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[Xilizhra]

When Marethari "comes back" and tries to decieve Merrill and Hawke it says "You are so much stronger than I imagined Da'len" - very specifically trying to decieve her using her pride.

That's because the demon was trying to fulfill something in that instance; in the line beforehand, it's trying to demoralize Merrill, specifically attacking her pride to weaken her in combat. As it continues to with its illusions thereafter.

"Your blood magic always had a price, I have chosen to pay it for you" "Kill me and then Merrill will finally be safe" does not sound like something a pride demon would say, rather the sort of thing the loving keeper would.

It would if it's trying to drive Merrill into despair and confusion. I also doubt Marethari truly loved Merrill, or at least certainly did not do so healthily.

[cjones91]

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Watching the scene again on youtube has only made this more obvious- a demon wouldn't have a peaceful conversation about how much she loved Merrill and wanted her to be safe before attacking her.

Of course it would. Origins has a demon having a peaceful conversation about how much it loves a templar. Caress in DA2 promises love to Aveline. Even if they're lying, demons can certainly talk calmly about love, if it suits their purposes.

A desire demon talked about love, as that was the desire it was manipulating in the Templar. 

When Marethari "comes back" and tries to decieve Merrill and Hawke it says "You are so much stronger than I imagined Da'len" - very specifically trying to decieve her using her pride. 

"Your blood magic always had a price, I have chosen to pay it for you" "Kill me and then Merrill will finally be safe" does not sound like something a pride demon would say, rather the sort of thing the loving keeper would. 

You seem to forget that demons can access the memories of those they possess.The pride demon could have easily said those things to make Merril suffer even more.

[Shadow Fox]

cjones91 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Watching the scene again on youtube has only made this more obvious- a demon wouldn't have a peaceful conversation about how much she loved Merrill and wanted her to be safe before attacking her.

Of course it would. Origins has a demon having a peaceful conversation about how much it loves a templar. Caress in DA2 promises love to Aveline. Even if they're lying, demons can certainly talk calmly about love, if it suits their purposes.

A desire demon talked about love, as that was the desire it was manipulating in the Templar. 

When Marethari "comes back" and tries to decieve Merrill and Hawke it says "You are so much stronger than I imagined Da'len" - very specifically trying to decieve her using her pride. 

"Your blood magic always had a price, I have chosen to pay it for you" "Kill me and then Merrill will finally be safe" does not sound like something a pride demon would say, rather the sort of thing the loving keeper would. 

You seem to forget that demons can access the memories of those they possess.The pride demon could have easily said those things to make Merril suffer even more.

Except convincing someone to kill it is kinda counter productive to it's goal of freedom isn't it?

[Ianamus]

cjones91 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Watching the scene again on youtube has only made this more obvious- a demon wouldn't have a peaceful conversation about how much she loved Merrill and wanted her to be safe before attacking her.

Of course it would. Origins has a demon having a peaceful conversation about how much it loves a templar. Caress in DA2 promises love to Aveline. Even if they're lying, demons can certainly talk calmly about love, if it suits their purposes.

A desire demon talked about love, as that was the desire it was manipulating in the Templar. 

When Marethari "comes back" and tries to decieve Merrill and Hawke it says "You are so much stronger than I imagined Da'len" - very specifically trying to decieve her using her pride. 

"Your blood magic always had a price, I have chosen to pay it for you" "Kill me and then Merrill will finally be safe" does not sound like something a pride demon would say, rather the sort of thing the loving keeper would. 

You seem to forget that demons can access the memories of those they possess.The pride demon could have easily said those things to make Merril suffer even more.

Pride demon's don't seem to do that though- as I said, when the demon definately was trying to decieve Merrill it used pride. Likewise, desire demons only ever seem to manipulate using desires. The only demoralizing demon I can remembre is a rage demon shouting in Origins, and a sloth demon trying to make its victims sleepy and give up fighting. They seem very limited to what they represent, I can't see a pride demon using emotional manipulation involving love. 

That combined with giving them information about how to kill it and in general acting much more like the keeper than "manipulative" possesed Marethari did (who didn't act like the Keeper at all) makes me 99% sure that it was Marethari speaking at the beginning, not the demon. 

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Except convincing someone to kill it is kinda counter productive to it's goal of freedom isn't it?

Exactly. It sounds much more like Marethari warning them that she needed to die for the demon to be gone. 

I see a lot of arguments as to why it could be the demon speaking, but no arguments as to why it isn't Marethari speaking. 

