Which parts does it contradict that can't just be boiled down to: "In this playthrough the hypothetical player made different choices for this to happen?"Mr.House wrote...
That short story is not canon since it outright contradicts game events and what DA2 tells us.
Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 31 octobre 2013 - 05:26 .
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The entire point of this derailing of the thread, was to establish just how much of a horrible person Anders was, and how it is equally mind boggeling that some actually sympathize with him.
Guest_Morocco Mole_*
Not really, no.DKJaigen wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The entire point of this derailing of the thread, was to establish just how much of a horrible person Anders was, and how it is equally mind boggeling that some actually sympathize with him.
Arent templars on the same boat? warmongers traitors and heretics the whole lot of them.
Yes, really. Lambert, Meredith, need I go on?EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Not really, no.DKJaigen wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The entire point of this derailing of the thread, was to establish just how much of a horrible person Anders was, and how it is equally mind boggeling that some actually sympathize with him.
Arent templars on the same boat? warmongers traitors and heretics the whole lot of them.
Guest_Morocco Mole_*
Yes lets base our ENTIRE idea of what an organization including THOUSANDS of people on what a single person did! What a splendid idea! Wait, shouldn't we also offer the amges the same courtesy then? Oh mages can't do any wrong? Okay gotcha....eluvianix wrote...
Yes, really. Lambert, Meredith, need I go on?EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Not really, no.DKJaigen wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The entire point of this derailing of the thread, was to establish just how much of a horrible person Anders was, and how it is equally mind boggeling that some actually sympathize with him.
Arent templars on the same boat? warmongers traitors and heretics the whole lot of them.
I wasn't saying that mages aren't culpable as well. I was making the point that both sides have stuff to fix. Templars and mages. I have never said, nor will I ever say that mages are entirely blameless for this conflict.EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Yes lets base our ENTIRE idea of what an organization including THOUSANDS of people on what a single person did! What a splendid idea! Wait, shouldn't we also offer the amges the same courtesy then? Oh mages can't do any wrong? Okay gotcha....eluvianix wrote...
Yes, really. Lambert, Meredith, need I go on?EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Not really, no.DKJaigen wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The entire point of this derailing of the thread, was to establish just how much of a horrible person Anders was, and how it is equally mind boggeling that some actually sympathize with him.
Arent templars on the same boat? warmongers traitors and heretics the whole lot of them.
And Lambert was a perfectly fine Templar. Ruthless, but he got the job done. Until of course the Divine decided to betray him and have his men murdered.
Modifié par eluvianix, 31 octobre 2013 - 05:52 .
Morocco Mole wrote...
Both groups have their elements of corruption
Morocco Mole wrote...
Lord Raijin wrote...
Thats precisely the problem and why theirs so many blood mages in Kirkwall.
And that's exactly why the templars got so harsh in Kirkwall. Its a cycle of violence.Xilizhra wrote...
Meaning... what? Decapitation happens kind of a lot. Heck, before the patch, Hawke frequently exploded people.And then his sword is level with my chest, and I let it come, because it is only steel and cannot hurt me, for I am not of mortal men. And when it sinks hilt-deep in my flesh with no reaction, that's when he gives up. He turns and runs, and from behind, I tear his head off at the neck, no magic, just me, whatever that is now. His blood splashes into my open mouth and it tastes like honeyed wine and the warmth spreads through me.
I don't think Hawke enjoys drinking their blood.
cjones91 wrote...
The problem with your argument is that the Grey Wardens don't share the same attitudes towards mages as the Chantry does so they would'nt have templars following their mages around.
The Chantry had basically told the Wardens"Hey you better recruit this templar into your ranks otherwise we will make a huge fuss over the fact that you have a wanted apostate in your order."To be honest I don't think the Wardens wanted the head ache and so they decided to appease the Chantry by recruiting Ser Rylon.
I would say that Ser Rylock's constant hounding of him proves that the Chantry would not just let him go.Lotion Soronnar wrote...
cjones91 wrote...
The problem with your argument is that the Grey Wardens don't share the same attitudes towards mages as the Chantry does so they would'nt have templars following their mages around.
And who told you that?
