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[EmperorSahlertz]

The entire point of this derailing of the thread, was to establish just how much of a horrible person Anders was, and how it is equally mind boggeling that some actually sympathize with him.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The entire point of this derailing of the thread, was to establish just how much of a horrible person Anders was, and how it is equally mind boggeling that some actually sympathize with him.

It isn't that mind-boggling, when taken from the perspective of someone who is part of a group that had been victimized by another group for centuries.

That's not to say I sympathize with him. I kill him in nearly every single one of my playthroughs (only spared him once, just to see how he'd react to the Annulment, in the same playthrough I sided with templars.)

It's as Thrask says in the end though. "I always expect people to be wary of the mages power, but I'm constantly surprised by how often they sympathize with their struggle." The same is true for gamers.

[MisterJB]

And what if Rylon was sent by the Chantry to keep Anders in check? How was it such an unreasonable attitude?
The Grey Wardens get yet another man capable of surviving the Joining and, should their mages become dangerous, there are people in the Order who can stop them.
Given how things turned out, the only fault that can be laid on Rylon was that he failed to kill Anders.

[Dave of Canada]

dragonflight288 wrote...

It isn't that mind-boggling, when taken from the perspective of someone who is part of a group that had been victimized by another group for centuries.

It's mind-boggling that some of the things that Anders does are dismissed to defend him because they feel uncomfortable admitting they're romancing someone who killed innocents. I recall vividly the whole "Anders isn't a terrorist because he's a good guy!" threads.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 octobre 2013 - 04:32 .

[dragonflight288]

Dave of Canada wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

It isn't that mind-boggling, when taken from the perspective of someone who is part of a group that had been victimized by another group for centuries.

It's mind-boggling that some of the things that Anders does are dismissed to defend him because they feel uncomfortable admitting they're romancing someone who killed innocents. I recall vividly the whole "Anders isn't a terrorist because he's a good guy!" threads.

I remember those. Those threads also went on large tangents about the evils of the Chantry and templars. Some good points raised, others made no sense, and I sat back and ate popcorn.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

And what if Rylon was sent by the Chantry to keep Anders in check? How was it such an unreasonable attitude?
The Grey Wardens get yet another man capable of surviving the Joining and, should their mages become dangerous, there are people in the Order who can stop them.
Given how things turned out, the only fault that can be laid on Rylon was that he failed to kill Anders.

Because the Grey Wardens don't answer to the Chantry?They are a organization completely independant of other nations and so I don't see why the Grey Wardens would recruit some random templar unless they saw his/her abilities for themselves which is impossible since the Chantry keeps all of their templars' secrets on a tight leash.

[Dave of Canada]

I ran out of popcorn by the first few weeks.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 octobre 2013 - 04:35 .

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

And what if Rylon was sent by the Chantry to keep Anders in check? How was it such an unreasonable attitude?
The Grey Wardens get yet another man capable of surviving the Joining and, should their mages become dangerous, there are people in the Order who can stop them.
Given how things turned out, the only fault that can be laid on Rylon was that he failed to kill Anders.

Again, it's a matter of perspective. Was Anders an abomination? He most certainly was during the moments he lost control of Justice and slaughtered people.

But then we get into the fine details, and we have to ask, is Wynne an abomination as she seems to be possessed in a way quite similar (with fundamental differences to be sure) as Anders is. As such, does she not also deserve death for what she is?

Some gamers will sympathize with Anders and the struggle of mages overall, and will go out of their way to justify his actions, others will try to lay all the blame for all the bad things happening on Anders and will go out of their way to completely ignore anything that may have pushed him and others like him to the breaking point because it's all that wascally wabbit, er, Anders' fault.

I simply take things individually and by their situation. As for me personally, at the end of DA2, I execute Anders for his crime, because he is guilty of the crime itself, and then I side with the mages because I cannot conceive any reason why Meredith's "the people will demand blood" in any way justifies slaughtering every man, woman and child inside the Gallows for the actions of an apostate not related to them.

That's all it is in the end for me, by the end of DA2.

[Star fury]

MisterJB wrote...

And what if Rylon was sent by the Chantry to keep Anders in check? How was it such an unreasonable attitude?
The Grey Wardens get yet another man capable of surviving the Joining and, should their mages become dangerous, there are people in the Order who can stop them.
Given how things turned out, the only fault that can be laid on Rylon was that he failed to kill Anders.

It's because templars must stay the hell away from the Grey Wardens. Wardens are above this petty conflict, they are neutral and their goal is to fight the darkspawn. Templars and Chantry interfering and frankly violating Wardens' neutrality is probably their worst nightmare. 

