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[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Star fury wrote...

I don't get why are templars so inclined to hunt Anders that they even sent one of them to the Grey Wardens to keep an eye? He's ordinary mage, why all the fuss? Templars also violate a direct order from Fereldan's king to let him be when conscripted.

They probably didn't give two pots of ****** about Anders. Anders is just paranoid delussional that he thinks that ALL Templars are out to get him. It got even worse when he merged with Justice.

Well, when Ser Rylock says she doesn't give a ****** what the crown says and that Chantry authority supercedes the crown...

And you can't really blame him for thinking he's in danger in Kirkwall. Fact is, no one was safe there.

Rylock died, and Anders hadn't even been to Kirkwall yet, at the time we are discussing...

[Star fury]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Star fury wrote...

I don't get why are templars so inclined to hunt Anders that they even sent one of them to the Grey Wardens to keep an eye? He's ordinary mage, why all the fuss? Templars also violate a direct order from Fereldan's king to let him be when conscripted.

They probably didn't give two pots of ****** about Anders. Anders is just paranoid delussional that he thinks that ALL Templars are out to get him. It got even worse when he merged with Justice.

Templars attacking Anders in Amaranthine while the Ferelden king explicitly prohibited them from going near him was also a "paranoid delussional"?

And templars came just to casually chat with Anders when he killed them in that short story. 

Modifié par Star fury, 31 octobre 2013 - 10:06 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Rylock died, and Anders hadn't even been to Kirkwall yet, at the time we are discussing...

I don't think one can discount the very valid idea that this Templar was put in there as a means to keep tabs on Anders. Repeated Rylock incidents would certainly not go over well, and this way they would be able to keep an eye on him without drawing any further ire.

To label him a paranoid delusional for having a very grounded fear that has previous encounters to back it up seems to be rather... odd.

Could he be imagining it? Sure. But to say he is definitely imagining it doesn't fly.

Besides, he didn't think ALL Templars were out to get him at any point.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 octobre 2013 - 10:19 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Rylock died, and Anders hadn't even been to Kirkwall yet, at the time we are discussing...

I don't think one can discount the very valid idea that this Templar was put in there as a means to keep tabs on Anders. Repeated Rylock incidents would certainly not go over well, and this way they would be able to keep an eye on him without drawing any further ire.

To label him a paranoid delusional for having a very grounded fear that has previous encounters to back it up seems to be rather... odd.

Could he be imagining it? Sure. But to say he is definitely imagining it doesn't fly.

Besides, he didn't think ALL Templars were out to get him at any point.

The Templar was recruited by the Warden Commander. The Chantry can't just plant a Templar within the Wardens. The Wardens would have had to see some merit in the man, and he would obviously have ahd to passed his joinning. All of this speaks against him being "planted" by the Chantry. Sure he was an ex-Templar and thus "prejudiced against mages, but that doesn't make him a spy. Also Anders was an ABOMINATION, the Grey Wardens and Templars had all the reason in the world to try and destroy him. It had nothing to do with the Templars and/or Chantry wanting to keep an eye on him. Sure, Anders would love for it to be the case, since that would further vindicate his skewered ideas.

He is obviously delusional since he thought he only killed two persons, but when he comes to, he realizes he killed a whole bunch of his fellow Wardens and a few Templars to boot.

His grounded fear, become ungrounded the second he joined the Wardens. Once he left them, it became real again.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Star fury wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Star fury wrote...

I don't get why are templars so inclined to hunt Anders that they even sent one of them to the Grey Wardens to keep an eye? He's ordinary mage, why all the fuss? Templars also violate a direct order from Fereldan's king to let him be when conscripted.

They probably didn't give two pots of ****** about Anders. Anders is just paranoid delussional that he thinks that ALL Templars are out to get him. It got even worse when he merged with Justice.

Templars attacking Anders in Amaranthine while the Ferelden king explicitly prohibited them from going near him was also a "paranoid delussional"?

And templars came just to casually chat with Anders when he killed them in that short story. 

Rylock wanted Anders dead, becasue she thought he had killed his Templar captors. She wasn't acting under Chantry authority. She was technically going rogue.
And in his short story the Wardens and Templars came to kill him because he was an ABOMINATION.
(How can people not get that part?)

