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[Xilizhra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

What Cullen said was he views tranquillity as a mercy and that their is an argument to apply it more widely, but because the mages have made it clear they view the ritual as no better than death that the mages want no controls on them at all.

So because the mages don't want the be killed it means that they don't want controls on them, Cullen views using a right which he admits the mages view as a death sentence as a form of control of the mages. 

Nope. You lack reading comprehension. It is 4 separate statements you combined into 1.

1) Tranquility was designed as a mercy
2) There are argument for more wide-spread use, but Harrowing has worked well, so more tranquility won't be used unless the amges push the tempalrs.
3) Mages don't view tranquility as a mercy
4) mages don't want any restriction.

You know, you don't have to spam. You can just gather all the quotes you want to respond to into one post.

[ianvillan]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well in that case we won't have to disqualify a single Templar, since annulments aren't genocide.

Obliteration of a biological grouping within a nation, in whole or in part? I rather think it is.

Nope.
An Annulment is "catastrophy prevention". It is done because the Circle is deemed beyond saving and when itpresents a grave danger for everyone else.
Hance, mages aren't killed as an act of hate or intolerance because they are a racial group. They are killed becasue they present a danger to everyone else.

If you nuked a town of Redwood filled with people infected with deadly, uncurable virus, it's not genocide. You didn't kill them because they are redwoodians. You killed them because they were dangerous. And as horrible an action is it is, one cannot really argue against the necessity.

But if you killed any people that had escaped the town without checking they might be infected because a few people in the town you nuked were infected would be wrong.

So if a bus of passengers escaped the town and said they got out before the infection reached them you would just blow the bus up without checking or quarantining them and say they could of been infected but the police men in the town are ok to leave because they are the same as us.

[MisterJB]

ianvillan wrote...
If Anders said the right of tranquillity was created because the Templars feared mages and wished to punish them would that be a historical fact..

History supports two different points of view.
Plus, no one denies mages are feared.

Cullen never said that mages don't want restrictions on them about Uldred or Fiona or even Anders manifesto, he states that the mages view the right of tranquillity as death and because they view it as death it should not be used so it means mages don't want to be controlled.

What he said was that mages don't want restrictions which is the truth. He is right and there is no reason to assume he is referring specificaly to their opposition ot the Rite rather than other things he witnessed like Uldred's rebellion.

Cullen says mages are not human are you saying he does not agree with that statement just because some other Templars might also say it.

Cullen never said mages are not human; what he said is that they are not like other humans which is the truth.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Mages cannot be threated the same as everyone else.
It's is a hard truth that mages don't want to hear.

Then what should have been said was "mages have to be treated as different people."

Or "mages cannot be treated as regular people". The "regular" can be dropped as it is assumed, as it is often done in coversation.
Language is an intricate matter and taking everything literaly is a mistake.
One that oyu seem to doo all too readily when it suits you.

And the concept is fiendish, corrupt, and not used correctly unless there are no innocent mages left at all.

In a perfect world, maybe.
Innocence is irrelevant b.t.w. Possesion and danger of abomintations are.

The templars were committing murder, not protecting themselves.

They were protecting everyone in the city (except mages) by removing the source of abominations (mages).
That is the whole point of annulment.
While I personally don't agree with Meredith that the Circle was beyond saving, I can't blame her for thinking that, because Kirkwall was really frakked up.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ianvillan wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Pft. You got nothing to support you but your fantasies.

An argument could be made? Well, and argument could be made for anything.

Maybe the reason you saved that kitten from the tree isn't compassion, but rather you wanted to bring her home so you could torture it!
You are a terrible monster ian. Hell, even your name spells villan.
What more proof do we need?
GUILTY!

What arguments is there that if Cullen replaced Meredith in act 2 he would be any different. I have provided his quotes where he views mages as not human and how he was unstable and even Greagoir thought he would be a danger to mages, he supported Meredith so much he was rapidly promoted to her second in command.

You have provided NOTHING, becuase notihing you provided means what you think it means.

Your "proof" works better as defense material than persecution material.:happy:

[ianvillan]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

What Cullen said was he views tranquillity as a mercy and that their is an argument to apply it more widely, but because the mages have made it clear they view the ritual as no better than death that the mages want no controls on them at all.

So because the mages don't want the be killed it means that they don't want controls on them, Cullen views using a right which he admits the mages view as a death sentence as a form of control of the mages. 

Nope. You lack reading comprehension. It is 4 separate statements you combined into 1.

1) Tranquility was designed as a mercy
2) There are argument for more wide-spread use, but Harrowing has worked well, so more tranquility won't be used unless the amges push the tempalrs.
3) Mages don't view tranquility as a mercy
4) mages don't want any restriction.