Modifié par Star fury, 31 octobre 2013 - 04:50 .

[The Flying Grey Warden]

MisterJB wrote...

And what if Rylon was sent by the Chantry to keep Anders in check? How was it such an unreasonable attitude?
The Grey Wardens get yet another man capable of surviving the Joining and, should their mages become dangerous, there are people in the Order who can stop them.
Given how things turned out, the only fault that can be laid on Rylon was that he failed to kill Anders.

Can I blame them for being a dick about the whole affair?

Also, I do have a bit of a problem with the chantry trying to snake their way into the grey wardens. A grey warden should be a warden first, and everything else second. Otherwise you could get really stupid people joining the grey wardens who take their own bias's and perogatives and try to push them inside this place where they don't belong.

Like anders and the whole mage things. He was a grey warden now, he should have remembered that over himself being a mage.

Also, what would happen with a person like anders or rylon/rylock/whatever the hell it's name is if the wardens had to do something like deal with a group of apostate mages fleeing their blight filled country? Or had to stand up to local chantry authority who was getting in their way, ala the followers of andraste? Would they turn on their fellow wardens if the decision wasn't one they agreed with?

People with too much past baggage make terrible grey wardens, imo.

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 31 octobre 2013 - 04:53 .

[Star fury]

So one question - should templars execute Wynne because she's an "abomination"?

Modifié par Star fury, 31 octobre 2013 - 04:55 .

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...
Because the Grey Wardens don't answer to the Chantry?They are a organization completely independant of other nations and so I don't see why the Grey Wardens would recruit some random templar unless they saw his/her abilities for themselves which is impossible since the Chantry keeps all of their templars' secrets on a tight leash.

And they can keep their independence. But if a Templar survives the Joining then s/he is, by definition, worthy of joining the Grey Wardens.
The Grey Wardens gain yet another soldier and one that can nulify darkspawn magic and, should a Grey Warden mage go rogue or become an Abomination, there are Templars around to stop him/her.
Practically speaking, where exactly is the problem?

[The Flying Grey Warden]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Because the Grey Wardens don't answer to the Chantry?They are a organization completely independant of other nations and so I don't see why the Grey Wardens would recruit some random templar unless they saw his/her abilities for themselves which is impossible since the Chantry keeps all of their templars' secrets on a tight leash.

And they can keep their independence. But if a Templar survives the Joining then s/he is, by definition, worthy of joining the Grey Wardens.
The Grey Wardens gain yet another soldier and one that can nulify darkspawn magic and, should a Grey Warden mage go rogue or become an Abomination, there are Templars around to stop him/her.
Practically speaking, where exactly is the problem?

Will the templar actually follow the warden commander's orders, such as "Stand down and don't hurt those apostates" or will they just be a warden in name only, but really are templars acting as agents of the chantry's will? Having someone who could very well jepordize the warden's should they end up needing to come in conflict with a place like orlais, say because tevinter was hit by the next blight and orlais wanted it to burn and rot rather then save them.

It's a question of where their true loyalties lie, in a orginization that is supposed to operate independantly of standard players on thedas's stage.

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 31 octobre 2013 - 04:57 .

[Mr.House]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

And what if Rylon was sent by the Chantry to keep Anders in check? How was it such an unreasonable attitude?
The Grey Wardens get yet another man capable of surviving the Joining and, should their mages become dangerous, there are people in the Order who can stop them.
Given how things turned out, the only fault that can be laid on Rylon was that he failed to kill Anders.

Can I blame them for being a dick about the whole affair?

Also, I do have a bit of a problem with the chantry trying to snake their way into the grey wardens. A grey warden should be a warden first, and everything else second. Otherwise you could get really stupid people joining the grey wardens who take their own bias's and perogatives and try to push them inside this place where they don't belong.

Alistair and Anders, just saying.

[Star fury]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Because the Grey Wardens don't answer to the Chantry?They are a organization completely independant of other nations and so I don't see why the Grey Wardens would recruit some random templar unless they saw his/her abilities for themselves which is impossible since the Chantry keeps all of their templars' secrets on a tight leash.

And they can keep their independence. But if a Templar survives the Joining then s/he is, by definition, worthy of joining the Grey Wardens.
The Grey Wardens gain yet another soldier and one that can nulify darkspawn magic and, should a Grey Warden mage go rogue or become an Abomination, there are Templars around to stop him/her.
Practically speaking, where exactly is the problem?

Will the templar actually follow the warden commander's orders, such as "Stand down and don't hurt those apostates" or will they just be a warden in name only, but really are templars acting as agents of the chantry's will?

