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The *I support the Templars* Thread V2


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#1476
ianvillan

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
Cullen is just a few steps away from being Meredith himself, he is just smarter about showing his hatred in public.

If Cullen had taken over Meredith's position the same things would of happened but with no red lyrium to blame for his actions.


HAHAHAHA.. yeah, your understanding of lore and character is fascinatingly wrong.

Not to mention I like how you use your headcanon future predictions as some kind of proof.



What lore is their that shows that Cullen would be tolerant of mages and not willing to do the right of annulment, Cullen has made his views of the mages clear how he does not think of them as human or should be tolerated.

I will forget that this is the same Cullen who was written to turn into a mage serial killer and is insane at the end of DAO, It is also the same Cullen that would accept a Templar who could be an abomination but would kill a mage and their associates if their was even a hint they might be possessed.

Can you show how Cullen would be different than Meredith and not go down the same path.

If Cullen is not a member of the red Templars in DAI after he was tortured by blood mages in DAO and all that happened in DA2 and with his opinion of mages then I would not believe that his character is believable . 

#1477
EmperorSahlertz

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Well.. There is that entire part where Cullen isn't willing to fulfill the Annulment... That seemed to speak pretty much in favor of Cullen not being willing to fulfill the Annulment...

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 30 octobre 2013 - 11:37 .


#1478
Lotion Soronarr

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TheKomandorShepard wrote...
Truth nothing more if you refuse belive in that it is your problem and that was in case.


Posted Image

You are the Stormtrooper
The target is the truth.

#1479
MisterJB

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ianvillan wrote...
What lore is their that shows that Cullen would be tolerant of mages and not willing to do the right of annulment, Cullen has made his views of the mages clear how he does not think of them as human or should be tolerated.

I will forget that this is the same Cullen who was written to turn into a mage serial killer and is insane at the end of DAO, It is also the same Cullen that would accept a Templar who could be an abomination but would kill a mage and their associates if their was even a hint they might be possessed.

Can you show how Cullen would be different than Meredith and not go down the same path.

If Cullen is not a member of the red Templars in DAI after he was tortured by blood mages in DAO and all that happened in DA2 and with his opinion of mages then I would not believe that his character is believable . 

You're the one who made the claim, the burden of proof falls on your, not on us.

Let's see, Cullen is uncertain when Meredith calls for the Right of Annulment; Cullen accepts Alain and his cohorts back in the Circle and pleads on their behalf despite them being blood mages lead by an Abomination; Cullen orders the Templars under him to spare surrendering mages during the ROA; never in the entire DA franchise have we ever seen or heard of Cullen abusing a single mage.

But he speaks the truth; that mages have incredible destructive power and that their treatment should take this into account; and suddenly he is a villain.

Just out of curiosity, do you happen to have Templar you like?

Modifié par MisterJB, 30 octobre 2013 - 11:39 .


#1480
TheKomandorShepard

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
Truth nothing more if you refuse belive in that it is your problem and that was in case.


Posted Image

You are the Stormtrooper
The target is the truth.


thats from you? irony :P

#1481
MisterJB

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well.. There is that entire part where Cullen isn't willing to fulfill the Annulment... That seemed to speak pretty much in favor of Cullen not being willing to fulfill the Annulment...



Cullen in Dragon Age II:

"Meredith: And what if they are pretending innocence to avoid punishment? Will you be willing to take that risk?
Cullen; Yes...I believe that is what being a Templar is all about."

Cullen according to the forums:
"It is also the same Cullen that would accept a Templar who could be an abomination but would kill a mage and their associates if their was even a hint they might be possessed."

#1482
Lotion Soronarr

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ianvillan wrote...

What lore is their that shows that Cullen would be tolerant of mages and not willing to do the right of annulment, Cullen has made his views of the mages clear how he does not think of them as human or should be tolerated.


You are being too literal with his words, insted of going with the intent.
Even when his behaviour CLEARLY shows otherwise.


I will forget that this is the same Cullen who was written to turn into a mage serial killer and is insane at the end of DAO, It is also the same Cullen that would accept a Templar who could be an abomination but would kill a mage and their associates if their was even a hint they might be possessed.


The serial killer thing never happened, thus it cannot be used as an argument.
And he wasn't initally willing, Hawke talked him into it. And that tempalr woudl still be a insignificant threat compared to an abominations AND was under survailance.

Can you show how Cullen would be different than Meredith and not go down the same path.


Because he at no point shown he would go down the same path.
Also, he doesnt' have a maddness-inducing lyrium sword.


If Cullen is not a member of the red Templars in DAI after he was tortured by blood mages in DAO and all that happened in DA2 and with his opinion of mages then I would not believe that his character is believable . 


