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[Jedi Master of Orion]

I did actually consider the tear in the Veil was something related to Elven mythology as soon as I saw it. It was just a guess though.

My theory is Flemeth is behind the tear, and that she's specifically working for (or against) Fen'Harel. She does appear to have some sort of connection to the Dalish. The creatures that poured out were unlike anything we've seen yet. They could just be new designs for demons from the fade we conveniently haven't been shown before, but if they are something different perhaps they are creatures from the Abyss, wherever that is, where the Forgotten Ones were sealed away.

I don't think Corypheus speech in Legacy disproves the Chantry's story. His dialogue is still unclear sounding to me. Nobody in the party acted like it did, quite the opposite in fact.

I think of Redemption as mostly canon. It didn't get everything right (like the templars not being allowed to marry) but Felicia Day did do a lot of research for it and it otherwise seems to fit into continuity more or less. So I think "ambiguously" is the best way to put it.

Also there are only 3 Forgotten Ones, not 7 as far as anyone knows.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Double post:huh:

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 15 juin 2013 - 09:41 .

[garrusfan1]

BlueMagitek wrote...

This must be retribution for Hawke and Warden slaughtering Dalish clans left and right. :/

That's actually a pretty good catch. I wasn't aware of such a thing. We have Merrill's Eluvian and Morrigan stealing the book on Dalish Lore / using the Eluvian. So there may be more truth to it.

this is true but my warden never kills the clan and never kills the dalish clan. also OP this is a good catch and I cause the elves screwed up

[WhiteKnyght]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I don't think Corypheus speech in Legacy disproves the Chantry's story. His dialogue is still unclear sounding to me. Nobody in the party acted like it did, quite the opposite in fact.

I think of Redemption as mostly canon. It didn't get everything right (like the templars not being allowed to marry) but Felicia Day did do a lot of research for it and it otherwise seems to fit into continuity more or less. So I think "ambiguously" is the best way to put it.

The Chantry says the Magister's corrupted the Golden City with their sin. The verse itself even says "And so is the Golden City blackened, which each step you take in my hall. Marvel at perfection, for it is fleeting." But Corypheus says that the Black City was darkened when they arrived. They never saw the golden light they were promised by Dumat. The Chantry also says that the Magisters were trying to usurp the Maker's throne as an act of arrogance. But Corypheus says the Magisters were invited to the Golden City by Dumat and it was a gift to them.

So he's contradicting the Chantry's largest justification for the persecution of mages.

As for Redemption...

Felicia Day is not wrong about the Templars and marriage. When an initiate takes their final vows, they also take an oath of celibacy(thats why a lot of templar recruits go to the brothels), but a templar can be rewarded for meritorious service by being allowed to marry. According to the writers at least.

The only lore error in Redemption is Cairn's reference to Cassandra as being the head of the Seekers of Truth. But at that point in time, Asunder hadn't even been printed yet, much less published, and everybody was assuming she was because of DAII's ending.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

This is going to start a whole other argument and I don't want to derail the thread but Corypheus said "It was black...corrupt...darkness ever since..." which sounds like it's been black ever since he went there. Corypheus said Dumat offered "the power of the gods themselves," and the city was "supposed to be ours." David Gaider said that the Golden City was believed to be seat of an absent creator even in ancient times, so that still sounds like the magisters trying to to usurp the Maker's throne to me. I don't think that there's just one possible interpretation of his words.

Plus, Anders' reaction is "What, the Chantry is right!?" rather than "I knew the Chantry was wrong!"

Also:

David Gaider wrote...
Templars do not take vows of chastity.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 15 juin 2013 - 11:03 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

This is going to start a whole other argument and I don't want to derail the thread but Corypheus said "It was black...corrupt...darkness ever since..." which sounds like it's been black ever since he went there. Corypheus said Dumat offered "the power of the gods themselves," and the city was "supposed to be ours." David Gaider said that the Golden City was believed to be seat of an absent creator even in ancient times, so that still sounds like the magisters trying to to usurp the Maker's throne to me. I don't think that there's just one possible interpretation of his words.

Plus, Anders' reaction is "What, the Chantry is right!?" rather than "I knew the Chantry was wrong!"

Also:

David Gaider wrote...
Templars do not take vows of chastity.

Ander's reaction was about the Magisters being the first darkspawn. Plus "believed to be" doesn't confirm anything. The Chant of Light also doesn't say a thing about there being an age before the creation of the veil when dragons ruled the world like Yavana informs Alistair of.

The Chant of Light also says there is only one world(if you listen to the priestesses chanting in Denerim), yet in Witch Hunt, Morrigan uses the Eluvian to travel to another world beyond the Fade.

