4643 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

To be honest, the more I hear of lambert and his actions, the more I get an image of some big dumb brute with a sword. He's loud, he's arrogant, he doesn't seem to have any sense of subtlety, doesn't seem to care at all about keeping a situation from turning ugly, and overall doesn't seem to have any sort of logic outside of "mages bad, lambert smash".

You should read the book. While I won't deny Lambert makes some bad decisions, there is a point in the book where he accuses Cole of being a demon who controlled Rhys to commit murders and uses well-reasoned arguments to defend his position. Rhys denies it for no reason other than that he feels sorry for Cole.
End of the book, guess what. Cole was a demon all along who mind controlled Rhys into commiting the murders in the tower.
There is a lot more to Lamber than your description would suggest.

Modifié par MisterJB, 31 octobre 2013 - 08:08 .

[ScarMK]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Um, Morrigan is greedy. This is one of her defining personality characteristics.

I'd stop bothering.  He's already played the blame card.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Uh, Morrigan is greedy and power hungry. This is one of her defining personality characteristics.

Well morrigan greedy isn't quite true power hungry yes but not greedy she will easily let wealth go for her stupid evil desires if she will lost fortune what is offered for saving burning orphanage she will just let them burn.

[MisterJB]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...
I think you're missing a key fact, that lambert is intentionally, and with sound body and mind, commiting treason against the divine, because he doesn't agree with her on a single issue. Just because he did his job, and obeyed her summons, doesn't make him any better of a person, it means he did his job. Meredith showed clear signs of insanity, abuses of power, and a disregard for the rules the templars are suppose to follow, especially when it came to tranquility. The divine however didn't, she seemed to be looking into more avenues to try and diffuse the tension between the circle and chantry, which lambert seemed to want to escalate into violence.

And I would like to know where the battle plans and army formations were being disccused by the circle enchanters, in their meeting to call what actions they would take. As much as I would like to believe you on good faith that they were all planning on setting up a new sith empire and had a death star blueprint ready to go, some actual in text proof would be nice. Talk of delusional succession isnt grounds for martial law, if it was texas would have been placed under it years ago, along with hawaii. And on the slime chance they do vote on it, the divine can just overrule it, so that's not even an issue at this point.

Besides, lambert showing incompetence and storming into a vote to go and arrest someone he suspects of a crime doesn't give me any confidence in him. Why he couldn't have waited until after the meeting to arrest rhys is beyond me.

Tensions between the Chantry, Templars and Circle were reaching a breaking point. Resolutionists and other mage terrorists were attacking population centers and even the Divine herself; meanwhile, mages had lost a great number of freedoms and two Circles had already been Annuled.
When that meeting was called, Fiona called for a vote of secession knowing fully well that that would lead to a war with the Templars.
Now, I will agree that Lambert commited a mistake when he barged into the meeting but, had his schemes suceeded, it would have actually averted the war. Had Evangeline accepted the assistance of the Templars he sent and killed Wynne & Co and destroyed the evidence that Tranquility can be cured, the conclave wouldn't have been called in the first place. And had the Divine not interfered, Lambert might have convinced Rhys to claim Cole had mind controlled Fiona into proposing the secession (which would have allowed him to spare the First Enchanters which was what he wanted) or he would have killed/Tranquilized them all.
One way or another, the mages wouldn't have gathered in Andoral's Reache to vote for war.

Did Lambert made a mistake in barging into the conclave? Yes, he did but the Divine made one much worse when she actually assisted the mages in escaping.
If the Divine will kill Templars and sabotage their efforts to fulfill their duties, I see no reason why they should hold any loyalty towards her whatsoever. Clearly, she also showed an abuse of power plus a clear disregard for the duties of the Templars.