I don't belive you are believable.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 30 octobre 2013 - 01:37 .


#1483
Xilizhra

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well.. There is that entire part where Cullen isn't willing to fulfill the Annulment... That seemed to speak pretty much in favor of Cullen not being willing to fulfill the Annulment...

He's perfectly willing. He kills everyone except those who surrender instantly, and those will be made Tranquil later on anyway.

#1484
Star fury

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MisterJB wrote...

Cullen in Dragon Age II:

"Meredith: And what if they are pretending innocence to avoid punishment? Will you be willing to take that risk?
Cullen; Yes...I believe that is what being a Templar is all about."

Cullen according to the forums:
"It is also the same Cullen that would accept a Templar who could be an abomination but would kill a mage and their associates if their was even a hint they might be possessed."


It's correct observation about DA:O Cullen. 

#1485
MisterJB

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Yeah, he had just spent weeks being physically and mentally tortured by mages. Give the man a break.

#1486
ianvillan

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MisterJB wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
What lore is their that shows that Cullen would be tolerant of mages and not willing to do the right of annulment, Cullen has made his views of the mages clear how he does not think of them as human or should be tolerated.

I will forget that this is the same Cullen who was written to turn into a mage serial killer and is insane at the end of DAO, It is also the same Cullen that would accept a Templar who could be an abomination but would kill a mage and their associates if their was even a hint they might be possessed.

Can you show how Cullen would be different than Meredith and not go down the same path.

If Cullen is not a member of the red Templars in DAI after he was tortured by blood mages in DAO and all that happened in DA2 and with his opinion of mages then I would not believe that his character is believable . 

You're the one who made the claim, the burden of proof falls on your, not on us.

Let's see, Cullen is uncertain when Meredith calls for the Right of Annulment; Cullen accepts Alain and his cohorts back in the Circle and pleads on their behalf despite them being blood mages lead by an Abomination; Cullen orders the Templars under him to spare surrendering mages during the ROA; never in the entire DA franchise have we ever seen or heard of Cullen abusing a single mage.

But he speaks the truth; that mages have incredible destructive power and that their treatment should take this into account; and suddenly he is a villain.

Just out of curiosity, do you happen to have Templar you like?



Here are some quotes from Cullen in DA2

(To Hawke, Enemies Among Us, Act I) "I was at the Circle Tower in Ferelden during the Blight. I saw first hand how templar's trust and leniency can be rewarded. I still have nightmares of Uldred's depravities."

(To Hawke, Enemies Among Us, Act I) "Mages cannot be treated like people. They are not like you and me. They are weapons. They have the power to light a city on fire in a fit of pique."

(To Hawke about Meredith, Act I) "She is not an easy taskmaster. But it is not an easy task. I would not have liked her when I was younger. I thought mages deserved a softer touch. But Meredith is never fooled by a sweet face. She always sees the demon behind it."

(To Hawke, Act I) "It used to be that templars were welcomed wherever they went—for defending people from dark magics. Now the townsfolk are as likely to slam their doors as offer us a bed. The image of the poor, chained apprentice is a powerful one. And one the mages are more than willing to exploit."

(To Hawke about the Tranquil Solution after Dissent, Act II) "It's true there has been some discussion of the idea. But as you can see, it has gone no further than that. The Harrowing has served us well enough for centuries. It will be up to mages themselves whether they push us to more stringent measures."

(Hawke asks him, if he approves of Ser Alrik's plan after Dissent, Act II) "The Tranquil ritual was created as a mercy so that mages need not be killed out of hand for a threat they might pose. There is an argument to be made for applying it more widely. But the mages have made it clear they view the ritual as no better than death. They want no controls on them at all."

The codex entry about Cullen says
Knight-Captain Cullen was oneof the few templars who survived the incident at the Circle of Magi in Ferelden. The possessed blood mage Uldred took over the tower, and in his madness, he filled it with summoned demons and abominations. Cullen was imprisoned, tortured, and forced to watch the slaughter of his fellow templars. The ordeal shook him, and he emerged from it convinced that even templars fail to see how dangerous mages can be.
After Cullen returned to his duties, it became clear that he would go to any lengths to enforce the Chantry's rule. His zeal troubled Knight-Commander Greagoir, who feared it unwise to let Cullen watch over the men and women he deemed responsible for his torment.
Greagoir sent Cullen to serve under Knight-commander Meredith in Kirkwall, hoping time away would calm him, and Meredith found Cullen's view of mages similar to her own. Of her company, only Cullen had seen mages' potentially terrifying power first hand, and she believed he could influence the other templars' views. Consequently, Cullen rose quickly through the ranks to become knight-captain and Meredith's second-in-command.