1)Where is it said it was designed as a mercy.

2) You see nothing wrong with saying that the harrowing works so well but if the mages push us we will do a wide spread right of tranquillity. So the mages push for the abuses to stop and have more rights so your answer is to tranquilise them all.

3) I don't blame them.

4) some not all mages don't want any restrictions, some mages believe in the circle system, some want to visit there families or not have the Templars kill them when they feel like it, some want to have an equal system with the Templars. The mages have left the circles because a majority were not happy that the Templars were not willing to change the system and were fed up with the Templars doing what they want with no punishment.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ianvillan wrote...
But if you killed any people that had escaped the town without checking they might be infected because a few people in the town you nuked were infected would be wrong.

So if a bus of passengers escaped the town and said they got out before the infection reached them you would just blow the bus up without checking or quarantining them and say they could of been infected but the police men in the town are ok to leave because they are the same as us.

And how would you check them? Possesion cannot be detected by any known means.
In the above scenario, there is no way to detect the virus.
And there is no effective "quarantene" other then being locked up in a Circle - and even that is not safe.

[Xilizhra]

And how would you check them? Possesion cannot be detected by any known means.

Now this is an outright lie. Both Merrill and Anders have ways that work.

[ianvillan]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You have provided NOTHING, becuase notihing you provided means what you think it means.

Your "proof" works better as defense material than persecution material.:happy:

I think the quotes I provided show Cullen is such an extreme Templar that Greagoir felt he should not be left to look after mages and sent him away to try and calm him down.
I think that Cullen liked Merediths stance and shared her views and rose in the ranks quickly because of that and that he would of gone down the same path as Meredith did.

So what do you think these quotes from Cullen mean then.

(To Hawke, Enemies Among Us, Act I) "I was at the Circle Tower in Ferelden during the Blight. I saw first hand how templar's trust and leniency can be rewarded. I still have nightmares of Uldred's depravities."

(To Hawke, Enemies Among Us, Act I) "Mages cannot be treated like people. They are not like you and me. They are weapons. They have the power to light a city on fire in a fit of pique."

(To Hawke about Meredith, Act I) "She is not an easy taskmaster. But it is not an easy task. I would not have liked her when I was younger. I thought mages deserved a softer touch. But Meredith is never fooled by a sweet face. She always sees the demon behind it."

(To Hawke, Act I) "It used to be that templars were welcomed wherever they went—for defending people from dark magics. Now the townsfolk are as likely to slam their doors as offer us a bed. The image of the poor, chained apprentice is a powerful one. And one the mages are more than willing to exploit."

(To Hawke about the Tranquil Solution after Dissent, Act II) "It's true there has been some discussion of the idea. But as you can see, it has gone no further than that. The Harrowing has served us well enough for centuries. It will be up to mages themselves whether they push us to more stringent measures."

(Hawke asks him, if he approves of Ser Alrik's plan after Dissent, Act II) "The Tranquil ritual was created as a mercy so that mages need not be killed out of hand for a threat they might pose. There is an argument to be made for applying it more widely. But the mages have made it clear they view the ritual as no better than death. They want no controls on them at all."

The codex entry about Cullen says
Knight-Captain Cullen was oneof the few templars who survived the incident at the Circle of Magi in Ferelden. The possessed blood mage Uldred took over the tower, and in his madness, he filled it with summoned demons and abominations. Cullen was imprisoned, tortured, and forced to watch the slaughter of his fellow templars. The ordeal shook him, and he emerged from it convinced that even templars fail to see how dangerous mages can be.
After Cullen returned to his duties, it became clear that he would go to any lengths to enforce the Chantry's rule. His zeal troubled Knight-Commander Greagoir, who feared it unwise to let Cullen watch over the men and women he deemed responsible for his torment.
Greagoir sent Cullen to serve under Knight-commander Meredith in Kirkwall, hoping time away would calm him, and Meredith found Cullen's view of mages similar to her own. Of her company, only Cullen had seen mages' potentially terrifying power first hand, and she believed he could influence the other templars' views. Consequently, Cullen rose quickly through the ranks to become knight-captain and Meredith's second-in-command.

[Lord Raijin]

HiroVoid wrote...
I don't think Sebastian appreciated his mother figure being killed.  Then, you have the people who went to the chantry on a regular basis as it was their place of worship.  Then, you had any relatives of the priests, priestesses, or templars in the chantry.  Then, you have the people who were neutral in the conflict who may not feel all that well towards the idea of a mage proving how dangerous he is after blowing up an iconic building.  As for Sebastian, aside from his army threat, I do like he was the only person to actually want the person responsible for the whole chantry explosion dead rather than going after the circle.