[Star fury]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Star fury wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Star fury wrote...

I don't get why are templars so inclined to hunt Anders that they even sent one of them to the Grey Wardens to keep an eye? He's ordinary mage, why all the fuss? Templars also violate a direct order from Fereldan's king to let him be when conscripted.

They probably didn't give two pots of ****** about Anders. Anders is just paranoid delussional that he thinks that ALL Templars are out to get him. It got even worse when he merged with Justice.

Templars attacking Anders in Amaranthine while the Ferelden king explicitly prohibited them from going near him was also a "paranoid delussional"?

And templars came just to casually chat with Anders when he killed them in that short story. 

Rylock wanted Anders dead, becasue she thought he had killed his Templar captors. She wasn't acting under Chantry authority. She was technically going rogue.
And in his short story the Wardens and Templars came to kill him because he was an ABOMINATION.
(How can people not get that part?)

Ahem, okay. Anders wasn't acting under Circle authority. He was going rogue, that could explain everything.  

[EmperorSahlertz]

Star fury wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Star fury wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Star fury wrote...

I don't get why are templars so inclined to hunt Anders that they even sent one of them to the Grey Wardens to keep an eye? He's ordinary mage, why all the fuss? Templars also violate a direct order from Fereldan's king to let him be when conscripted.

They probably didn't give two pots of ****** about Anders. Anders is just paranoid delussional that he thinks that ALL Templars are out to get him. It got even worse when he merged with Justice.

Templars attacking Anders in Amaranthine while the Ferelden king explicitly prohibited them from going near him was also a "paranoid delussional"?

And templars came just to casually chat with Anders when he killed them in that short story. 

Rylock wanted Anders dead, becasue she thought he had killed his Templar captors. She wasn't acting under Chantry authority. She was technically going rogue.
And in his short story the Wardens and Templars came to kill him because he was an ABOMINATION.
(How can people not get that part?)

Ahem, okay. Anders wasn't acting under Circle authority. He was going rogue, that could explain everything.  

Was that ever in any doubt?

[dragonflight288]

Rylock wanted Anders dead, becasue she thought he had killed his Templar captors. She wasn't acting under Chantry authority. She was technically going rogue.
And in his short story the Wardens and Templars came to kill him because he was an ABOMINATION.
(How can people not get that part?)

To the point on Rylock, yes she did think he killed his templar escort. However, she had no evidence to prove that it was Anders. It could easily have been what Anders said from the beginning, that it was the Darkspawn. It could also be true that Anders did kill them in the chaos of the darkspawn attack.

Problem is that Rylock had no evidence either way, and seemed to simply expect the Grey Warden commander and the King/Queen to take her word for it just because.

As for the case of Ser Rylon, it is true that they tried to kill him because he was an abomination, but that doesn't discount that a templar (with his lyrium addiction included) started following him around everywhere. Now, I'm not justifying or defending Anders or Rylon's actions in the short story, simply stating that Anders did have reason to be paranoid, and Rylon didn't give the impression that he cared one bit about what Anders thought.

It's not paranoia if they are out to get you, after all.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...
To the point on Rylock, yes she did think he killed his templar escort. However, she had no evidence to prove that it was Anders. It could easily have been what Anders said from the beginning, that it was the Darkspawn. It could also be true that Anders did kill them in the chaos of the darkspawn attack.

Problem is that Rylock had no evidence either way, and seemed to simply expect the Grey Warden commander and the King/Queen to take her word for it just because. 

This doesn't really change anything. It simply proves even further that Rylock was going rogue, and as such that Anders had even less to fear from the Chantry....

dragonflight288 wrote...
As for the case of Ser Rylon, it is true that they tried to kill him because he was an abomination, but that doesn't discount that a templar (with his lyrium addiction included) started following him around everywhere. Now, I'm not justifying or defending Anders or Rylon's actions in the short story, simply stating that Anders did have reason to be paranoid, and Rylon didn't give the impression that he cared one bit about what Anders thought.

It's not paranoia if they are out to get you, after all.