Cullen is not the tolerant true Templar you would have us believe.

#1487
Star fury

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MisterJB wrote...

Yeah, he had just spent weeks being physically and mentally tortured by mages. Give the man a break.


That's exactly what I wrote earlier.

#1488
MisterJB

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ianvillan wrote...
Cullen is not the tolerant true Templar you would have us believe.

And where exactly is the "intolerance" with anything of what you posted? All I see is Cullen speakngsome hard truths.

I can redirect you to moments where he pardoned clearly guilty mages. Where are your moments of Cullen condemning clearly innocent mages?
Cullen beating mages; Cullen raping mages; can you find any instances of him doing anything even remotely like this?

No, you can't. Therefore, all the basis you have for claiming Cullen is some sort of abusive Templar are some quotes where all Cullen is doing is reaffirming obvious truths.
The only quote you posted that might support your argument is this one:
"(To Hawke about Meredith, Act I) "She is not an easy taskmaster. But it is not an easy task. I would not have liked her when I was younger. I thought mages deserved a softer touch. But Meredith is never fooled by a sweet face.
She always sees the demon behind it." "

Since your original argument was that Cullen is like Meredith. Except by that Act III he starts expressing some doubts regarding her and eventually stops her when her madness becomes obvious.
In Act I, Meredith didn't have the Red Lyrum and she was a fine Templar before she acquired it.

#1489
Xilizhra

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And where exactly is the "intolerance" with anything of what you posted? All I see is Cullen speakngsome hard truths.

Well, he's accommodating the idea of the Tranquil Solution and being incredibly disingenuous about how mages reasonably see it. Not all he says is truthful in any case.

I can redirect you to moments where he pardoned clearly guilty mages. Where are your moments of Cullen condemning clearly innocent mages?

Murdering mages only trying to defend themselves in the Annulment... unless he was just hanging back and letting everyone else do it, which is really no better.

#1490
Star fury

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ianvillan wrote...

(To Hawke, Act I) "It used to be that templars were welcomed wherever they went—for defending people from dark magics. Now the townsfolk are as likely to slam their doors as offer us a bed. The image of the poor, chained apprentice is a powerful one. And one the mages are more than willing to exploit." 


LMAO. Bioware were concerned that majority supported mages in the Broken Circle quest and they tried to make a more balanced picture. Then they duly went overboard. 

#1491
ianvillan

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MisterJB wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
Cullen is not the tolerant true Templar you would have us believe.

And where exactly is the "intolerance" with anything of what you posted? All I see is Cullen speakngsome hard truths.

I can redirect you to moments where he pardoned clearly guilty mages. Where are your moments of Cullen condemning clearly innocent mages?
Cullen beating mages; Cullen raping mages; can you find any instances of him doing anything even remotely like this?

No, you can't. Therefore, all the basis you have for claiming Cullen is some sort of abusive Templar are some quotes where all Cullen is doing is reaffirming obvious truths.
The only quote you posted that might support your argument is this one:
"(To Hawke about Meredith, Act I) "She is not an easy taskmaster. But it is not an easy task. I would not have liked her when I was younger. I thought mages deserved a softer touch. But Meredith is never fooled by a sweet face.
She always sees the demon behind it." "

Since your original argument was that Cullen is like Meredith. Except by that Act III he starts expressing some doubts regarding her and eventually stops her when her madness becomes obvious.
In Act I, Meredith didn't have the Red Lyrum and she was a fine Templar before she acquired it.



I have never said he was abusive to mages but he is like Meredith and would like all mages to be made tranquil or be killed which is not what a Templar is supposed to be about.

If Cullen did replace Meredith in act 2 the same events would of occurred with Cullen in charge, and an argument could be made that the reason he turned against Meredith was not for the mages but because he knew it could make the Templars look bad and give more sympathy to the mages. 

#1492
Star fury

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MisterJB wrote...

And where exactly is the "intolerance" with anything of what you posted? All I see is Cullen speakngsome hard truths.


(To Hawke, Enemies Among Us, Act I) "Mages cannot be treated like people. They are not like you and me. They are weapons. They have the power to light a city on fire in a fit of pique." 

This line is actually terrifying and disgusting. It is on par with the "Tranquil solution". 

#1493
Br3admax

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Xilizhra wrote...

And where exactly is the "intolerance" with anything of what you posted? All I see is Cullen speakngsome hard truths.

Well, he's accommodating the idea of the Tranquil Solution and being incredibly disingenuous about how mages reasonably see it. Not all he says is truthful in any case.

The Tranquil Solution is not about intolerance, and I think the rest of this is really just opinion. Like most of these arguments. 

I can redirect you to moments where he pardoned clearly guilty mages. Where are your moments of Cullen condemning clearly innocent mages?