The Chant also says that the spirits of the Fade are the Maker's first children. Yet they have no idea if the Maker exists, and those who do believe in him only know of him from entering the dreams of mortals.

Plus the fact that the Chantry is all "Everything in the chant is 100% true" when that's proven repeatedly to not be the case.

Also it's funny that David Gaider would say that, as he's the one who wrote Alistair's line in Origins where he(a Templar) stated after sleeping with a female warden that according to the priestesses who raised him in the Chantry that he should be struck dead by the Maker for fornicating.

Also if you are going to post a David Gaider quote, please post it all.

David Gaider wrote....

Templars do not take vows of chastity.

Chantry priests are considered "married" to the Maker-- though it's
not an actual marriage, just a spiritual one-- and thus are indeed
celibate.

For templars, the situation is not quite the same.
Their duties require them to be dedicated to their duties-- they're
going to live in a Circle of Magi (which does not have room for spouses
and families) or a chantry, or otherwise be pre-occupied. Marriage is
impractical, and the Chantry thus discourages such marriages as having
dependants introduces complications that templars can do without (as
well as a potential means of leverage).

That said, the Chantry
does occasionally give permission for templars to marry, provided the
spouse has their own means of support. This is often the case when the
spouse owns land or a title. Even so, considering the spouse wouldn't be
able to see the templar often, it's not going to happen frequently.
Before anyone asks, the Chantry also discourages templars from marrying
each other even more so-- that's considered fraternization within the
ranks (the templars are run as a military order, remember, and possess
the same discipline).

Mages within the Circle are permitted to
marry, but it's impractical with outsiders and they also must get
permission from the Chantry (so it might be considered a reward for good
behavior). Even so, the culture within the typical Circle of Magi tends
to make mages unwilling to marry. The policy on fraternization will
depend on the individual Circle-- some forbid it, while others do not,
though in either case it still occurs. Considering mages live outside
normal culture, they also consider themselves free of cultural
conventions (especially those who were raised in a Circle from a young
age) and thus tend to be quite liberal in their views.

So perhaps Cairn was referring to the fact that he's not permitted to marry unless he finds a woman the Chantry approves of.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

"Discouraged" =/= "Forbidden." Carin says templars are "not allowed to marry" because they are "wed to the Church."

You also said that templars take vows of celibacy. I was pointing out that according to David Gaider both of those statements are incorrect. The part I posted says as much and the rest of the quote does not say otherwise so posting it all was not necessary.

The Chantry also believes there is a land beyond the Fade where the righteous go to sit beside the Maker. This doesn't seem to contradict their belief in one world. Neither does the existence of the Fade itself. I imagine the clergy seems to consider this all part of one world.

Justice says he doesn't know if those spirits that believe in a creator only know him from the dreams of mortals or because of their own knowledge.

My point was if Corypheus believed that the City was the seat of an absent creator (as was said to be the case back then), then he'd have been arrogantly trying to usurp the Maker's throne.

Plus if he was saying the City was always black, it struck me as strange that nobody seems to notice in the party. You'd think it would be a big enough deal to mention. Especially from Anders, who seemed to be looking for anything to disagree with Chantry doctrine at the time.

I'm not saying that I believe everything the Chantry believes necessarily, just that I don't think Legacy was an explicit example of proving them wrong.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 16 juin 2013 - 12:21 .

[LobselVith8]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Ander's reaction was about the Magisters being the first darkspawn. Plus "believed to be" doesn't confirm anything. The Chant of Light also doesn't say a thing about there being an age before the creation of the veil when dragons ruled the world like Yavana informs Alistair of.

Considering that Anders believed in the fable of the Golden City in Awakening and the main Dragon Age II game, I didn't see the point to rectonning Anders' views about the Golden City. It made little sense from the perspective of his character, since he argues with Merrill a few times over her refusal to see things from the perspective of an Andrastian who genuinely believes in the religious teachings of the Chantry.

Frankly, it would have been nice if Hawke had the option to express that he didn't believe in the fable of the Golden City, since it would've been nice to have some options to shape who my protagonist is - rather than hearing Anders (who even mentioned the fable of the Golden City to Hawke) say that the Chantry was right when that's exactly the opposite reaction I got from Corypheus' admissions.

[jessielou]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...

The lore for Fen'Harel and the war between the Dalish Pantheon and the Forgotten Ones talks about how he convinced the Forgotten Ones to return to the abyss they came from in exchange for the defeat of the Dalish gods. He then figured out a way to seal them off from reality forever.