Edit: Just quote my post.  Don't want to start too large of a quote tree.

Sebastian may not like it but he should realize that she is involved in the war between the mages and the Chantry base on who she is and what she represents. She is a primary target for such groups like the Revolutionist. It is the right for mages to fight for their freedom at all cost just as it is the right for the Chantry's templars to fight to restore order, and to control the mages at all cost.

The templars took someone close away from Anders (Karl) and Anders took away someone close to the templars (Elthina). It's fair game during war, really.

[LOLandStuff]

Obviously the templars did a ******-poor job at taking Karl away from Anders since the Gallows are still standing.

[Lord Raijin]

ianvillan wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
No matter if Meredith is removed another Meredith will simply take her place.

Nope. Cullen was second-in-command. He would have taken over.

Cullen is just a few steps away from being Meredith himself, he is just smarter about showing his hatred in public.

If Cullen had taken over Meredith's position the same things would of happened but with no red lyrium to blame for his actions.

Another Meredith indeed. Cullen didn't just rise up in ranks just for being good looking.

[Star fury]

Lord Raijin wrote...
The templars took someone close away from Anders (Karl) and Anders took away someone close to the templars (Elthina). It's fair game during war, really.

Some would call Anders a freedom fighter, not terrorist tbh.

[Br3admax]

I've grown so tired of using Latin fallacies that I'm going over to multicultural ones. Hello, Aunt Sally.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ianvillan wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nope. You lack reading comprehension. It is 4 separate statements you combined into 1.

1) Tranquility was designed as a mercy
2) There are argument for more wide-spread use, but Harrowing has worked well, so more tranquility won't be used unless the amges push the tempalrs.
3) Mages don't view tranquility as a mercy
4) mages don't want any restriction.

1)Where is it said it was designed as a mercy.

2) You see nothing wrong with saying that the harrowing works so well but if the mages push us we will do a wide spread right of tranquillity. So the mages push for the abuses to stop and have more rights so your answer is to tranquilise them all.

3) I don't blame them.

4) some not all mages don't want any restrictions, some mages believe in the circle system, some want to visit there families or not have the Templars kill them when they feel like it, some want to have an equal system with the Templars. The mages have left the circles because a majority were not happy that the Templars were not willing to change the system and were fed up with the Templars doing what they want with no punishment.

*facepalm*

You truly lack reading comprehension.

I analyzed Cullens line and summarized what HE said. As usual, you are reading it all wrong.

FF's don't try to put words and statemetns in my mouth. You can't even manage it with written, fixed characters.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ianvillan wrote...

I think the quotes I provided show Cullen is such an extreme Templar that Greagoir felt he should not be left to look after mages and sent him away to try and calm him down.
I think that Cullen liked Merediths stance and shared her views and rose in the ranks quickly because of that and that he would of gone down the same path as Meredith did.

I already told you the quotes you provided do a better job at defending than condeming him.
Learn english and proper reasoning.

Re-posting the same quotes doesn't help your weak-ass argument either.

[Lord Raijin]

Star fury wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Cullen is just a few steps away from being Meredith himself, he is just smarter about showing his hatred in public.

If Cullen had taken over Meredith's position the same things would of happened but with no red lyrium to blame for his actions.

Huh? Cullen is one sane templar in DA2 and you say that the same thing would've happened with him in charge? He also lost most of his friends and was tortured by blood mages in the past. It's amazing that Cullen remained level-headed after a brief period of madness in DA:O where he proposed to annull the Circle.

Thank you so much for my morning laugh. I beg a differ on that. Cullen was not only the most stupid templar in DA2, but also the most cluelesss. he failed so much of being a Captain that it isn't even funny anymore. If thats your definition of "sane" then I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

[Aremce]

For once I have to defend Cullen, I think ... He is in fact no zealot like Meredith. He does fear mages (and has a reason I can understand), but he does not wish to kill them all. He's reasonable enough to listen to Hawke defending the mages - and even agrees to moderate arguments. And in my "moderate" pro-templar playthrough he was the one who supported Hawke when she wanted to spare the circle mages who surrendered to her. Not that I'm a Cullen-fan, but because of those reasons I think he's not that bad for a templar ...^^

[Lord Raijin]

MisterJB wrote...

Yeah, he had just spent weeks being physically and mentally tortured by mages. Give the man a break.

And you don't think mages recieves the same treatment by their templar jailers? Does Ser Karras ring a bell to you? Or what about Ser Alrik who makes mages tranquil to be then use as a sex slave. Yeah Poor poor Cullen. I think he needs a pacifier to suckle on for a while.