[cjones91]

If this were real life then what Lambert did would have caused him to face trial for treason.You don't disobey your country's leader just because you don't like him/her.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...
I think you're missing a key fact, that lambert is intentionally, and with sound body and mind, commiting treason against the divine, because he doesn't agree with her on a single issue. Just because he did his job, and obeyed her summons, doesn't make him any better of a person, it means he did his job. Meredith showed clear signs of insanity, abuses of power, and a disregard for the rules the templars are suppose to follow, especially when it came to tranquility. The divine however didn't, she seemed to be looking into more avenues to try and diffuse the tension between the circle and chantry, which lambert seemed to want to escalate into violence.

And I would like to know where the battle plans and army formations were being disccused by the circle enchanters, in their meeting to call what actions they would take. As much as I would like to believe you on good faith that they were all planning on setting up a new sith empire and had a death star blueprint ready to go, some actual in text proof would be nice. Talk of delusional succession isnt grounds for martial law, if it was texas would have been placed under it years ago, along with hawaii. And on the slime chance they do vote on it, the divine can just overrule it, so that's not even an issue at this point.

Besides, lambert showing incompetence and storming into a vote to go and arrest someone he suspects of a crime doesn't give me any confidence in him. Why he couldn't have waited until after the meeting to arrest rhys is beyond me.

Tensions between the Chantry, Templars and Circle were reaching a breaking point. Resolutionists and other mage terrorists were attacking population centers and even the Divine herself; meanwhile, mages had lost a great number of freedoms and two Circles had already been Annuled.
When that meeting was called, Fiona called for a vote of secession knowing fully well that that would lead to a war with the Templars.
Now, I will agree that Lambert commited a mistake when he barged into the meeting but, had his schemes suceeded, it would have actually averted the war. Had Evangeline accepted the assistance of the Templars he sent and killed Wynne & Co and destroyed the evidence that Tranquility can be cured, the conclave wouldn't have been called in the first place. And had the Divine not interfered, Lambert might have convinced Rhys to claim Cole had mind controlled Fiona into proposing the secession (which would have allowed him to spare the First Enchanters which was what he wanted) or he would have killed/Tranquilized them all.
One way or another, the mages wouldn't have gathered in Andoral's Reache to vote for war.

Did Lambert made a mistake in barging into the conclave? Yes, he did but the Divine made one much worse when she actually assisted the mages in escaping.
If the Divine will kill Templars and sabotage their efforts to fulfill their duties, I see no reason why they should hold any loyalty towards her whatsoever. Clearly, she also showed an abuse of power plus a clear disregard for the duties of the Templars.

Justinia and for that matter Evangeline were the only two people who followed their morals.

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...

If this were real life then what Lambert did would have caused him to face trial for treason.You don't disobey your country's leader just because you don't like him/her.

If my country's leader was arguing for the release of nuclear weapons into the wild, I'd disobey her as well.

[Lotion Soronarr]

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Yeah, I'd say Lambert had EVERY right to lock them all up untill he figured up who was involed in the murders and the friggin DEMON.

For the record, we do not know if Cole is a demon. And also, the mages beyond Adrian, Rhys, and Wynne, knew NOTHING of Cole. The mages were attacking because of Lambert's restrictions and oppression.

Restrictions? There was a demon/abomination or whatever cole was on the loose, killing mages. Otehr mages were plannig nsecession.

It's not opression to break upthatmeeting and lock everyone up untill they can investigate.
Lambert doesn't know how many mages are implicated yet.
Quit acting like what you know is common knowledge for everyone in theDas.
People can only act on information they have.

My god, the arrogance...

It is hardly stupid or blind to want to be treated like real people instead of some creature less than human.

My God, the stupidity..

They aren't treated like less than human. They are treated like extreemly dangerous people, which they are.

[Lotion Soronarr]

eluvianix wrote...

Nah, he is just protecting one of his/her own, as a friend or a commander. Siding with Anders does not necessarily mean you are choosing a side.

Are you dense?
Interfering in Chantry buisness, destroying Chantry property?

Hell, the templars would have every legal right to kill the WC on the spot.

Except the Chantry has no dominion over the Wardens.