What makes oyu think tehy wouldnt' watch out for the mages in their ranks? GW's being ready to use almsot any weapons or menas at their disposal doesn't mean they are idiots who will not condier their own safety and the risks involved.The Chantry had basically told the Wardens"Hey you better recruit this templar into your ranks otherwise we will make a huge fuss over the fact that you have a wanted apostate in your order."To be honest I don't think the Wardens wanted the head ache and so they decided to appease the Chantry by recruiting Ser Rylon.
Again, PROVE that that hapened.
PROVE why would the Warden would even care about the "big fuss".
PRVOE why the Chatnry would even care about Anders, who is just one insignificant mage at that point or why it would be willing to cause that fuss over anders?
It's only Anderses ego and paraanoia that had him think he was sooo important to the Chantry that they couldn't let him go.
He obviously hasn't talked to Duncan during the Mage Origin enough if he believes that Warden's don't fear mages. They only ever allow one, except for now apparently, and Duncan seems to agree with the Chantry to a certain degree. They are willing to do what it takes to fight the darkspawn. They didn't suddenly become excepting after drinking tainted blood together.Lotion Soronnar wrote...
cjones91 wrote...
The problem with your argument is that the Grey Wardens don't share the same attitudes towards mages as the Chantry does so they would'nt have templars following their mages around.
And who told you that?
What makes oyu think tehy wouldnt' watch out for the mages in their ranks? GW's being ready to use almsot any weapons or menas at their disposal doesn't mean they are idiots who will not condier their own safety and the risks involved.The Chantry had basically told the Wardens"Hey you better recruit this templar into your ranks otherwise we will make a huge fuss over the fact that you have a wanted apostate in your order."To be honest I don't think the Wardens wanted the head ache and so they decided to appease the Chantry by recruiting Ser Rylon.
Again, PROVE that that hapened.
PROVE why would the Warden would even care about the "big fuss".
PRVOE why the Chatnry would even care about Anders, who is just one insignificant mage at that point or why it would be willing to cause that fuss over anders?
It's only Anderses ego and paraanoia that had him think he was sooo important to the Chantry that they couldn't let him go.
The Templars, as in the ENTIRE TEMPLAR ORDER, is not and was never in the same booth as Anders. SOME Templars are just as bad as Anders. I wouldn't want to share dormitory with Alrik for instance. But the Templar Order as an organization does good work.eluvianix wrote...
I wasn't saying that mages aren't culpable as well. I was making the point that both sides have stuff to fix. Templars and mages. I have never said, nor will I ever say that mages are entirely blameless for this conflict.EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Yes lets base our ENTIRE idea of what an organization including THOUSANDS of people on what a single person did! What a splendid idea! Wait, shouldn't we also offer the amges the same courtesy then? Oh mages can't do any wrong? Okay gotcha....eluvianix wrote...
Yes, really. Lambert, Meredith, need I go on?EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Not really, no.DKJaigen wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The entire point of this derailing of the thread, was to establish just how much of a horrible person Anders was, and how it is equally mind boggeling that some actually sympathize with him.
Arent templars on the same boat? warmongers traitors and heretics the whole lot of them.
And Lambert was a perfectly fine Templar. Ruthless, but he got the job done. Until of course the Divine decided to betray him and have his men murdered.
And boohoo for Lambert's men. I guarantee you if that had been a group of mages who had been slaughtered, you would have plenty of reasons for why their deaths were justified.
And all things considered, the Divine did her job. She helped the mages who she felt were being oppressed during Lambert's lockdown when Pharamond was retrieved.
Duncan was of the opinion that mages were just a small threat compared to the darkspawn,he did'nt have a opinion one way or the other.Br3ad wrote...
He obviously hasn't talked to Duncan during the Mage Origin enough if he believes that Warden's don't fear mages. They only ever allow one, except for now apparently, and Duncan seems to agree with the Chantry to a certain degree. They are willing to do what it takes to fight the darkspawn. They didn't suddenly become excepting after drinking tainted blood together.Lotion Soronnar wrote...
cjones91 wrote...
The problem with your argument is that the Grey Wardens don't share the same attitudes towards mages as the Chantry does so they would'nt have templars following their mages around.
And who told you that?
What makes oyu think tehy wouldnt' watch out for the mages in their ranks? GW's being ready to use almsot any weapons or menas at their disposal doesn't mean they are idiots who will not condier their own safety and the risks involved.The Chantry had basically told the Wardens"Hey you better recruit this templar into your ranks otherwise we will make a huge fuss over the fact that you have a wanted apostate in your order."To be honest I don't think the Wardens wanted the head ache and so they decided to appease the Chantry by recruiting Ser Rylon.