Modifié par EJ107, 29 octobre 2013 - 08:20 .

[cjones91]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Watching the scene again on youtube has only made this more obvious- a demon wouldn't have a peaceful conversation about how much she loved Merrill and wanted her to be safe before attacking her.

Of course it would. Origins has a demon having a peaceful conversation about how much it loves a templar. Caress in DA2 promises love to Aveline. Even if they're lying, demons can certainly talk calmly about love, if it suits their purposes.

A desire demon talked about love, as that was the desire it was manipulating in the Templar. 

When Marethari "comes back" and tries to decieve Merrill and Hawke it says "You are so much stronger than I imagined Da'len" - very specifically trying to decieve her using her pride. 

"Your blood magic always had a price, I have chosen to pay it for you" "Kill me and then Merrill will finally be safe" does not sound like something a pride demon would say, rather the sort of thing the loving keeper would. 

You seem to forget that demons can access the memories of those they possess.The pride demon could have easily said those things to make Merril suffer even more.

Except convincing someone to kill it is kinda counter productive to it's goal of freedom isn't it?

Not if the goal is to make Merril break down emotionally.

[Ianamus]

cjones91 wrote...

Not if the goal is to make Merril break down emotionally.

I don't see why a pride demon who's been trapped in a statue for centuries would focus on emotionally upsetting one person when its finally free- not when there are also three other people there who are prepared to kill it. 

Modifié par EJ107, 29 octobre 2013 - 08:24 .

[cjones91]

EJ107 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Watching the scene again on youtube has only made this more obvious- a demon wouldn't have a peaceful conversation about how much she loved Merrill and wanted her to be safe before attacking her.

Of course it would. Origins has a demon having a peaceful conversation about how much it loves a templar. Caress in DA2 promises love to Aveline. Even if they're lying, demons can certainly talk calmly about love, if it suits their purposes.

A desire demon talked about love, as that was the desire it was manipulating in the Templar. 

When Marethari "comes back" and tries to decieve Merrill and Hawke it says "You are so much stronger than I imagined Da'len" - very specifically trying to decieve her using her pride. 

"Your blood magic always had a price, I have chosen to pay it for you" "Kill me and then Merrill will finally be safe" does not sound like something a pride demon would say, rather the sort of thing the loving keeper would. 

You seem to forget that demons can access the memories of those they possess.The pride demon could have easily said those things to make Merril suffer even more.

Pride demon's don't seem to do that though- as I said, when the demon definately was trying to decieve Merrill it used pride. Likewise, desire demons only ever seem to manipulate using desires. The only demoralizing demon I can remembre is a rage demon in Origins, and a sloth demon trying to make its victims sleepy and give up fighting. They seem very limited to what they represent, I can't see a pride demon using emotional manipulation involving love. 

That combined with giving them information about how to kill it and in general acting much more like the keeper than "manipulative" possesed Marethari did (who didn't act like the Keeper at all) makes me 99% sure that it was Marethari speaking at the beginning, not the demon. 

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Except convincing someone to kill it is kinda counter productive to it's goal of freedom isn't it?

Exactly. It sounds much more like Marethari warning them that she needed to die for the demon to be gone. 

I see a lot of arguments as to why it could be the demon speaking, but no arguments as to why it isn't Marethari speaking. 

You are seriously underestimating the influece of a powerful demon like the one that possessed Marethari.Not all demons embody the vice that they are created from and so a powerful Pride Demon could take pleasure in making people suffer.

Modifié par cjones91, 29 octobre 2013 - 08:23 .

[Shadow Fox]

cjones91 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Watching the scene again on youtube has only made this more obvious- a demon wouldn't have a peaceful conversation about how much she loved Merrill and wanted her to be safe before attacking her.

Of course it would. Origins has a demon having a peaceful conversation about how much it loves a templar. Caress in DA2 promises love to Aveline. Even if they're lying, demons can certainly talk calmly about love, if it suits their purposes.

A desire demon talked about love, as that was the desire it was manipulating in the Templar. 

When Marethari "comes back" and tries to decieve Merrill and Hawke it says "You are so much stronger than I imagined Da'len" - very specifically trying to decieve her using her pride. 

"Your blood magic always had a price, I have chosen to pay it for you" "Kill me and then Merrill will finally be safe" does not sound like something a pride demon would say, rather the sort of thing the loving keeper would. 

You seem to forget that demons can access the memories of those they possess.The pride demon could have easily said those things to make Merril suffer even more.

Except convincing someone to kill it is kinda counter productive to it's goal of freedom isn't it?