And the Wardens don't have authority over the Chantry, nor the right to trespass or destroy it's property.

Cullen says more mages are being born every day

I don't think he ever specifi9cly said theiur numbers are increasing OR if so, at what rate.
Just that newe are born, and thus the Templar work is never done - which is true.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

If this were real life then what Lambert did would have caused him to face trial for treason.You don't disobey your country's leader just because you don't like him/her.

If my country's leader was arguing for the release of nuclear weapons into the wild, I'd disobey her as well.

But nuclear weapons don't have sentience or human rights.  Thats where the issue gets muddled. Its the fact that we need to constantly put on a double standard,  while pretending there is no double standard,  in order to have a remotely stable system of living. No one can judt say "yes this is unfair and immoral, now shut up and deal with it." In all honesty lambert was acting in a highly immoral, and not amoral, way. And I will also give you that through his pretty evil actions he probably would have averted a war, in the same way killing everyone whose unemployed cuts down on your unemployment numbers.

If they embraced evil, most of the problems with the mage templar issues would be avoided. Templars raping mages? Mindwipe the templars and turn them into eunichs. Mages getting routey? Tranquil them all, we could use more runes anyway. Population revolt? That's what swords are for. Evil is just so much easier when it comes to solving hard problems. 

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 31 octobre 2013 - 08:58 .

[Lord Raijin]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

If this were real life then what Lambert did would have caused him to face trial for treason.You don't disobey your country's leader just because you don't like him/her.

If my country's leader was arguing for the release of nuclear weapons into the wild, I'd disobey her as well.

Mages aren't nucelar weapons. They're people and elves with feelings. You treat them right and they'll treat you right, but if you treat them poorly they will create Fraternities among the Circle and create a rebellion against you at all cost.

The mages are very much like the Forsworn of Skyrim. To the uneducated eye they're nothing but savages, but once you hear their stories and how their being oppressed you'll actually understand their causes.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lord Raijin wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

If this were real life then what Lambert did would have caused him to face trial for treason.You don't disobey your country's leader just because you don't like him/her.

If my country's leader was arguing for the release of nuclear weapons into the wild, I'd disobey her as well.

Mages aren't nucelar weapons. They're people and elves with feelings. You treat them right and they'll treat you right, but if you treat them poorly they will create Fraternities among the Circle and create a rebellion against you at all cost.

The mages are very much like the Forsworn of Skyrim. To the uneducated eye they're nothing but savages, but once you hear their stories and how their being oppressed you'll actually understand their causes.

now explain why my chaotic evil inquisitor should care about that?Well you can treat peoples well but still when times comes they will backstab you and trade for that what they want peoples are monsters.  

[Lotion Soronarr]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Apparently Wynne is just a better person than Anders and didn't corrupt the spirit inside her

Anders and his spirit merged and Anders wasn't really anders anymore. His mind wasn't just his anyone.

For Wynne...well, I never saw any indication of the spirit being present at all. It's like it didn't affect her mind at all.

Maybe the spirit of Faith works differently? Maybe it was a different kind of relationship? Who knows.

[MisterJB]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...
But nuclear weapons don't have sentience or human rights. Thats where the issue gets muddled.

This I agree with.

Lord Raijin wrote...
Mages aren't nucelar weapons.

 Unless I'm mistaken, even David Gaider has compared them to nuclear weapons.

They're people and elves with feelings.

 People and elves.

You treat them right and they'll treat you right,

I can defeat this argument with one word.
Tevinter.

[Mr.House]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Apparently Wynne is just a better person than Anders and didn't corrupt the spirit inside her

Anders and his spirit merged and Anders wasn't really anders anymore. His mind wasn't just his anyone.

For Wynne...well, I never saw any indication of the spirit being present at all. It's like it didn't affect her mind at all.

Maybe the spirit of Faith works differently? Maybe it was a different kind of relationship? Who knows.

Or maybe Wynne was simply a stronger person then Anders.