Again, PROVE that that hapened.
PROVE why would the Warden would even care about the "big fuss".
PRVOE why the Chatnry would even care about Anders, who is just one insignificant mage at that point or why it would be willing to cause that fuss over anders?
It's only Anderses ego and paraanoia that had him think he was sooo important to the Chantry that they couldn't let him go.
Tell Duncan that you think that the threat of abominations are over estimated when you talk to him in the library, and get back to me. I was certainly surprised the first time when there is really on one option that gets approval from him.cjones91 wrote...
Duncan was of the opinion that mages were just a small threat compared to the darkspawn,he did'nt have a opinion one way or the other.Br3ad wrote...
He obviously hasn't talked to Duncan during the Mage Origin enough if he believes that Warden's don't fear mages. They only ever allow one, except for now apparently, and Duncan seems to agree with the Chantry to a certain degree. They are willing to do what it takes to fight the darkspawn. They didn't suddenly become excepting after drinking tainted blood together.Lotion Soronnar wrote...
cjones91 wrote...
The problem with your argument is that the Grey Wardens don't share the same attitudes towards mages as the Chantry does so they would'nt have templars following their mages around.
And who told you that?
What makes oyu think tehy wouldnt' watch out for the mages in their ranks? GW's being ready to use almsot any weapons or menas at their disposal doesn't mean they are idiots who will not condier their own safety and the risks involved.The Chantry had basically told the Wardens"Hey you better recruit this templar into your ranks otherwise we will make a huge fuss over the fact that you have a wanted apostate in your order."To be honest I don't think the Wardens wanted the head ache and so they decided to appease the Chantry by recruiting Ser Rylon.
Again, PROVE that that hapened.
PROVE why would the Warden would even care about the "big fuss".
PRVOE why the Chatnry would even care about Anders, who is just one insignificant mage at that point or why it would be willing to cause that fuss over anders?
It's only Anderses ego and paraanoia that had him think he was sooo important to the Chantry that they couldn't let him go.
Star fury wrote...
So one question - should templars execute Wynne because she's an "abomination"?
cjones91 wrote...
Because the Grey Wardens don't answer to the
Chantry?They are a organization completely independant of other nations
and so I don't see why the Grey Wardens would recruit some random
templar unless they saw his/her abilities for themselves which is
impossible since the Chantry keeps all of their templars' secrets on a
tight leash.
Hold. What was this other "rebellion" against her organization. Are you referring to both Anders and then the events of White Spire?EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Templars, as in the ENTIRE TEMPLAR ORDER, is not and was never in the same booth as Anders. SOME Templars are just as bad as Anders. I wouldn't want to share dormitory with Alrik for instance. But the Templar Order as an organization does good work.eluvianix wrote...
I wasn't saying that mages aren't culpable as well. I was making the point that both sides have stuff to fix. Templars and mages. I have never said, nor will I ever say that mages are entirely blameless for this conflict.EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Yes lets base our ENTIRE idea of what an organization including THOUSANDS of people on what a single person did! What a splendid idea! Wait, shouldn't we also offer the amges the same courtesy then? Oh mages can't do any wrong? Okay gotcha....eluvianix wrote...
Yes, really. Lambert, Meredith, need I go on?EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Not really, no.DKJaigen wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The entire point of this derailing of the thread, was to establish just how much of a horrible person Anders was, and how it is equally mind boggeling that some actually sympathize with him.
Arent templars on the same boat? warmongers traitors and heretics the whole lot of them.
And Lambert was a perfectly fine Templar. Ruthless, but he got the job done. Until of course the Divine decided to betray him and have his men murdered.
And boohoo for Lambert's men. I guarantee you if that had been a group of mages who had been slaughtered, you would have plenty of reasons for why their deaths were justified.
And all things considered, the Divine did her job. She helped the mages who she felt were being oppressed during Lambert's lockdown when Pharamond was retrieved.
And wether or not I would find the killing of mages justifiable would be entirely dependant on the reasons given for why they had to die. Contrary to so many others on here, I actually prefer to make informed decisions instead of moronic blanket statements with little data to back it up.