Not if the goal is to make Merril break down emotionally.

Which it isn't.

[Xilizhra]

Pride demon's don't seem to do that though- as I said, when the demon definately was trying to decieve Merrill it used pride. Likewise, desire demons only ever seem to manipulate using desires. The only demoralizing demon I can remembre is a rage demon shouting in Origins, and a sloth demon trying to make its victims sleepy and give up fighting. They seem very limited to what they represent, I can't see a pride demon using emotional manipulation involving love.

Keep in mind that pride demons are the most intelligent and human of known demon types. And manipulating using pride is an attempt to swell pride; speaking of love like that was an attempt to break pride. The demon is still thinking in terms of pride.

That combined with giving them information about how to kill it and in general acting much more like the keeper than "manipulative" possesed Marethari did (who didn't act like the Keeper at all) makes me 99% sure that it was Marethari speaking at the beginning, not the demon.

It wasn't telling anything that Merrill didn't already know; it lost nothing by saying that. And demons can act quite well when they want to (again, there's no possible way Marethari wasn't possessed at the beginning of A New Path).

I see a lot of arguments as to why it could be the demon speaking, but no arguments as to why it isn't Marethari speaking.

Because Marethari wouldn't lure Merrill into a tiny cave to be killed, and would have warned the rest of the clan about what was going to happen if this had all been planned by her. She acts far more like she wants Merrill dead, if not by her than by the clan.

I don't see why a pride demon who's been trapped in a statue for centuries would focus on emotionally upsetting one person when its finally free- not when there are also three other people there who are prepared to kill it.

Well... perhaps it was part of the deal Marethari made, if her pride got the best of her to an extent that she really did want to kill Merrill. Perhaps Audacity just wanted revenge on Merrill for not submitting to it. Perhaps it saw Merrill as a loose end that had to be tied up.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 octobre 2013 - 08:25 .

[cjones91]

EJ107 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Not if the goal is to make Merril break down emotionally.

I donn't see why a pride demon who's been trapped in a statue for centuries would focus on emotionally upsetting one person when its finally free- not when there are also three other people there who are prepared to kill it. 

Because it's a freaking demon,they usually like spreading misery and pain and so on.I also believe the Pride Demon was bull****ting when it said that it would die if Marethari was killed

Modifié par cjones91, 29 octobre 2013 - 08:27 .

[cjones91]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Watching the scene again on youtube has only made this more obvious- a demon wouldn't have a peaceful conversation about how much she loved Merrill and wanted her to be safe before attacking her.

Of course it would. Origins has a demon having a peaceful conversation about how much it loves a templar. Caress in DA2 promises love to Aveline. Even if they're lying, demons can certainly talk calmly about love, if it suits their purposes.

A desire demon talked about love, as that was the desire it was manipulating in the Templar. 

When Marethari "comes back" and tries to decieve Merrill and Hawke it says "You are so much stronger than I imagined Da'len" - very specifically trying to decieve her using her pride. 

"Your blood magic always had a price, I have chosen to pay it for you" "Kill me and then Merrill will finally be safe" does not sound like something a pride demon would say, rather the sort of thing the loving keeper would. 

You seem to forget that demons can access the memories of those they possess.The pride demon could have easily said those things to make Merril suffer even more.

Except convincing someone to kill it is kinda counter productive to it's goal of freedom isn't it?

Not if the goal is to make Merril break down emotionally.

Which it isn't.

Well, how about you explain the fact that it was toying with Merril by showing illusions?

Modifié par cjones91, 29 octobre 2013 - 08:28 .

[Ianamus]

cjones91 wrote...

You are seriously underestimating the influece of a powerful demon like the one that possessed Marethari.Not all demons embody the vice that they are created from and so a powerful Pride Demon could take pleasure in making people suffer.

The demons goal is escaping and entering the world, not randomly making one person feel demoralized and unhappy- which won't help it much as there are three other people on standby to kill it. 

I still havent seen a single argument for why it isn't Marethari. I see a lot of "This is why it would make sense for the demon to say X/Y, even though that sounds for more like Marethari" but not a lot of "This is why it makes more sense for the demon to be saying X/Y, even though it sounds more like Marethari".

[Xilizhra]

The demons goal is escaping and entering the world, not randomly making one person feel demoralized and unhappy- which won't help it much as there are three other people on standby to kill it.

The demon already achieved its primary goal, escaping the statue. Whether it runs off into the mortal world or vanishes into the Fade, it's already won. Right now, well, I redirect you to my prior post. And again for your second paragraph.