They were teamed up everywhere. The Grey Wardens teamed them together, Rolan wasn't following Anders around just for the kicks, and there is no evidence at all to support that the Chantry had told him to.
All we got in the short story, is a story about Anders killing a bunch of his fellow Wardens and some Templars, and still somehow tries to pass it off as the Chantry's fault. It is a highly subjective story, and completely in character.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
As for the case of Ser Rylon, it is true that they tried to kill him because he was an abomination, but that doesn't discount that a templar (with his lyrium addiction included) started following him around everywhere. Now, I'm not justifying or defending Anders or Rylon's actions in the short story, simply stating that Anders did have reason to be paranoid, and Rylon didn't give the impression that he cared one bit about what Anders thought.

It's not paranoia if they are out to get you, after all.

Assigned by the Wardens.
Now Wardens aren't idiots so having a templar with a mage is a good idea - especially for Anders since he's such a heap of trouble wherever he goes.
Simply put, there is no evidence whatsoever that Rylon was only there becuse the templars forced the Wardens. Templars can harldy force the Wardens to do anything anyway, and I doult they would make a fuss over Anders - if anything they would be happy to see him go.

Either way, Anders was an abomintion and he knew very well what that means and the consequences it would entail.

[cjones91]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
As for the case of Ser Rylon, it is true that they tried to kill him because he was an abomination, but that doesn't discount that a templar (with his lyrium addiction included) started following him around everywhere. Now, I'm not justifying or defending Anders or Rylon's actions in the short story, simply stating that Anders did have reason to be paranoid, and Rylon didn't give the impression that he cared one bit about what Anders thought.

It's not paranoia if they are out to get you, after all.

Assigned by the Wardens.
Now Wardens aren't idiots so having a templar with a mage is a good idea - especially for Anders since he's such a heap of trouble wherever he goes.
Simply put, there is no evidence whatsoever that Rylon was only there becuse the templars forced the Wardens. Templars can harldy force the Wardens to do anything anyway, and I doult they would make a fuss over Anders - if anything they would be happy to see him go.

Either way, Anders was an abomintion and he knew very well what that means and the consequences it would entail.

The problem with your argument is that the Grey Wardens don't share the same attitudes towards mages as the Chantry does so they would'nt have templars following their mages around.The Chantry had basically told the Wardens"Hey you better recruit this templar into your ranks otherwise we will make a huge fuss over the fact that you have a wanted apostate in your order."To be honest I don't think the Wardens wanted the head ache and so they decided to appease the Chantry by recruiting Ser Rylon.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Wardens screwed by affirmative action? Oh my that's so rich. XD

I love it when they get Into real world issues.

[cjones91]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Wardens screwed by affirmative action? Oh my that's so rich. XD

I love it when they get Into real world issues.

Pretty much,it was either recruit that templar or deal with repeated attempts by the Chantry to capture one of their own.

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
As for the case of Ser Rylon, it is true that they tried to kill him because he was an abomination, but that doesn't discount that a templar (with his lyrium addiction included) started following him around everywhere. Now, I'm not justifying or defending Anders or Rylon's actions in the short story, simply stating that Anders did have reason to be paranoid, and Rylon didn't give the impression that he cared one bit about what Anders thought.

It's not paranoia if they are out to get you, after all.

Assigned by the Wardens.
Now Wardens aren't idiots so having a templar with a mage is a good idea - especially for Anders since he's such a heap of trouble wherever he goes.
Simply put, there is no evidence whatsoever that Rylon was only there becuse the templars forced the Wardens. Templars can harldy force the Wardens to do anything anyway, and I doult they would make a fuss over Anders - if anything they would be happy to see him go.

Either way, Anders was an abomintion and he knew very well what that means and the consequences it would entail.

The problem with your argument is that the Grey Wardens don't share the same attitudes towards mages as the Chantry does so they would'nt have templars following their mages around.The Chantry had basically told the Wardens"Hey you better recruit this templar into your ranks otherwise we will make a huge fuss over the fact that you have a wanted apostate in your order."To be honest I don't think the Wardens wanted the head ache and so they decided to appease the Chantry by recruiting Ser Rylon.

And where is your proof? What Anders said? SO you take the word of a delusional homicidal abomination as an indisputable truth?

[The Flying Grey Warden]

cjones91 wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Wardens screwed by affirmative action? Oh my that's so rich. XD

I love it when they get Into real world issues.

Pretty much,it was either recruit that templar or deal with repeated attempts by the Chantry to capture one of their own.