Very good question. Alistair was a great Warden because he forgot his templar past, even it sometimes shown. But Rolan from Ander's short story is just an infiltrated templar, just pretending to be a warden..

[Dave of Canada]

Star fury wrote...

So one question - should templars execute Wynne because she's an "abomination"?

Yes.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Mr.House wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

And what if Rylon was sent by the Chantry to keep Anders in check? How was it such an unreasonable attitude?
The Grey Wardens get yet another man capable of surviving the Joining and, should their mages become dangerous, there are people in the Order who can stop them.
Given how things turned out, the only fault that can be laid on Rylon was that he failed to kill Anders.

Can I blame them for being a dick about the whole affair?

Also, I do have a bit of a problem with the chantry trying to snake their way into the grey wardens. A grey warden should be a warden first, and everything else second. Otherwise you could get really stupid people joining the grey wardens who take their own bias's and perogatives and try to push them inside this place where they don't belong.

Alistair and Anders, just saying.

I thought them being bad grey wardens was a universially accepted truth by now.

[Mr.House]

Star fury wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Because the Grey Wardens don't answer to the Chantry?They are a organization completely independant of other nations and so I don't see why the Grey Wardens would recruit some random templar unless they saw his/her abilities for themselves which is impossible since the Chantry keeps all of their templars' secrets on a tight leash.

And they can keep their independence. But if a Templar survives the Joining then s/he is, by definition, worthy of joining the Grey Wardens.
The Grey Wardens gain yet another soldier and one that can nulify darkspawn magic and, should a Grey Warden mage go rogue or become an Abomination, there are Templars around to stop him/her.
Practically speaking, where exactly is the problem?

Will the templar actually follow the warden commander's orders, such as "Stand down and don't hurt those apostates" or will they just be a warden in name only, but really are templars acting as agents of the chantry's will?

Very good question. Alistair was a great Warden because he forgot his templar past, even it sometimes shown. But Rolan from Ander's short story is just an infiltrated templar, just pretending to be a warden..

That short story is not canon since it outright contradicts game events and what DA2 tells us.

[MisterJB]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...
Can I blame them for being a dick about the whole affair?

Also, I do have a bit of a problem with the chantry trying to snake their way into the grey wardens. A grey warden should be a warden first, and everything else second. Otherwise you could get really stupid people joining the grey wardens who take their own bias's and perogatives and try to push them inside this place where they don't belong.

Like anders and the whole mage things. He was a grey warden now, he should have remembered that over himself being a mage.

Also, what would happen with a person like anders or rylon/rylock/whatever the hell it's name is if the wardens had to do something like deal with a group of apostate mages fleeing their blight filled country? Or had to stand up to local chantry authority who was getting in their way, ala the followers of andraste? Would they turn on their fellow wardens if the decision wasn't one they agreed with?

People with too much past baggage make terrible grey wardens, imo.

A fair point but every person has emotional baggage. We have multiple examples of Wardens who let their emotions and biases make them lose sight of the goal: Sophia, Avernus, Alistair, Anders, Vellana (when she disappears looking for her sister).

We can't really single out the Templars.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Serious though, what's the characters name from this short story. I got rolan, rylock, and rylon now and it's starting to get a bit confusing.

[Dave of Canada]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Serious though, what's the characters name from this short story. I got rolan, rylock, and rylon now and it's starting to get a bit confusing.

http://www.dragon-ag...story.pdf]Rolan[/url]

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...
Can I blame them for being a dick about the whole affair?

Also, I do have a bit of a problem with the chantry trying to snake their way into the grey wardens. A grey warden should be a warden first, and everything else second. Otherwise you could get really stupid people joining the grey wardens who take their own bias's and perogatives and try to push them inside this place where they don't belong.

Like anders and the whole mage things. He was a grey warden now, he should have remembered that over himself being a mage.

Also, what would happen with a person like anders or rylon/rylock/whatever the hell it's name is if the wardens had to do something like deal with a group of apostate mages fleeing their blight filled country? Or had to stand up to local chantry authority who was getting in their way, ala the followers of andraste? Would they turn on their fellow wardens if the decision wasn't one they agreed with?

People with too much past baggage make terrible grey wardens, imo.

A fair point but every person has emotional baggage. We have multiple examples of Wardens who let their emotions and biases make them lose sight of the goal: Sophia, Avernus, Alistair, Anders, Vellana (when she disappears looking for her sister).

We can't really single out the Templars.

Nor can we single out mages, or pickpockets, or guardsmen, or city elves, dalish elves, dwarven exiles or casteless.

But if someone takes their old life as a higher priority to being a Grey Warden, they make a very poor warden.