[Mr.House]

Lord Raijin wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

If this were real life then what Lambert did would have caused him to face trial for treason.You don't disobey your country's leader just because you don't like him/her.

If my country's leader was arguing for the release of nuclear weapons into the wild, I'd disobey her as well.

Mages aren't nucelar weapons. They're people and elves with feelings. You treat them right and they'll treat you right, but if you treat them poorly they will create Fraternities among the Circle and create a rebellion against you at all cost.

The mages are very much like the Forsworn of Skyrim. To the uneducated eye they're nothing but savages, but once you hear their stories and how their being oppressed you'll actually understand their causes.

You just ruined your argument by compairing them to forsworn WHO ARE savages.

Also people and elves. Wow.... That's not racist....

Modifié par Mr.House, 31 octobre 2013 - 09:08 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If she is, I have a hard time imagining she's SO much stronger that the difference between them is years of slowly descending into insanity and losing oneself vs seemingly no internal struggle whatsoever. The difference is night and day.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 31 octobre 2013 - 09:08 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lord Raijin wrote...

No I dislike her because she kept getting involved in every aspect of my Wardens life. She treats my Warden like a child who can't think for himself. She tells my Warden that seeking love is selfish, and that he should be focusing his attention of others; like I'm suppose to be everyones pet. She never sought true love in the Circle, and here I'm suppose to seek relationship advices from this woman? Sometimes it's best to STFU if you truly don't know what you're talking about.

Becoming a Warden is sacrificing your life for Duty. Duty above all else.
A Warden is already dead, having max 30 years left to live.
As such, her telling you that is not stupid - it's wise.

When I romance Morrigan all she does is trash talk her right in front of me... calling her dangerous and etc. You would feel the same if someone like Wynne was trash talking your woman.

I'd take a good look at my woman.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 31 octobre 2013 - 09:21 .

[Lord Raijin]

MisterJB, Mr. Gaider also demonstrated about how mages aren't going to put-up with such abuse.

Tevinter does not represent all mages. Mages are mages. Just because you free mages doesn't mean that they're going to start capturing people, and enslaving them, and worship the black Chantry.

[Mr.House]

Mages are mages, but elves are not people. Seems legit.

[Lord Raijin]

Mr.House wrote...
You just ruined your argument by compairing them to forsworn WHO ARE savages.

Also people and elves. Wow.... That's not racist....

You are blinded by the facts. The Forsworn got screwed by the Nords. They took their land and everything else. They enslaved their kind (Bretons) and used them to mine up silver so they can get filthy rich. Learn your Elders Scroll lore.

Yeah... People and elves... don't they have feelings?

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 31 octobre 2013 - 09:20 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

If this were real life then what Lambert did would have caused him to face trial for treason.You don't disobey your country's leader just because you don't like him/her.

If my country's leader was arguing for the release of nuclear weapons into the wild, I'd disobey her as well.

But nuclear weapons don't have sentience or human rights.

And that makes them any less dangerous HOW exactly?

No, that only makes them MORE dangerous. At least when you safely store a nuk,e you know it won't go off by itself.

No one can judt say "yes this is unfair and immoral, now shut up and deal with it."

Yes they can.
That is life. Unjust and crappy things over which one has littlee to no power happen all the time.

[TheKomandorShepard]

It is more about emotions at least that negative one wynne went into anders mode in asunder when she was furious.To be honest whether it justice changed anders or just experience hey he was grey warden with their philosophy that end justify means and growing desperation through da 2 it isn't surprising that he becomed well intentioned extremist.

On the other hand is spirit have influence well i can't take that wynne attacks you because ashes and strange coincidence that her spirit and she isn't very religious .

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 31 octobre 2013 - 09:20 .

[MisterJB]

If you're going to make a simplistic and absolute claim like "treat mages well and they'll treat you well", then all I have to do is point to an entire society created by mages on the backs of enslaved non-mages who gave no provocation whatsoever in order to defeat it.
Life is so much more complex than that.