The Divine most certainly did not do her job when she allowed open rebellion to occur, not once, but TWICE in the same year against her organization. Both were even caused as direct reactions to her actions or her lack of action. The current Divine is a useless sack of meat. If she wants to pick a side she should do it, but playing both the way she was trying can only weaken Thedas. So unless that is her MO, she is extremely incompetent.
Because their mages can walk around without someone watching them?Because they are fine with blood mages within their ranks?The Wardens think there are bigger problems than what mages could do and so would'nt adopt the Chantry's treatment of mages under their care.Lotion Soronnar wrote...
cjones91 wrote...
The problem with your argument is that the Grey Wardens don't share the same attitudes towards mages as the Chantry does so they would'nt have templars following their mages around.
And who told you that?
What makes oyu think tehy wouldnt' watch out for the mages in their ranks? GW's being ready to use almsot any weapons or menas at their disposal doesn't mean they are idiots who will not condier their own safety and the risks involved.The Chantry had basically told the Wardens"Hey you better recruit this templar into your ranks otherwise we will make a huge fuss over the fact that you have a wanted apostate in your order."To be honest I don't think the Wardens wanted the head ache and so they decided to appease the Chantry by recruiting Ser Rylon.
Again, PROVE that that hapened.
PROVE why would the Warden would even care about the "big fuss".
PRVOE why the Chatnry would even care about Anders, who is just one insignificant mage at that point or why it would be willing to cause that fuss over anders?
It's only Anderses ego and paraanoia that had him think he was sooo important to the Chantry that they couldn't let him go.
Modifié par cjones91, 31 octobre 2013 - 06:17 .
The Flying Grey Warden wrote...
It's a question of where their true loyalties lie, in a orginization that is supposed to operate independantly of standard players on thedas's stage.
The question remains: at what point, what line, do we differentiate Wynne's type of possession from Anders. But otherwise, I agree with what you said.Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Star fury wrote...
So one question - should templars execute Wynne because she's an "abomination"?
Wynne isn't the same.
The Spirit aids her, but there is no actual possession.
She in full control of her faculties, there is "merger".
But one could argue that she is an abomination and should be killed just to be sure, yes.cjones91 wrote...
Because the Grey Wardens don't answer to the
Chantry?They are a organization completely independant of other nations
and so I don't see why the Grey Wardens would recruit some random
templar unless they saw his/her abilities for themselves which is
impossible since the Chantry keeps all of their templars' secrets on a
tight leash.
Grey Warden only profit from this, so I don't see the problem.
They get another skilled warden and someone who can keep an eye on troublesome Anders.
And they can very well see his abiltities for themselves. Templars are skilled warriors in adition to their templar powers.
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The Flying Grey Warden wrote...
It's a question of where their true loyalties lie, in a orginization that is supposed to operate independantly of standard players on thedas's stage.
Then why did they recruit crazy Anders?
I ask you - how can you be sure of ANYONES loyalty? What should GW's do accordingto you? Admit no one?
Modifié par eluvianix, 31 octobre 2013 - 06:18 .
eluvianix wrote...
I would say that Ser Rylock's constant hounding of him proves that the Chantry would not just let him go.Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Again, PROVE that that hapened.
PROVE why would the Warden would even care about the "big fuss".
PRVOE why the Chatnry would even care about Anders, who is just one insignificant mage at that point or why it would be willing to cause that fuss over anders?
It's only Anderses ego and paraanoia that had him think he was sooo important to the Chantry that they couldn't let him go.
Why was Anders troublesome?He was a Grey Warden which means he was absolved of any past crimes he may have allegedly did,I still think the Chantry sent that templar in to serve as a double agent because it would make perfect sense for them to do something like that.Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Star fury wrote...
So one question - should templars execute Wynne because she's an "abomination"?
Wynne isn't the same.
The Spirit aids her, but there is no actual possession.
She in full control of her faculties, there is "merger".
But one could argue that she is an abomination and should be killed just to be sure, yes.cjones91 wrote...
Because the Grey Wardens don't answer to the
Chantry?They are a organization completely independant of other nations
and so I don't see why the Grey Wardens would recruit some random
templar unless they saw his/her abilities for themselves which is
impossible since the Chantry keeps all of their templars' secrets on a
tight leash.
Grey Warden only profit from this, so I don't see the problem.
They get another skilled warden and someone who can keep an eye on troublesome Anders.
And they can very well see his abiltities for themselves. Templars are skilled warriors in adition to their templar powers.
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