching the scene again on youtube has only made this more obvious- a demon wouldn't have a peaceful conversation about how much she loved Merrill and wanted her to be safe before attacking her.

Of course it would. Origins has a demon having a peaceful conversation about how much it loves a templar. Caress in DA2 promises love to Aveline. Even if they're lying, demons can certainly talk calmly about love, if it suits their purposes.

Two desire demons talked about love, as that was the desire they were manipulating in the Templar, and were using to manipulate Aveline. 

When Marethari "comes back" and tries to decieve Merrill and Hawke it says "You are so much stronger than I imagined Da'len" - very specifically trying to decieve her using her pride. 

"Your blood magic always had a price, I have chosen to pay it for you" "Kill me and then Merrill will finally be safe" does not sound like something a pride demon would say, rather the sort of thing the loving keeper would. 

Modifié par EJ107, 29 octobre 2013 - 08:12 .