465 réponses à ce sujet

[Kel Riever]

Ravensword wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

In all honesty, the people defending synthesis as a virtuous action have tested my will to live over the last year. I can't believe that there are people that are like this. I can only assume that some of these people are not trolls, and legitimately think that messing around with other people's bodies like this is okay...

My faith in the human race has dipped dramatically...

You must be referring to Auldie and Seival.

To be fair, Auld Wulf and Seival are not the people I would ever credit for representing the Synthesis arguments.  They're just koo koo.

[KaiserShep]

jtav wrote...

And for the love of God, rewriting the heretics is a Paragon choice. It gives 30 Paragon points. Destroying them gives 30 Renegade. Paragon is not "good." It comes in the "save lives no matter what" and "stick to principles no matter what" flavors just as Renegade comes in "practical" and "jerk" flavors.

Heck if you tell Legion that it's unethical or whatever to rewrite them, he basically tells you that this is irrelevant, because it's either rewrite them, or destroy them. 

[AlanC9]

Bill Casey wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Wrong about what exactly?

That we must commit atrocities to achieve...

So the moral equivalent of the ME3 ending choices can't ever happen ITRW?

How come? God wouldn't let it?

[Bill Casey]

I don't believe in God...
I don't believe we have to do horrible things to succeed...
There's always another way...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 juin 2013 - 04:23 .

[KaiserShep]

Bill Casey wrote...
I don't believe we have to do horrible things to succeed...
There's always another way...

Don't you find it the least bit ironic that the entire trilogy is basically you killing hundreds of people to succeed? 

[CronoDragoon]

KaiserShep wrote...

Heck if you tell Legion that it's unethical or whatever to rewrite them, he basically tells you that this is irrelevant, because it's either rewrite them, or destroy them. 

Substitute Legion for Catalyst there and you can see some similarities.

Very few choices in Mass Effect are actually difficult. Most are neatly set up thanks to the P/R system to reward you no matter what. This system really shows its limitations in choices such as the geth heretic decision, since it must arbitrarily decide whether destroy or rewrite is "Paragon". Myself I felt destroying the heretics was more Paragon.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 26 juin 2013 - 04:35 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

AlanC9 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Wrong about what exactly?

That we must commit atrocities to achieve...

So the moral equivalent of the ME3 ending choices can't ever happen ITRW?

How come? God wouldn't let it?

"No good deed goes unpunished."

Obviously that's hyperbole. A good deed can go unpunished. That quote doesn't come from nowhere, though, it comes from the fact that many people taking the moral high-road have often done so at a cost -- sometimes as high as their life or their freedom -- whereas not taking it would have saved them from pain. It is not a just world.

ME3's ending punishes all decisions in some way -- right or wrong -- save for maybe some instances of Destroy.

On a side-note, this discussion has gotten good! I'm particularly proud of my last post ITT. Like a slam-dunk right over another player -- feelsgoodman.jpeg.

[Sir DeLoria]

I always go rage against the machines. Destory Geth whenever I can, wherever I can. Legion's 'I wanna be a real boy' dialogue really annoyed me. Well to be fair I let them live, if I can make peace, but it ends up in me backstabbing them anyway.

[KaiserShep]

The geth do make good cannon fodder though.

[AlanC9]

Bill Casey wrote...

I don't believe in God...
I don't believe we have to do horrible things to succeed...
There's always another way...

At least attributing it to God made sense. This is just wishful thinking.

[Sir DeLoria]

KaiserShep wrote...

The geth do make good cannon fodder though.

It's the only thing they're good at. Well, to be fair they did play housekeeper for Rannoch, while the Quarians were gone.

[CronoDragoon]

Bill Casey wrote...
I don't believe we have to do horrible things to succeed...

If you are saying we shouldn't have to do this in ME3, then that is up to the player's tastes. (for the most part I agree as a Paragon who's ridden the easy-decision train for 2.9 games)

If you're saying this isn't how it works IRL then there's plenty of historical evidence to the contrary.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 26 juin 2013 - 04:51 .