Murdering mages only trying to defend themselves in the Annulment... unless he was just hanging back and letting everyone else do it, which is really no better.

No. He actually decides not to kill the mages who surrender instead of trying to blow up people, second he didn't condem anyone Meredith did. I don't know where your sense of duty comes from, but life isn't about rainbows and roses. Maybe you should realise that the people who do what they have to, are the reason that you get to sit behind a keyboard and complain about them doing it. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 30 octobre 2013 - 12:25 .


#1494
Br3admax

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Star fury wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

And where exactly is the "intolerance" with anything of what you posted? All I see is Cullen speakngsome hard truths.


(To Hawke, Enemies Among Us, Act I) "Mages cannot be treated like people. They are not like you and me. They are weapons. They have the power to light a city on fire in a fit of pique." 

This line is actually terrifying and disgusting. It is on par with the "Tranquil solution". 

Again, that is not really about intolerance. Intolerance to being blown up maybe, but it is more about the dangers than them being actual mages. 

#1495
Xilizhra

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No. He actually decides not to kill the mages who surrender instead of trying to blow up people, second he didn't condem anyone Meredith did. I don't know where your sense of duty comes from, but life isn't about rainbows and roses. Maybe you should realise that the people who do what they have to, are the reason that you get yo sit behind a keyboard and complain about them doing it.

He asks not to kill them, but will let it happen if Hawke doesn't back him up... and since Hawke isn't there in the mage ending, he probably does kill them. And perhaps you should remember that "people who do what they have to do" include those people who made it very clear that following orders was not an excuse for atrocity.

#1496
LOLandStuff

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Cullen yapping about mages not being people and other obvious concerns: Not ok.
Anders blowing up a Chantry: Totally ok.

#1497
ianvillan

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Xilizhra wrote...


No. He actually decides not to kill the mages who surrender instead of trying to blow up people, second he didn't condem anyone Meredith did. I don't know where your sense of duty comes from, but life isn't about rainbows and roses. Maybe you should realise that the people who do what they have to, are the reason that you get yo sit behind a keyboard and complain about them doing it.

He asks not to kill them, but will let it happen if Hawke doesn't back him up... and since Hawke isn't there in the mage ending, he probably does kill them. And perhaps you should remember that "people who do what they have to do" include those people who made it very clear that following orders was not an excuse for atrocity.



And the same people used the justification that the people were not Human when they did their crimes.

#1498
MisterJB

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[quote]ianvillan wrote...
I have never said he was abusive to mages but he is like Meredith and would like all mages to be made tranquil or be killed which is not what a Templar is supposed to be about.

If Cullen did replace Meredith in act 2 the same events would of occurred with Cullen in charge,[/quote]
Neither Cullen nor Pre-RL Meredith were ever in favor of killing or Tranquilizing all mages. Meredith specifically refused that suggestion.
All that Cullen says is that if the Rite of Tranquility begins being more commonly used, it will be the mages who will have pushed the Templars into it which is not so different from the common pro-mage argument that if mages do something bad, it's the Templar's fault.
Plus, given that Cullen expresses doubt regading the ROA and even spares mages who surrender; which goes against the principle of the ROA which is to kill every mage; it becomes obvious he wouldn't have called for it based purely on Anders' actions.
 
[quote]and an argument could be made that the reason he turned against Meredith was not for the mages but Which, even if true; it isn't; wouldn't change the fact he did stand up to her.
And if he had those considerations in mind, he obviously wouldn't have called for the ROA in the first place.

#1499
Star fury

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LOLandStuff wrote...

Cullen yapping about mages not being people and other obvious concerns: Not ok.
Anders blowing up a Chantry: Totally ok.


Yeah, because people here wrote exactly that. Oh crap, they didn't.

#1500
Br3admax

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Xilizhra wrote...

No. He actually decides not to kill the mages who surrender instead of trying to blow up people, second he didn't condem anyone Meredith did. I don't know where your sense of duty comes from, but life isn't about rainbows and roses. Maybe you should realise that the people who do what they have to, are the reason that you get yo sit behind a keyboard and complain about them doing it.

He asks not to kill them, but will let it happen if Hawke doesn't back him up... and since Hawke isn't there in the mage ending, he probably does kill them. And perhaps you should remember that "people who do what they have to do" include those people who made it very clear that following orders was not an excuse for atrocity.

In the mage ending, they are killed by Orsino, not the Templars. For someone who probably always picks that side, you should know this. Pretty much all of the mages fallback to where Hawke is. Second, it really doesn't. If you honestly believe that most people are willing to stand up to atrocities instead of defending their countries and ways of life, you really don't know anything about humanity.