Mages were already at war with the templars prior to to the Chantry being blown up by Anders. Mages don't turn to blood magic for ****s and giggles. They do it because the templars cannot dispell it with their templar ability.

[LOLandStuff]

@Star Fury

On the forum only mages have the right to suffer and whine. Didn't you figure out that by now?
Cullen should've been mute. Look where that mouth got him for speaking his mind. He's the male version of Meredith.

[MisterJB]

Lord Raijin wrote...
And you don't think mages recieves the same treatment by their templar jailers?.

They don't.

[MisterJB]

Lord Raijin wrote...
If thats your definition of "sane" then I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

Have a nice trip.

[Lord Raijin]

ianvillan wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
What lore is their that shows that Cullen would be tolerant of mages and not willing to do the right of annulment, Cullen has made his views of the mages clear how he does not think of them as human or should be tolerated.

I will forget that this is the same Cullen who was written to turn into a mage serial killer and is insane at the end of DAO, It is also the same Cullen that would accept a Templar who could be an abomination but would kill a mage and their associates if their was even a hint they might be possessed.

Can you show how Cullen would be different than Meredith and not go down the same path.

If Cullen is not a member of the red Templars in DAI after he was tortured by blood mages in DAO and all that happened in DA2 and with his opinion of mages then I would not believe that his character is believable . 

You're the one who made the claim, the burden of proof falls on your, not on us.

Let's see, Cullen is uncertain when Meredith calls for the Right of Annulment; Cullen accepts Alain and his cohorts back in the Circle and pleads on their behalf despite them being blood mages lead by an Abomination; Cullen orders the Templars under him to spare surrendering mages during the ROA; never in the entire DA franchise have we ever seen or heard of Cullen abusing a single mage.

But he speaks the truth; that mages have incredible destructive power and that their treatment should take this into account; and suddenly he is a villain.

Just out of curiosity, do you happen to have Templar you like?

Here are some quotes from Cullen in DA2

(To Hawke, Enemies Among Us, Act I) "I was at the Circle Tower in Ferelden during the Blight. I saw first hand how templar's trust and leniency can be rewarded. I still have nightmares of Uldred's depravities."

(To Hawke, Enemies Among Us, Act I) "Mages cannot be treated like people. They are not like you and me. They are weapons. They have the power to light a city on fire in a fit of pique."

(To Hawke about Meredith, Act I) "She is not an easy taskmaster. But it is not an easy task. I would not have liked her when I was younger. I thought mages deserved a softer touch. But Meredith is never fooled by a sweet face. She always sees the demon behind it."

(To Hawke, Act I) "It used to be that templars were welcomed wherever they went—for defending people from dark magics. Now the townsfolk are as likely to slam their doors as offer us a bed. The image of the poor, chained apprentice is a powerful one. And one the mages are more than willing to exploit."

(To Hawke about the Tranquil Solution after Dissent, Act II) "It's true there has been some discussion of the idea. But as you can see, it has gone no further than that. The Harrowing has served us well enough for centuries. It will be up to mages themselves whether they push us to more stringent measures."

(Hawke asks him, if he approves of Ser Alrik's plan after Dissent, Act II) "The Tranquil ritual was created as a mercy so that mages need not be killed out of hand for a threat they might pose. There is an argument to be made for applying it more widely. But the mages have made it clear they view the ritual as no better than death. They want no controls on them at all."

The codex entry about Cullen says
Knight-Captain Cullen was oneof the few templars who survived the incident at the Circle of Magi in Ferelden. The possessed blood mage Uldred took over the tower, and in his madness, he filled it with summoned demons and abominations. Cullen was imprisoned, tortured, and forced to watch the slaughter of his fellow templars. The ordeal shook him, and he emerged from it convinced that even templars fail to see how dangerous mages can be.
After Cullen returned to his duties, it became clear that he would go to any lengths to enforce the Chantry's rule. His zeal troubled Knight-Commander Greagoir, who feared it unwise to let Cullen watch over the men and women he deemed responsible for his torment.
Greagoir sent Cullen to serve under Knight-commander Meredith in Kirkwall, hoping time away would calm him, and Meredith found Cullen's view of mages similar to her own. Of her company, only Cullen had seen mages' potentially terrifying power first hand, and she believed he could influence the other templars' views. Consequently, Cullen rose quickly through the ranks to become knight-captain and Meredith's second-in-command.

Cullen is not the tolerant true Templar you would have us believe.

And there we see it... Meredith adoptive son whom she coddled with.