[cjones91]

EJ107 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

You are seriously underestimating the influece of a powerful demon like the one that possessed Marethari.Not all demons embody the vice that they are created from and so a powerful Pride Demon could take pleasure in making people suffer.

The demons goal is escaping and entering the world, not randomly making one person feel demoralized and unhappy- which won't help it much as there are three other people on standby to kill it. 

I still havent seen a single argument for why it isn't Marethari. I see a lot of "This is why it would make sense for the demon to say X/Y, even though that sounds for more like Marethari" but not a lot of "This is why it makes more sense for the demon to be saying X/Y, even though it sounds more like Marethari".

Again, you are underetimating the influece a powerful demon could have on a person.They can access the host's memories and act like that person normally would.

[Shadow Fox]

cjones91 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Not if the goal is to make Merril break down emotionally.

I donn't see why a pride demon who's been trapped in a statue for centuries would focus on emotionally upsetting one person when its finally free- not when there are also three other people there who are prepared to kill it. 

Because it's a freaking demon,they usually like spreading misery and pain and so on.I also believe the Pride Demon was bull****ting when it said that it would die if Marethari was killed

The only demon that actually attempts to demoralize someone is a rage demon*which could simply be vindictiveness which would be an aspect of rage* all others simply appeal to the vice they represent.

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Because Marethari wouldn't lure Merrill into a tiny cave to be killed, and would have warned the rest of the clan about what was going to happen if this had all been planned by her. She acts far more like she wants Merrill dead, if not by her than by the clan.

Marethari wasn't possesed when she decided not to tell the clan about letting herself be possesed, that was just her knowing they would not physically let her. It's clearly stated by both the clan and by other NPC's that Marethari loves Merrill, which is why she sacrificed herself to save her. Hawke and two others are with Merrill and she knows they will be able to kill her, so she is not luring them to their death. It seems perfectly in-character.

Xilizhra wrote...

Keep in mind that pride demons are the most intelligent and human of known demon types. And manipulating using pride is an attempt to swell pride; speaking of love like that was an attempt to break pride. The demon is still thinking in terms of pride.

I don't see a demon saying "Kill me and the one I love can finally be safe". Ever. That is nothing to do with pride, but selflessness. Not to mention comments like "You knew your blood magic had a price" is outright the opposite of giving Merrill pride- its telling her that she was wrong. Something the demon doesnt do (It tires to influence Merrill by making her feel pride) but that Marethari does constantly.

Xilizhra wrote...

It wasn't telling anything that Merrill didn't already know; it lost nothing by saying that. And demons can act quite well when they want to (again, there's no possible way Marethari wasn't possessed at the beginning of A New Path).

The fact that Merrill doesnt immediately kill the keeper unless Hawke brings it up implies that if Marethari hadn't said it and Hawke hadn't picked up on it Merrill really would have fallen for it.

Xilizhra wrote...

Well... perhaps it was part of the deal Marethari made, if her pride got the best of her to an extent that she really did want to kill Merrill. Perhaps Audacity just wanted revenge on Merrill for not submitting to it. Perhaps it saw Merrill as a loose end that had to be tied up.

Marethari didn't make a deal- she sealed the demon inside herself so that it couldn't hurt Merrill, and knew that Hawke and two others were on their way to kill her. She probably didn't tell the clan because she knew they would try to stop her, forcefully if need be. 

And then, she retains control until Hawke arrives and she tells them what she has done, in the hopes Merrill will be more sensible in the future and give up blood magic and the Mirror. 

Modifié par EJ107, 29 octobre 2013 - 08:39 .

[Shadow Fox]

cjones91 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

You are seriously underestimating the influece of a powerful demon like the one that possessed Marethari.Not all demons embody the vice that they are created from and so a powerful Pride Demon could take pleasure in making people suffer.

The demons goal is escaping and entering the world, not randomly making one person feel demoralized and unhappy- which won't help it much as there are three other people on standby to kill it. 

I still havent seen a single argument for why it isn't Marethari. I see a lot of "This is why it would make sense for the demon to say X/Y, even though that sounds for more like Marethari" but not a lot of "This is why it makes more sense for the demon to be saying X/Y, even though it sounds more like Marethari".

Again, you are underetimating the influece a powerful demon could have on a person.They can access the host's memories and act like that person normally would.

The problem with your theory is it only works if Audacity is a  complete moron.

[ScarMK]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
 problem with your theory is it only works if Audacity is a  complete moron.