Special interest groups, screwing up good things since the 1970's. XD

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
As for the case of Ser Rylon, it is true that they tried to kill him because he was an abomination, but that doesn't discount that a templar (with his lyrium addiction included) started following him around everywhere. Now, I'm not justifying or defending Anders or Rylon's actions in the short story, simply stating that Anders did have reason to be paranoid, and Rylon didn't give the impression that he cared one bit about what Anders thought.

It's not paranoia if they are out to get you, after all.

Assigned by the Wardens.
Now Wardens aren't idiots so having a templar with a mage is a good idea - especially for Anders since he's such a heap of trouble wherever he goes.
Simply put, there is no evidence whatsoever that Rylon was only there becuse the templars forced the Wardens. Templars can harldy force the Wardens to do anything anyway, and I doult they would make a fuss over Anders - if anything they would be happy to see him go.

Either way, Anders was an abomintion and he knew very well what that means and the consequences it would entail.

The problem with your argument is that the Grey Wardens don't share the same attitudes towards mages as the Chantry does so they would'nt have templars following their mages around.The Chantry had basically told the Wardens"Hey you better recruit this templar into your ranks otherwise we will make a huge fuss over the fact that you have a wanted apostate in your order."To be honest I don't think the Wardens wanted the head ache and so they decided to appease the Chantry by recruiting Ser Rylon.

And where is your proof? What Anders said? SO you take the word of a delusional homicidal abomination as an indisputable truth?

Anders did'nt even mention it,that's what I read from the short story so there's your proof right there.

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
As for the case of Ser Rylon, it is true that they tried to kill him because he was an abomination, but that doesn't discount that a templar (with his lyrium addiction included) started following him around everywhere. Now, I'm not justifying or defending Anders or Rylon's actions in the short story, simply stating that Anders did have reason to be paranoid, and Rylon didn't give the impression that he cared one bit about what Anders thought.

It's not paranoia if they are out to get you, after all.

Assigned by the Wardens.
Now Wardens aren't idiots so having a templar with a mage is a good idea - especially for Anders since he's such a heap of trouble wherever he goes.
Simply put, there is no evidence whatsoever that Rylon was only there becuse the templars forced the Wardens. Templars can harldy force the Wardens to do anything anyway, and I doult they would make a fuss over Anders - if anything they would be happy to see him go.

Either way, Anders was an abomintion and he knew very well what that means and the consequences it would entail.

The problem with your argument is that the Grey Wardens don't share the same attitudes towards mages as the Chantry does so they would'nt have templars following their mages around.The Chantry had basically told the Wardens"Hey you better recruit this templar into your ranks otherwise we will make a huge fuss over the fact that you have a wanted apostate in your order."To be honest I don't think the Wardens wanted the head ache and so they decided to appease the Chantry by recruiting Ser Rylon.

And where is your proof? What Anders said? SO you take the word of a delusional homicidal abomination as an indisputable truth?

Anders did'nt even mention it,that's what I read from the short story so there's your proof right there.

"No one ever said a deal had been struck, but as soon as the templars stopped their protests, Rolan turned up in the Wardens, and we've fielded every assignment together since. It's all too clear the templars sent him to keep watch." This is taken directly out of the short story... Methinks that is pretty much exactly what you jsut stated as your own belief.
And basically that isn't proof, so you are basing this entirely on your own bias and/or Anders'. That is not really a good foundation for an opinion.

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
As for the case of Ser Rylon, it is true that they tried to kill him because he was an abomination, but that doesn't discount that a templar (with his lyrium addiction included) started following him around everywhere. Now, I'm not justifying or defending Anders or Rylon's actions in the short story, simply stating that Anders did have reason to be paranoid, and Rylon didn't give the impression that he cared one bit about what Anders thought.

It's not paranoia if they are out to get you, after all.

Assigned by the Wardens.
Now Wardens aren't idiots so having a templar with a mage is a good idea - especially for Anders since he's such a heap of trouble wherever he goes.
Simply put, there is no evidence whatsoever that Rylon was only there becuse the templars forced the Wardens. Templars can harldy force the Wardens to do anything anyway, and I doult they would make a fuss over Anders - if anything they would be happy to see him go.