[AlanC9]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Obviously that's hyperbole. A good deed can go unpunished. That quote doesn't come from nowhere, though, it comes from the fact that many people taking the moral high-road have often done so at a cost -- sometimes as high as their life or their freedom -- whereas not taking it would have saved them from pain. It is not a just world.

Once again I find myself thinking of the Melian Dialogue.

[Sir DeLoria]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...
I don't believe we have to do horrible things to succeed...

If you are saying we shouldn't have to do this in ME3, then that is up to the player's tastes. (for the most part I agree as a Paragon who's ridden the easy-decision train for 2.9 games)

If you're saying this isn't how it works IRL then there's plenty of historical evidence to the contrary.

That's entirely situation dependant. Yes, horrible things are necessary sometimes and yes, most of the time there is a better way, but you can't generalize here. If a better way is impossible to achieve, go for the morally best solution(e.g. choosing Quarians over Geth, Destroy over Control, destroy over rewrite). 

[scootermcgaffin]

Destroy. Destroy is the only decent ending.

Like on Virmire, sometimes you can't save everyone.

[scootermcgaffin]

Heck, I'd say Geth over Quarians is "morally better"

...but I hate Quarians so that may be my space-racism talking.

[Sir DeLoria]

Imanol de Tafalla wrote...

Necanor wrote...

If a better way is impossible to achieve, go for the morally best solution(e.g. choosing Quarians over Geth, Destroy over Control, destroy over rewrite). 

I fail to see how these choices are morally superior than their alternatives.

Because Synthetics are simply lesser than organics. Also, the majority of Quarians are civilian non-combatants, the Geth don't have civilians.

[Sir DeLoria]

scootermcgaffin wrote...

Heck, I'd say Geth over Quarians is "morally better"

...but I hate Quarians so that may be my space-racism talking.

Oh, so you're one of those people who'd gladly commit genocide because you have a pet peeve against a few individuals. Well, I'm glad my Shep isn't Space-Stalin.

Modifié par Necanor, 26 juin 2013 - 07:03 .

[scootermcgaffin]

Necanor wrote...

scootermcgaffin wrote...

Heck, I'd say Geth over Quarians is "morally better"

...but I hate Quarians so that may be my space-racism talking.

Oh, so you're one of those people who'd gladly commit genocide because you have a pet peeve against a few individuals. Well, I'm glad my Shep isn't Space-Stalin.

Killing all geth is genocide too! Don't be a hypocrite just because you think a few individuals are cuter than robots. (see I can do it too! )

[Sir DeLoria]

scootermcgaffin wrote...

Necanor wrote...

scootermcgaffin wrote...

Heck, I'd say Geth over Quarians is "morally better"

...but I hate Quarians so that may be my space-racism talking.

Oh, so you're one of those people who'd gladly commit genocide because you have a pet peeve against a few individuals. Well, I'm glad my Shep isn't Space-Stalin.

Killing all geth is genocide too! Don't be a hypocrite just because you think a few individuals are cuter than robots. (see I can do it too! )

Yeah, but you chose destroy afterwards, eradicating both races. Wouldn't it be better to let the race live, that can actually survive the war?

[scootermcgaffin]

Well actually my Shepard brokers peace and I don't do anything but click on dialogue options.

Besides, even if my Shepard did let all the quarians die (and he absolutely would if peace wasn't an option -- he tries to get them to break off the attack and they won't. Their destruction is their fault), he could still very easily choose Destroy. He doesn't know how the Crucible works at that point.

Modifié par scootermcgaffin, 26 juin 2013 - 07:14 .

[Sir DeLoria]

scootermcgaffin wrote...

Well actually my Shepard brokers peace and I don't do anything but click on dialogue options.

Yeah ok, I always do the same. Touché.

[scootermcgaffin]

Necanor wrote...

scootermcgaffin wrote...

Well actually my Shepard brokers peace and I don't do anything but click on dialogue options.

Yeah ok, I always do the same. Touché.

We cool. 

Modifié par scootermcgaffin, 26 juin 2013 - 07:14 .

[Dextro Milk]

Edit - Got 'd, peace has been brokered.

Modifié par Dextro Milk, 26 juin 2013 - 07:28 .