Well...it WAS in Da2.  So that's not exactly an unreasonable assumption.

[Xilizhra]

Marethari wasn't possesed when she decided not to tell the clan about letting herself be possesed, that was just her being stupid. It's clearly stated by both the clan and by other NPC's that Marethari loves Merrill, which is why she sacrificed herself to save her.

The clan hates her, and their view of love seems a tad skewed. And why would Marethari not tell the clan?

I don't see a demon saying "Kill me and the one I love can finally be safe". Ever. That is nothing to do with pride, but selflessness. Not to mention comments like "You knew your blood magic had a price" is outright the opposite of giving Merrill pride- its telling her that she was wrong. Something the demon doesnt do (It tires to influence Merrill by making her feel pride) but that Marethari does constantly.

The point is that the demon is doing so because it doesn't think Merrill can; it wants to pummel Merrill with what it sees as her lack of selflessness, not extoll it. It only tries to raise Merrill's pride when it's lost the battle; beforehand, it wants to break Merrill's pride, establishing itself as superior.

The fact that Merrill doesnt immediately kill the keeper unless Hawke brings it up implies that if Marethari hadn't said it and Hawke hadn't picked up on it shows that Merrill really didn't seem to know, or care, at least.

Merrill also tells Hawke, and she was just desperate in that situation.

Marethari didn't make a deal- she sealed the demon inside herself so that it couldn't hurt Merrill, and knew that Hawke and three others were on their way to kill her. She probably didn't tell the clan because she knew they would try to stop her, forcefully if need be.

Given that, again, you only have an abomination's word on that note, I find it a little bit doubtful. We don't really know why Marethari was possessed, only that she was, and that she wanted Merrill to think everything was her fault. And that she did nothing to inform the clan and tried to put Merrill in the single most dangerous spot possible.

And then, she retains control until Hawke arrives and she tells them what she has done, in the hopes Merrill will be more sensible in the future and give up blood magic and the Mirror.

Except she doesn't seem to be struggling at all at the beginning of the quest, even though she's already possessed. Why would she suddenly put on some voice of struggle when she didn't need to unless it was the demon's doing?
Also, Merrill never does give up blood magic, so **** Marethari.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 octobre 2013 - 08:41 .

[Ianamus]

ScarMK wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
 problem with your theory is it only works if Audacity is a  complete moron.

Well...it WAS in Da2.  So that's not exactly an unreasonable assumption.

Trying to escape via the Eluvian is a actually a very clever plan, and much more befitting of a powerful pride demon than "I will pretend to be Marethari and tell you that I'm a demon and that you need to kill me, to make one of you sad"

Modifié par EJ107, 29 octobre 2013 - 08:41 .

[Xilizhra]

EJ107 wrote...

ScarMK wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
 problem with your theory is it only works if Audacity is a  complete moron.

Well...it WAS in Da2.  So that's not exactly an unreasonable assumption.

Trying to escape via the Eluvian is a actually a very clever plan, and much more befitting of a powerful pride demon than "I will pretend to be Marethari and tell you that I'm a demon and that you need to kill me, to make one of you sad"

Audacity's already escaped by that point. By now, it loses nothing by trying to kill Merrill.

[Shadow Fox]

Xilizhra wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

ScarMK wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
 problem with your theory is it only works if Audacity is a  complete moron.

Well...it WAS in Da2.  So that's not exactly an unreasonable assumption.

Trying to escape via the Eluvian is a actually a very clever plan, and much more befitting of a powerful pride demon than "I will pretend to be Marethari and tell you that I'm a demon and that you need to kill me, to make one of you sad"

Audacity's already escaped by that point. By now, it loses nothing by trying to kill Merrill.

Except it's freedom.

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Marethari wasn't possesed when she decided not to tell the clan about letting herself be possesed, that was just her being stupid. It's clearly stated by both the clan and by other NPC's that Marethari loves Merrill, which is why she sacrificed herself to save her.

The clan hates her, and their view of love seems a tad skewed. And why would Marethari not tell the clan?

As I said, because the clan would almost certainly not physically let her go to the top of the mountain if they knew she intended to sacrifice herself for Merrill. And she was not  possesed when she made the decision not to tell them- that was before she even went there. 

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't see a demon saying "Kill me and the one I love can finally be safe". Ever. That is nothing to do with pride, but selflessness. Not to mention comments like "You knew your blood magic had a price" is outright the opposite of giving Merrill pride- its telling her that she was wrong. Something the demon doesnt do (It tires to influence Merrill by making her feel pride) but that Marethari does constantly.