It might be that the Forgotten Ones and the Old Gods are one in the same. Deceiving the Magisters by convincing them to enter the Black City, causing them to build Kirkwall in an area where the Veil is thin with the intent of weakening it further, and Coryphaeus statement that the city in the Fade was always black, and the remark that there is no Maker by a Rage Demon in the Denerim Alienage quest in DAO might suggest that the idea of the Maker and all of the actions done in his name are a part of an elaborate scheme on the part of the Forgotten Ones to escape the prison Fen'Harel put them in. Kind of like the Call of Cthulhu.

That "seal them off" part might have been the Veil. Since Yavana stated that the veil wasn't always there and the Fade and Physical world were once the same. Which makes a semblence of sense, considering the power of the Mask of Fen'Harel is to sunder the veil.

Although if the Old Gods are the Forgotten Ones, it could explain why they gave humanity the power of Blood magic that they used to destroy the Elvhen. The Arlathan Elves worshipped the Creators, who were their enemies, and a human society worshipped them instead. It's also noteworthy that there are seven Old Gods and seven Forgotten Ones.

As for the creators, they're probably the ones trapped in the Fade

As for Fen'Harel being the Maker, it's a good argument, though whether Fen'Harel actually created humanity is unclear, they could just be pawns.

As for Flemeth, I don't think she's any iconic figure from history. She may be an outside factor, a dragon sorceress who wants to return the world to the good old days when Dragons ruled the world.

Where do you get that there were seven Creators and seven Forgotten Ones?  I thought there were eight Creators, nine if you include Fen'Harel and three possibly four Forgotten Ones.  Even so, I lean toward the theory that Fen'Harel is the Maker (though I don't believe he made anything), and that he sealed the Creators and Forgotten ones away and created the Veil.

Also, I don't think that Corypheus confirmed or denied the state of the Golden/Black City when the magisters arrived.  It could have been corrupted the instant they arrived and that was all they saw since it was instantaneous, or it could have been corrupted before they got there.  Or it could have never been Golden in the first place and was always Black.

Personally, I think it was always black.  That the city was where the Forgotten Ones were imprisoned, and that the idea of the Golden City was just a ruse to get them there.  Being the prison of the gods of terror,malice, spite, and pestilence, the magisters were immediately afflicted and turned into the first darkspawn.  

That's where I think this is going anyway. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Only three Forgotten Ones are named in the Codex entry.

"There is not a hahren among us who remembers these others: Only in dreams do we hear whispered the names of Geldauran and Daern'thal and Anaris, for they are the Forgotten Ones, the gods of terror and malice, spite and pestilence." — Codex Entry: Fen'Harel: The Dread Wolf

Frankly, it would have been nice if Hawke had the option to express that he didn't believe in the fable of the Golden City, since it would've been nice to have some options to shape who my protagonist is - rather than hearing Anders (who even mentioned the fable of the Golden City to Hawke) say that the Chantry was right when that's exactly the opposite reaction I got from Corypheus' admissions.

I'm pretty sure you can when Corypheus first shows up and Anders is there. I can't remember the exact dialogue but you have an option to agree with Anders and say the story is "ridiculous."

I heard that the new book says that the Dalish believe the Creators are sealed away in the Black City. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me but I guess I have to assume that is the lore the Dalish have until we're told anything else. Which, I guess, means the Forgotten Ones are believed to be sealed away somewhere specific elsewhere.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 16 juin 2013 - 04:48 .

[azarhal]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

That doesn't make a lot of sense to me but I guess I have to assume that is the lore the Dalish have until we're told anything else. Which, I guess, means the Forgotten Ones are believed to be sealed away somewhere specific elsewhere.

The Dalish lore (Fen'Harel betryal tale) already says they were sealed in the Abyss, which most people take to mean underground, but now thinking about it.

Could the Forgotten Ones be what was just liberated. O_O

[jessielou]

azarhal wrote...


The Dalish lore (Fen'Harel betryal tale) already says they were sealed in the Abyss, which most people take to mean underground, but now thinking about it.

Could the Forgotten Ones be what was just liberated. O_O

That part reminds me of the underground city Tamlen saw through the Eluvian before he disappeard and the Dalish warden was infected with the darkspawn corruption.  It's one of the reasons I think that Arlathan might be the Golden/Black City.  

The Tevinter Magisters supposedly used magic to cause the land to swallow Arlathan whole.  It makes me think that the actual city is underground and that the Black City you see in the Fade is the spiritual representation/manifestation of it.  

I also think that the magisters traveled to the Black City through an Eluvian.  They figured out how to use them for communication but not for travel.  I think that's how Dumat led them to the Black City, he taught them how to use one as a portal, and maybe the Black City they went to wasn't in the Fade as they thought but in the physcial world.

Modifié par jessielou, 16 juin 2013 - 11:21 .