Either way, Anders was an abomintion and he knew very well what that means and the consequences it would entail.

The problem with your argument is that the Grey Wardens don't share the same attitudes towards mages as the Chantry does so they would'nt have templars following their mages around.The Chantry had basically told the Wardens"Hey you better recruit this templar into your ranks otherwise we will make a huge fuss over the fact that you have a wanted apostate in your order."To be honest I don't think the Wardens wanted the head ache and so they decided to appease the Chantry by recruiting Ser Rylon.

And where is your proof? What Anders said? SO you take the word of a delusional homicidal abomination as an indisputable truth?

Anders did'nt even mention it,that's what I read from the short story so there's your proof right there.

"No one ever said a deal had been struck, but as soon as the templars stopped their protests, Rolan turned up in the Wardens, and we've fielded every assignment together since. It's all too clear the templars sent him to keep watch." This is taken directly out of the short story... Methinks that is pretty much exactly what you jsut stated as your own belief.
And basically that isn't proof, so you are basing this entirely on your own bias and/or Anders'. That is not really a good foundation for an opinion.

Think about it for a second before accusing someone of being biased....why would the Amaranthine Wardens recruit a random templar after several tried to attack their Commander before?I'd think they will atleast be somewhat somewhat suspicous that the Chantry would allow them to induct a templar given the fact that they hardly did so before,I'm willing to believe the Chantry basically forced the Wardens' hand on this issue.

[cjones91]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Its biased because its from Anders point of view.

So what if it's from his point of view?I'm pretty sure that other wardens were just as cautious about this new recruit as he was.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

cjones91 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Its biased because its from Anders point of view.

So what if it's from his point of view?I'm pretty sure that other wardens were just as cautious about this new recruit as he was.

If the story were told from rylock's point of view, and it was all about suspecting her partner of being a murderous monster, trying to prove it, and finally seeing it was true. Would you call that bias?

[LOLandStuff]

Anders always struck me as the paranoid type no mater what. Proof is how hostile he acts towards Aveline who does her job and still tries to help him. And with Thrask too.
Someone speaking his mind? He has this hostile whining about him.
All he does is run away from problems. I doubt he'd stick for long with his revolution.

[cjones91]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Its biased because its from Anders point of view.

So what if it's from his point of view?I'm pretty sure that other wardens were just as cautious about this new recruit as he was.

If the story were told from rylock's point of view, and it was all about suspecting her partner of being a murderous monster, trying to prove it, and finally seeing it was true. Would you call that bias?

No,but I would wonder if Rylon was sent to the Grey Wardens to act as a double agent.

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...
Think about it for a second before accusing someone of being biased....why would the Amaranthine Wardens recruit a random templar after several tried to attack their Commander before?I'd think they will atleast be somewhat somewhat suspicous that the Chantry would allow them to induct a templar given the fact that they hardly did so before,I'm willing to believe the Chantry basically forced the Wardens' hand on this issue.

The Chantry havn't had problems with letting Templars join the Wardens. They've had trouble with letting Alistair, the royal bastard, join the Grey Wardens, and thus lose control of an important assest.
Nor ahve the Wardens previously had any qualms about recruiting Templars. And any Warden COmmander with two brain cells to rub together, would realize that Rylock was acting without authority. So any Warden Commander shouldn't have any problems recruiting a Templar in the future. Furthermore it is never specified where Rolan originates. All it says is that his Chantry burned down. So Rolan might not even have any prior knowledge to Anders. In fact it is entirely likely that he doesn't. Also, there is no precedent for the Chantry forcing the hand of the Grey Wardens previously, so I doubt that they would try to do so, over some insignificant apostate like Anders.

Bottomline: When you add all this together, it becomes more and more clear, that Anders was being paranoid delusional.

[dragonflight288]

*shrug*

What the truth is no longer matters. Anders fled the Wardens, blew up a Chantry, killed the Grand Cleric, and was possessed by a Spirit of Justice/Vengeance.

I don't think we'll come to the truth of the matter unless we got some confirmation from someone in the Wardens (Stroud, Nathanial or someone who was there) or from the Chantry itself about the nature of their relationship and why Rylon was recruited.

Of course, it's entirely possible the Wardens simply recruited Rylon to shut the Chantry up, hoping he'd die in the joining.