The point is that the demon is doing so because it doesn't think Merrill can; it wants to pummel Merrill with what it sees as her lack of selflessness, not extoll it. It only tries to raise Merrill's pride when it's lost the battle; beforehand, it wants to break Merrill's pride, establishing itself as superior.

"Kill me and Merrill will finally be safe" isn't even demorlaizing- its encouraging Hawke and the others to protect Merrill. Emotional manipulation or not, a demon wouldnt don a cheerleading costume and go "Kill me to help your friend!". That was clearly Marethari- esecially considering it was her last words. She was consoling herself that the woman she considered her daughter would be safe. 

Xilizhra wrote...

The fact that Merrill doesnt immediately kill the keeper unless Hawke brings it up implies that if Marethari hadn't said it and Hawke hadn't picked up on it shows that Merrill really didn't seem to know, or care, at least.

Merrill also tells Hawke, and she was just desperate in that situation.

The demon doesn't know that Hawke and Merrill already know this- as shown when it does try to trick them into letting it escape. It would not have told them that it needed to die if it later indended to trick them that it didn't need to die. Period. 

Xilizhra wrote...

Marethari didn't make a deal- she sealed the demon inside herself so that it couldn't hurt Merrill, and knew that Hawke and three others were on their way to kill her. She probably didn't tell the clan because she knew they would try to stop her, forcefully if need be.

Given that, again, you only have an abomination's word on that note, I find it a little bit doubtful. We don't really know why Marethari was possessed, only that she was, and that she wanted Merrill to think everything was her fault. And that she did nothing to inform the clan and tried to put Merrill in the single most dangerous spot possible.

It was very clear Marethari let herself be possed. There is no other explanation as to why she was magically possesed just as she knew Merrill was going to meet with the demon, and the explanation given makes the most sense. The writers very clearly intended for this to be what happened. 

Xilizhra wrote...

And then, she retains control until Hawke arrives and she tells them what she has done, in the hopes Merrill will be more sensible in the future and give up blood magic and the Mirror.

Except she doesn't seem to be struggling at all at the beginning of the quest, even though she's already possessed. Why would she suddenly put on some voice of struggle when she didn't need to unless it was the demon's doing?
Also, Merrill never does give up blood magic, so **** Marethari.

Anders is possesed and manages to hold Vengence back without visibly struggling.

Also, Merrill is implied to give up blood magic if on a rivalry path, or at least the Eluvian. 

Modifié par EJ107, 29 octobre 2013 - 08:50 .

[Ianamus]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

ScarMK wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
 problem with your theory is it only works if Audacity is a  complete moron.

Well...it WAS in Da2.  So that's not exactly an unreasonable assumption.

Trying to escape via the Eluvian is a actually a very clever plan, and much more befitting of a powerful pride demon than "I will pretend to be Marethari and tell you that I'm a demon and that you need to kill me, to make one of you sad"

Audacity's already escaped by that point. By now, it loses nothing by trying to kill Merrill.

Except it's freedom.

And it's life on Thedas. 

[Xilizhra]

As I said, because the clan would almost certainly not physically let her go to the top of the mountain if they knew she intended to sacrifice herself for Merrill. And she was not possesed when she made the decision not to tell them- that was before she even went there.

For whatever reason she made said choice. And going to the top of the mountain was idiotic if she wanted Merrill to survive anyway.

"Kill me and Merrill will finally be safe" isn't even demorlaizing- its encouraging Hawke and the others to protect Merrill. Emotional manipulation or no, a demon wouldnt don a cheerleading costume and go "Kill me to help your friend!"

"Kill your mother because this was all your fault."

The demon doesn't know that Hawke and Merrill already know this- as shown when it does try to trick them into letting it escape. It would not have told them that it needed to die if it later indended to trick them that it didn't need to die. Period.

It has Marethari's memories, knows what Merrill has been taught, and can probably guess at Hawke's knowledge. It may very well have done just that.

Anders is possesed and manages to hold Vengence back without visibly struggling.

Anders and Justice rarely clash in motivation (the only time I recall it happening is with Ella), and their relationship is much more equal than that of the standard abomination.

Also, Merrill is implied to give up blood magic if on a rivalry path, or at least the Eluvian.

Definitely not blood magic.

Except it's freedom.

If the demon wanted to stay in the mortal world more than Merrill's death, it wouldn't even need to fight. Just run away, shapeshift back down into Marethari's body, possibly seal Pride's End with the same barrier it had up earlier, and say "trolololololol."